Protests in Wisconsin - Scott Walker

Newtons Bit said:
:rolleyes:

You might think that's cute, but it's not. Here's the summary: the only link you provided that was remotely on-topic shows that union workers make significantly more than non-union workers of similar education when one looks at the numbers with an honest eye.
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:boggled: Isn't that is the point? Unions get workers better deals. Did I say somewhere they didn't? The question is, are the unions getting WI workers excessive amounts and are the unions responsible for the budget shortfall in WI?

When you compare the Wisconsin teachers to their peers, they make average pay. And when you compare WI government workers to WI non-government workers, you don't find a bunch of overpaid non-fireable government workers.


Where's the evidence the unions are the problem?
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
There are also organized farm workers that don't own their own land.
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Ah yes, the UFW. The most ineffective union on the planet, their members all live in poverty and do dangerous work in horrid conditions and get no benefits. All that illegal immigration activism has really paid them dividends!

Skeptic Ginger said:
The point is the same: little guys organizing to gain some equality with the big guys.
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Those "little guys" are already pretty damn wealthy. Show me a dairy cartel member, and I'll show you a farmer worth tens of millions of dollars. They should all be illegal, but these wealthy farmers back in the day managed to buy off enough legislators to protect them from the legal action any other cartel would face. If the poor people don't like payng $5/gal for milk they can drink something else, gotta protect the corporate profits of the cartel.

This is the first time I've ever seen you take the corporation's side over citizen interests SG! Never thought I'd see the day. :boggled:
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
When you compare the Wisconsin teachers to their peers, they make average pay. And when you compare WI government workers to WI non-government workers, you don't find a bunch of overpaid non-fireable government workers.
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Teacher do make about average pay compared to other teachers. I've stated this. But then I looked at the other workers. And they are overpaid.
 
WildCat said:
...
This is the first time I've ever seen you take the corporation's [referring to dairy farmers] side over citizen interests SG! Never thought I'd see the day. :boggled:
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:)
Yes, it must create some cognitive dissonance for some to figure out when the poor exploited workers becomes "the man". I've been curious as to exactly where the dividing line is. Apparently, pension plans that are so out sized that they threaten political stability are not enough. I think it is possible we will see some new political divisions arise on this as the people being taxed become less enthused about supporting huge politically driven pension giveaways that were made before they were even born.
 
WildCat said:
Ah yes, the UFW. The most ineffective union on the planet, their members all live in poverty and do dangerous work in horrid conditions and get no benefits. All that illegal immigration activism has really paid them dividends!


Those "little guys" are already pretty damn wealthy. Show me a dairy cartel member, and I'll show you a farmer worth tens of millions of dollars. They should all be illegal, but these wealthy farmers back in the day managed to buy off enough legislators to protect them from the legal action any other cartel would face. If the poor people don't like payng $5/gal for milk they can drink something else, gotta protect the corporate profits of the cartel.

This is the first time I've ever seen you take the corporation's side over citizen interests SG! Never thought I'd see the day. :boggled:
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I wasn't talking about dairy farmers. Are there even any small dairies left in the US? I was talking about poor farmers in third world countries.

See Fair Trade for an example.
 
davefoc said:
:)
Yes, it must create some cognitive dissonance for some to figure out when the poor exploited workers becomes "the man". I've been curious as to exactly where the dividing line is. Apparently, pension plans that are so out sized that they threaten political stability are not enough. I think it is possible we will see some new political divisions arise on this as the people being taxed become less enthused about supporting huge politically driven pension giveaways that were made before they were even born.
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There's a divide between rich and poor. One might argue if the cut off is the top 1% of wealth owners or income earners, or the top 5%. But if you are in the bottom 80% you are probably on the side of the little guy. If you are in the bottom 60% you most definitely are.
 
CNN cited some interesting numbers this morning I haven't yet had time to look into. They showed the rich and poor divide began increasing and was at its peak just before the Great Depression and the levels reached the same gap before the most recent Great Recession.

That correlates with my belief that without a middle class with disposable income, the economy slows. Consumers no longer have money to spend.
 
We need to punish success more.

Redistribute wealth.

Level the playing field.

We're all equal and deserve the same things in life regardless of our efforts.
 
deepatrax said:
We need to punish success more.

Redistribute wealth.

Level the playing field.

We're all equal and deserve the same things in life regardless of our efforts.
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You must be a big Obama supporter. Lowest tax rates since WWII.
 
deepatrax said:
We need to punish success more.

Redistribute wealth.
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That's what the Republicons started doing in 1981. They redistributed it upward and they are still at it.

Level the playing field.
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That's called "civilized behavior."

We're all equal and deserve the same things in life regardless of our efforts.
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Who said that? Not I. Not most liberals.

We just feel that a working man deserves a decent living for a decent day's work.
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
I wasn't talking about dairy farmers. Are there even any small dairies left in the US? I was talking about poor farmers in third world countries.

See Fair Trade for an example.
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Now now SG, I admit Wisconsin ain't exactly in the 21st century but I wouldn't call it 3rd World yet.
 
deepatrax said:
"Bush" when he didn't want them...but "Obama" now that he can claim them?
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He didn't want them for the upper crust. He wanted to keep them in place for the middle class, but realized that he was stuck with a giveaway to the fat class or he would have the righties in the Senate going all hormonal and getting nothing else done for the rest of the term of congress.
 
deepatrax said:
ok fair enough.

but it is interesting how things get labeled a cut. since these "cuts" didn't lower taxes this time around.
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Thank God the top 2% didn't get any more breaks. We can't afford to go on subsidizing their lazy butts.
 
respect said:
The biggest lie of the pro-union crowd is the notion that unions gave them their standard of living. Poor subsistence farmers can unionize all they want, they will still be poor subsistence farmers and work just as many hours. Capitalism, free markets, comparative advantage etc gave them their standard of living. Those created the wealth to give them a comfortable living despite only working 40 hours a week. Unions played a role, labor as a supplier of labor of course can negotiate its own supply. But let's not forget that labor only negotiated getting some of the spoils of production for itself, but unions did not create those spoils, market activity did. Professional level private sector employees get good wages and benefits without unions for a reason, they create wealth. Non-professionals struggle to get good wages for a reason, they do a job anyone can do and contribute little to wealth creation. Non-union doctors do fine, union cashiers still can't make a good living. It is no secret why. And unions that join with politicians to set wages above market levels destroy jobs. If the price sank to optimal levels there would be more demand.
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Key word.
Two sides negotiate, come to an agreement, sign a contract, and abide by the terms or face legal consequences. The state and local elected officials crying about their budgets are apparently such terrible stewards of the public funds that they should be fired or at least have their salaries and benefits cut.
 
fishbob said:
Key word.
Two sides negotiate, come to an agreement, sign a contract, and abide by the terms or face legal consequences. The state and local elected officials crying about their budgets are apparently such terrible stewards of the public funds that they should be fired or at least have their salaries and benefits cut.
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That's a great point and one I haven't seen yet. The budget should have included the agreed upon salaries. The reality is either the elected officials spent more then they should have and/or the screwed up the budget and/or tax revenues didn't meet expectations.

Now they are blaming the people who work for a living and trying to screw them over. I agree with fishbob. Those officials should resign or be fired.
 
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