Protests in Wisconsin - Scott Walker

[Skeptic Ginger]

You're the one claiming he's doing it to destroy unions. You provide the evidence to support your claim. I can't read his mind. I have posted figures on the budgets of the state that show he may have a point, however.

This is so typical of people supporting some false propaganda position they have bought into. I've posted link after link. I've supported my assertions multiple times.

You have no evidence because that is the nature of misleading talking points run through the right wing echo chamber, they are not based on facts, not based on evidence, these echo chamber talking points are based on loudly and frequently repeating the lie. That's all you need to do to get a substantial segment of the population to adopt the unsupported falsehoods as true. Just repeat it enough times with a straight face.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Your first link leads off with the already debunked claim that Walker created this crises with a ~100 million deficit. The second is the same . The third shows that people who don't have a degree (i.e. non-teachers) do in fact make substantially more than their private sector counter-parts.

Do you have anything that isn't an outright lie or supports the opposition?

You asked for evidence the wages of the workers were average. It's in the last link.

Trying to rehash stuff in the same post that was addressed 4 pages back as if no discussion followed is nothing but a red herring.

 

[Emperor_Gestahl]

http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2011/02/19/us/19union_graphic.html

Does this include benefits? If not it doesn't really settle anything..

 

[Newtons Bit]

You asked for evidence the wages of the workers were average. It's in the last link.

And it shows that some categories make substantialy more!

Trying to rehash stuff in the same post that was addressed 4 pages back as if no discussion followed is nothing but a red herring.

You're still stuck on this 100 million dollar lie, aren't you? And you complain about the other side using propaganda!

 

[Newtons Bit]

This is so typical of people supporting some false propaganda position they have bought into. I've posted link after link. I've supported my assertions multiple times.

Your links have been shown to be absolute . This is a problem for BILLIONS of dollars in deficits over two years. Not about a pittance 100 million!

 

[Emperor_Gestahl]

In terms of the current deficit, since no one wanted to give me a quote from Walker I found one myself.

http://www.thewheelerreport.com/releases/February11/0211/0211walkerletter.pdf

Many of you are aware of the immediate challenges facing our state. In the current fiscal year which
ends on June 30, 2011, we face a budget deficit of $136.7 million. We also owe more than $200 million
to the Injured Patients and Families Compensation Fund. Failure to immediately address this shortfall
could result in the state being unable to pay for health services to thousands of children and families in
Wisconsin’s BadgerCare program.

Looking to the future, our challenges are even greater. Over the next two years, the State of Wisconsin
faces a biennial budget deficit of $3.6 billion.

So yes, he did bring up the current deficit, part of which was created under his administration. But what about the other (larger) part? That $200 million that WI owes to the the Injured Patients and Families Compensation Fund, where did that debt come from?

http://www.jsonline.com/news/wisconsin/98824539.html

The state Supreme Court on Tuesday struck down lawmakers' 2007 raid of a medical malpractice fund, delivering a victory to Wisconsin physicians, a defeat to Gov. Jim Doyle and the Legislature, and a bruising blow of more than $200 million to the state budget.

$150M in conservative tax measures, getting caught illegally raiding a malpractice fund.. Can we call this one a draw?

 

[johnny karate]

$150M in conservative tax measures, getting caught illegally raiding a malpractice fund.. Can we call this one a draw?

It should be noted that the $200 million is not required to be paid within the current budget, so Walker calling that an "immediate challenge" and using it as a springboard to hamstring the unions is disingenuous.

And none of that takes into account the fact that the unions are willing to capitulate on the salary, benefits, and pension terms. All they want is to keep their collective bargaining rights.

Walker has refused them.

So let's see some numbers from Walker substantiating the fiscal necessity of taking those collective bargaining rights away.

 

[MattusMaximus]

He has rejected the unions giving him everything he wanted except taking away collective bargaining, the main part of unions in the first place. It isn't a stretch to say he rejects everything but destroying unions.

Yup, read between the lines, folks.

Not that you're doing this Newtons Bit, but it is interesting to see the reasoning many display. Unions are always good, or unions are always bad seems the default two, then it's worked backwards from that premise.

I'm a former union president and a current active member, and I can tell you that unions are neither all good nor all bad. Just as corporations are neither all good nor all bad. Just as Republicans, Democrats, Tea Partiers, Socialists, Libertarians are neither all good nor all bad.

But Gov. Walker is an asshat of the highest order

Hell, the man won't even listen to proposals for compromise from members of his own party, for frak's sake. What does that tell you?

 

[MattusMaximus]

Contracts are negotiated between two parties. If a government agency can change an agreement at will, then it is not really a contract and all bets are off. If the legislature unilaterally takes away collective bargaining, then the agreement to not go on strike is null and void.

The matter will end up in court and the decision will be that the government negotiated in bad faith. Penalties to follow and the taxpayers will not be happy.

And Gov. Walker will get kicked squarely in the ass come re-election time. Hopefully many of his cronies in the legislature as well.

 

[MattusMaximus]

there are many rights that we have simply due to legislative action, such as the right to vote, the right to not be slaves, the right to a trial by jury, etc etc.

if they take away the right to collectively bargain what will be the next right to fall?

Thunder, while you and I are on the same side in this, could you please consider toning it down just a tad? Seriously

 

[MattusMaximus]

How many of those are impacted by Walker's bill?

Police and firefighters are not.

Strange, because firefighters have shown up to the rallies in Madison, in opposition to Walker. They seem to think that once he's done with the other public sector unions, then they're next.

And they're right.

 

[Alferd_Packer]

It looks like the democrats in Indiana have fled to Illinois also to avoid a quorum on an anti union vote.


http://www.indystar.com/article/201...els-Not-time-right-work-bill?odyssey=nav|head

 

[Emperor_Gestahl]

It should be noted that the $200 million is not required to be paid within the current budget

Is that just an assumption? For you to know for sure that it doesn't need repaid during this budget cycle you'd need to know when it does need repaid by.. so when is that? (edit: and yes that's an admission that I don't know either)

So let's see some numbers from Walker substantiating the fiscal necessity of taking those collective bargaining rights away.

Is it fiscally necessary to close the current budget gap? Probably not, Walker himself estimates only $30 million in savings for the remaining months of the budget, and that's for the entire bill not just the collective bargaining aspect.

In other words he's not claiming that the collective bargaining restrictions are necessary to close the current budget gap of $137M, in fact he's stated plainly that it will not close that gap. Will the bill help to close the $3.6 billion shortfall for the upcoming biannual budget? Well that's not really the question, the question is "is that the best way to try and close that budget gap?" which is a political and philosophical discussion.

Personally, like FDR and many posters here I don't think collective bargaining (and certainly not striking) for public employees is a wise policy in the first place. I'm participating in this budget discussion, but my support of the bill itself is philosophical and unconnected to Wisconsin's finances.

I agree with Ginger (for all the wrong reasons) that it was cowardly of the republicans to exempt police and fire unions, saying we "can't afford a disruption in those services" (paraphrasing there). The excuse doesn't fly with me. if a police officer thinks politics is more important than protecting the public we're better off in the long run just firing that officer. Either Walker is blowing hot air with that excuse or they have much bigger things to worry about than money.

The teachers on the wildcat strike should probably be fired too, and doctors who are handing out fake sick slips should probably have their liscences revoked, but I say that only as a matter of principle. That said, anyone acting like kids getting a little extra video game time is some kind of national tragedy should be much more concerned by Walker's implication that police would stop defending them over legislation, or that firefighters would just watch houses burn.

 

[A Laughing Baby]

Strange, because firefighters have shown up to the rallies in Madison, in opposition to Walker. They seem to think that once he's done with the other public sector unions, then they're next.

And they're right.

There's already a decent amount of anti-firefighters' union sentiment in Alabama. I'm only speaking anecdotally, but there have been efforts already to drum up support for removal of firefighters' union rights.

ETA: full disclosure, I believe the right that is being used as the foot in the door is something concerning direct deposit of amounts of union members' paychecks into a fund within the union. The issue came up a month or two ago, and I'm hazy on the details. If there's interest, I'll dig around and find a link.

 

[Alferd_Packer]

Strange, because firefighters have shown up to the rallies in Madison, in opposition to Walker. They seem to think that once he's done with the other public sector unions, then they're next.

And they're right.

I'm not disagreeing with you on that.

 

[AlBell]

Hell, the man won't even listen to proposals for compromise from members of his own party, for frak's sake. What does that tell you?

That some people (unlike you - those who don't have a dog in the hunt) find some things 'not negotiable'.

 

[A Laughing Baby]

I think we're all missing the important question here. Why won't Obama compromise with Republicans on _____________?

 

[MattusMaximus]

Latest news. an out of state group (based out of Utah) is circulating petitions to target the absent democrats for recall.

http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com...group-wants-8-state-Senate-Democrats-recalled

Seems to be bluster to me (big surprise). If you read the comments on that article and then examine the WI Government Accountability Board website, it seems that what is needed is for someone living in the district in question (i.e., not Utah) to initiate the process. Link.

Not to mention, the recall process cannot be initiated until one full year after the official is seated. Link.

So, as I suspected, it is nothing but bluster

 

[MattusMaximus]

It looks like the democrats in Indiana have fled to Illinois also to avoid a quorum on an anti union vote.

http://www.indystar.com/article/201...els-Not-time-right-work-bill?odyssey=nav|head

Nice

 

[MattusMaximus]

That some people (unlike you - those who don't have a dog in the hunt) find some things 'not negotiable'.

I assume by "some people" you mean Gov. Walker?