My argument against materialism

I can't agree that "transcendent platonics" don't "exist" in some form.

I think Robin has a point here, Pi has a value which must always remain the same. Provided one accepts the existence of circles and spheres.

If we imagine our known universe never existed and another universe popped into existence, very different to ours.
If there were spheres and circles present, Pi would be present also in a latent form.

Pi would be as fundamental in the manifestation of this imaginary universe as time or space. You cant have one without the other.

You can't have space without Pi.

Still not true, pi is a human contruct, it may be a construct that applies in many circumstances, but that does not mean it is not a human construct. It is a label. It may even be a label that other sentient beings could derive.

Labels have meaning to those who use them, they do not have meaning outside of a communicant.

And sure you can have a universe without pi, you are in essense confusing maps with reality. The word 'tree' does not exist outside or communicants apply the label through a series of external refferants, there is no meta-space where the word tree exists.

There are no trascendant Platonics.
 
With respect you should allow for there being more than one big bang in existence. I see no evidence for there being one of anything.

Only as speculation, maybe, maybe not.

Under current models the point is moot.

What brand of shoes do angels where at the Pinhead disco?
 
I understand this and would have to agree that "nothing" is impossible given your definition.
However I think I would refine that to;

"nothing" cannot "exist", but may be possible provided no thing were to exist.

I maintain my position that "nothing" is the most logical state of affairs and things are problematic.

Why do we have things/existence atall?

You assume that nothing is the most logical state.

The last question has no answer, we are here, that is the data point we have. At this time we can not see 'outside' of here or 'before' here.

Here being the universe.
 
With respect you should allow for there being more than one big bang in existence.
We can only live in one universe. Ours started with a big bang. I already stated more than once that there may be other universes, potentially created from other big bangs.

I see no evidence for there being one of anything.
Do you see any evidence for more than one? Occam's Razor mean anything to you?

Should I allow for there being more than one of you? more than one JREF?

If you're trying to make or argue a point, please just do it. I'm now bored with trying to translate your posts to extract dribbles of meaning, and your responses suggest you're unable to follow or understand what we're talking about.
 
So an infinitely long rod would have both infinite qualities while also having form.
Given general relativity the rod would inevitably curve around and join its beginning forming a ring
I'd like to see how you derive that using GR.

So what you're saying is that you can't have an infinitely long rod - it would be a ring? Does this ring have an infinite circumference?

.. in order to be truly infinite as the rod were being measured the "person" taking the measurement would become locked in a pattern of infinite revolutions around the ring and would never reach the end.
:boggled: you're just trolling, aren't you?
 
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So an infinitely long rod would have both infinite qualities while also having form.
Then this compromises your definition of form.
Given general relativity the rod would inevitably curve around and join its beginning forming a ring, in order to be truly infinite as the rod were being measured the "person" taking the measurement would become locked in a pattern of infinite revolutions around the ring and would never reach the end.
The above paragraph makes no sense.

There is a possible geometry of universes where rods can only do this, but given such universes, you cannot describe the rod as infinitely long. If it helps, go two dimensional and consider a geometry like the surface of a sphere similar in size to the earth. The longest possible line on this surface would be the size of its "equator", about 40,000 km. That would not be infinitely long.

Furthermore, that's a possible geometry, and it's not a consequence of GR that the universe has this geometry.
I can conceive of no other way in which a finite thing could also be an infinite thing.
An infinitely long rod is not a finite thing. It does has a finite measure in one dimension and an infinite measure in another.

It sounds like you're wanting to grant "form" to this object, but to argue that form means it's finite, so you're trying to make it easy by slipping it into your definition. But per your definition, "form" is simply another way of saying "finite", nothing more.

I think you want to define form differently. From the way you're using it, "form" is something more along the lines of "state".
I agree about "nothing", it sounds odd, but I think it can exist as a concept.
But concepts are abstract things. To speak of "nothing" as if it were a thing is to commit a reification; to talk about its properties is to talk about it as a thing.

Think of it this way. If something does not emit a lot of light, we'll say that it's black. A lump of charcoal, for example, does not emit a lot of light--so it's black. Would you say that nothingness, since it does not emit a lot of light, is black?

We can treat nothingness as a concept. But we can't treat it as a thing.

ETA:

It seems you're establishing a pattern here--you're committing the same kind of error twice.

In your definition of form, you're imagining what "must be so", and are using it to formulate (no pun intended) your definition. In other places, you're saying that nothingness is the "most logical" state of affairs, but you have no legitimate argument that nothingness is the "default" (why wouldn't existence be the default? It's what we actually see!)

In both cases, you're presuming that you can somehow argue up properties of actual entities in universes. But that is the problem--you cannot. You can't use pure logic to figure out what Nature is like; she is her own entity and not obliged to follow your notions. She is what she is, and she does what she does. The only way to figure out what she is is to ask her; and the only way to figure out what she does is to play with her.

Don't try to speculate her into a box--it doesn't work. Just go talk to her! Don't be shy.
 
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Here we go again... How what behaves? The concept? Or the shape? Doesn't matter, both questions are nonsensical. Maybe you were thinking about a third one?



The gravitational singularity? In that case, the above question makes even less sense, if at all possible.



Could someone translate that for me, please?

Looks like he's trying to hide god in the word 'infinity'.
 
And let me clarify here and say that I don't believe that "transcendent platonics" exist.

Pi is the logically necessary result of applying certain operations to certain axioms and it would be that logically necessary result in any possible world.

There does not need to be any transcendent realms to store logically necessary results.

I hope I was not putting words in your mouth about transcendent platonics.

I agree there is no need for a transcendent realm here. The implication is that the relation between the circumference of a circular or spherical object and the diameter of said object if measured, would be Pi in any possible world.

Thus the value of Pi is intrinsic in all spherical or circular objects.

We have evidence of spherical objects in the known universe including "matter".

I can only conclude that Pi is as intrinsic in the formation of matter as say space or time is an intrinsic requirement.
 
I appologise if I am being obtuse, it is not easy to put these ideas into words.
I do also appreciate that such things may have been discussed at length before.

I see what you are saying about there being no infinitude of matter in the known universe. Perhaps there are untold numbers of universes beyond the known universe.

I will try to describe the position I am adopting in this thread;

I refer to Cantors "absolute infinite"

My position is similar to his, I consider an absolute infinity if it exists to be formless, not subject to time or space. This formlessness would include an infinitude of forms potentially.

Also that, say the energy forming all matter was somehow an expression of this potentiality and that time and space were a consequence of this formation, ie a relativity necessary for the form of matter to be manifest.

If one considers that spacetime is some kind of dimensional construct, the impression of time and space is an illusion or abstraction. all points of time and space are actually in the formless point of potentiality.

There is no distance or time between the forms and the infinite form of potentiality.

This concept is well understood in more theological ideas and is known as God imminent.
It has occured to me that ideas such as this should be considered by materialists, if not as a reality at least a model to be played around with.

I think you meant:

Adjective

immanent (comparative more immanent, superlative most immanent)
Wikipedia has an article on:
Immanent

1. Naturally part of something; existing throughout and within something; inherent; integral; intrinsic; indwelling.
2. Restricted entirely to the mind or a given domain; internal; subjective.
3. (philosophy, metaphysics, theology, of a deity) existing within and throughout the mind and the world; dwelling within and throughout all things, all time, etc. Compare transcendent.
4. (philosophy, of a mental act) Taking place entirely within the mind of the subject and having no effect outside of it. Compare emanant, transeunt
.


Unless you're talking about the second coming.

This might seem like a small spelling error to you but I think it reflects on a lack of rigor in your analysis.
 
Then this compromises your definition of form
.
"So an infinitely long rod would have both infinite qualities while also having form".
Sorry I should have pointed out, this was me stating your hypothetical rod as I interpreted it.


The above paragraph makes no sense.

I agree the idea of an infinite finite thing does not make sense, I was exploring how such a rod might appear to be infinite.

There is a possible geometry of universes where rods can only do this, but given such universes, you cannot describe the rod as infinitely long. If it helps, go two dimensional and consider a geometry like the surface of a sphere similar in size to the earth. The longest possible line on this surface would be the size of its "equator", about 40,000 km. That would not be infinitely long.

I agree.



Furthermore, that's a possible geometry, and it's not a consequence of GR that the universe has this geometry.

I introduced GR in an attempt to visualise your rod.

An infinitely long rod is not a finite thing. It does has a finite measure in one dimension and an infinite measure in another.

I cannot accept that such a rod can exist, even as a concept.

Perhaps you can explain the form of this rod?

It sounds like you're wanting to grant "form" to this object, but to argue that form means it's finite, so you're trying to make it easy by slipping it into your definition. But per your definition, "form" is simply another way of saying "finite", nothing more.

Well I accept that an ant could trace an infinite course around my finger if it kept walking round it for an infinite period of time.


I think you want to define form differently. From the way you're using it, "form" is something more along the lines of "state".

Form is another way of saying finite, I was defining it for Pixy who had stated that he could not understand what I was saying.

But concepts are abstract things. To speak of "nothing" as if it were a thing is to commit a reification; to talk about its properties is to talk about it as a thing.

Yes I agree it is no thing, I may sometimes discuss it in this way as it is difficult to discuss something which has no properties.

Think of it this way. If something does not emit a lot of light, we'll say that it's black. A lump of charcoal, for example, does not emit a lot of light--so it's black. Would you say that nothingness, since it does not emit a lot of light, is black?

We can treat nothingness as a concept. But we can't treat it as a thing.

Yes I agree
ETA:

It seems you're establishing a pattern here--you're committing the same kind of error twice.

In your definition of form, you're imagining what "must be so", and are using it to formulate (no pun intended) your definition. In other places, you're saying that nothingness is the "most logical" state of affairs, but you have no legitimate argument that nothingness is the "default" (why wouldn't existence be the default? It's what we actually see!)

Yes, I see your point I was aware of this, I am leading towards a position between the two.

In both cases, you're presuming that you can somehow argue up properties of actual entities in universes. But that is the problem--you cannot. You can't use pure logic to figure out what Nature is like; she is her own entity and not obliged to follow your notions. She is what she is, and she does what she does. The only way to figure out what she is is to ask her; and the only way to figure out what she does is to play with her.

Yes again I was also leading to this, ref my next reply to Robin.

Don't try to speculate her into a box--it doesn't work. Just go talk to her! Don't be shy.

I do;)
 
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It is pretty easy to show that you are wrong here.

"Nothing" cannot be the most logical state of affairs because, by definition, "nothing" is not a state of affairs at all

As I have already said more than once, if "nothing" is possible then there can be no reason at all that there is something rather than nothing. It just is.

I don't see any room for doubt in this and am puzzled why you keep asking.

You see I don't rule out the "existence" of "nothing" as a potentiality in some form.

I should point out that when considering such things I also consider them as a reality in nature.

It is my opinion that we can only occasionally apply logical arguments directly, if atall to nature. I would not rule out "nothing" in nature.
As a rule of thumb I don't rule anything out.
 
I think you meant:

Adjective

immanent (comparative more immanent, superlative most immanent)
Wikipedia has an article on:
Immanent

1. Naturally part of something; existing throughout and within something; inherent; integral; intrinsic; indwelling.
2. Restricted entirely to the mind or a given domain; internal; subjective.
3. (philosophy, metaphysics, theology, of a deity) existing within and throughout the mind and the world; dwelling within and throughout all things, all time, etc. Compare transcendent.
4. (philosophy, of a mental act) Taking place entirely within the mind of the subject and having no effect outside of it. Compare emanant, transeunt
.


Unless you're talking about the second coming.

This might seem like a small spelling error to you but I think it reflects on a lack of rigor in your analysis.

Thanks tsig, I have been encountering a shortage of time at the moment.

Oh by the way, I see no need to hide God. There are plenty of unknown gaps left.;)
 
"So an infinitely long rod would have both infinite qualities while also having form".
Sorry I should have pointed out, this was me stating your hypothetical rod as I interpreted it.
By infinitely long, I mean that given any unit of measurement, and any finite number M, no matter how large, this rod is bigger than M.
I agree the idea of an infinite finite thing does not make sense, I was exploring how such a rod might appear to be infinite.
No. You misinterpret me. I said the paragraph does not make sense. You're saying you agree that "an infinite finite thing does not make sense". You can't agree with me on something unless I first agree to it.

Your paragraph didn't make sense because GR doesn't entail any particular geometry of the universe, nor is a line in an elliptical geometry universe aptly described as being of infinite length.
I introduced GR in an attempt to visualise your rod.
GR doesn't constrain the possibility at all.
I cannot accept that such a rod can exist, even as a concept.

Perhaps you can explain the form of this rod?
Not until you define "form". But when you say "I cannot accept that such a rod can exist", that should be a giant red flag. Nature doesn't care if you accept her or not. This is your hangup and yours alone.
Well I accept that an ant could trace an infinite course around my finger if it kept walking round it for an infinite period of time.
Okay, and I can accept that I can walk in a straight line around the earth for an infinite amount of time. But I can also walk around in circles for an infinite amount of time, or trace a square for an infinite amount of time, or even walk back and forth along a line two meters long for an infinite amount of time. None of those exercises establish the metric of those shapes.

Besides, you're saying that you can accept that an ant could trace an infinite coarse around your finger--would you then say that because the ant could do this, your finger is formless?
Form is another way of saying finite, I was defining it for Pixy who had stated that he could not understand what I was saying.
Then why do you say "form" and not "finite"? And why do you say that the fact that form means finite means that a rod cannot be shaped such that x^2+y^2<r^2 for any point on the rod in a Euclidean universe?

Calling something finite "form" is just a label; presumably all it does is classify objects. But stating that rods cannot be shaped like x^2+y^2<r^2 is prescriptive--that is a claim about the possible universes you can have.

You cannot make things true by defining them into being true.
 
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