Merged Applicability of Bazant's model to the real world

You have not answered the question.
Again, where was the actual initial failure for WTC 1 ?

Again. NIST report. Read it.

Nonsense. At the very simplest level, it changes the impact orientation and trajectory, of course. Also, of course, the damage caused by that impact is affected. Impact damage assessment is therefore also much less valid than it could have been if it wasn't for the pathetic input values used at step 1. Very poor.

Nonsense? Like your aircraft pod nonsense?

Once again. NIST engineers>>>>>>femr and his silly pixel fetish.




Grab a mirror, think pods, give your head a shake. Repeat if necessary.
 
I read the NIST reports and the only parts I could find that claimed to identify the WTC1 collapse initiation mechanism are reproduced below:


A condensed but thorough summary of how the NIST explain the initial sequence of buckling which led to collapse of WTC1 is in NCSTAR 1-6D, Ch 5, section 5.2, p312 to 318 (draft form from p305 to 312), in a section titled "WTC 1 Collapse Sequence" and 1-6draft 9.3.1, p 287-295 in a section titled "Probable collapse sequence of WTC1". Relevant sections are reproduced below.
...................

1-6D, p 312:

Table 5–1. Summary of main events that led to the collapse of WTC 1.
Event Number........ Event
1 .......................Aircraft impact
2 .......................Unloading of core
3 .......................Sagging of floors and floor/wall disconnections
4........................Bowing of the south wall
5 .......................Buckling of south wall and collapse initiation


1-6D, pg 314:

Bowing of South Wall

The exterior columns on the south wall bowed inward as they were subjected to high temperatures, pull-in forces from the floors beginning at 80 min, and additional gravity loads redistributed from the core. Figure 5–6 shows the observed and the estimated inward bowing of the south wall at 97 min after impact (10:23 a.m.). Since no bowing was observed on the south wall at 69 min (9:55 a.m.), as shown in Table 5–2, it is estimated that the south wall began to bow inward at around 80 min when the floors on the south side began to substantially sag. The inward bowing of the south wall increased with time due to
continuing floor sagging and increased temperatures on the south wall as shown in Figs. 4–42 and 5–7. At 97 min (10:23 a.m.), the maximum bowing observed was about 55 in. (see Fig. 5–6).

Buckling of South Wall and Collapse Initiation

With continuously increased bowing, as more columns buckled, the entire width of the south wall buckled inward. Instability started at the center of the south wall and rapidly progressed horizontally toward the sides. As a result of the buckling of the south wall, the south wall significantly unloaded (Fig. 5–3),
redistributing its load to the softened core through the hat truss and to the south side of the east and west walls through the spandrels. The onset of this load redistribution can be found in the total column loads in the WTC 1 global model at 100 min in the bottom line of Table 5–3. At 100 min, the north, east, and
west walls at Floor 98 carried about 7 percent, 35 percent, and 30 percent more gravity loads than the state after impact, and the south wall and the core carried about 7 percent and 20 percent less loads, respectively. The section of the building above the impact zone tilted to the south (observed at about 8°,
Table 5–2) as column instability progressed rapidly from the south wall along the adjacent east and west walls (see Fig. 5–8), resulting in increased gravity load on the core columns. The release of potential energy due to downward movement of building mass above the buckled columns exceeded the strain
energy that could be absorbed by the structure. Global collapse ensued.



1-6draft, p 288, Table 9-5 titled "Observations for WTC1", fifth entry:
and
1-6D, p 312, Table 5-2, last entry

Tower began to collapse – first exterior sign of collapse was at
Floor 98. Rotation of at least 8 degrees to the south occurred before
the building section began to fall vertically under gravity.

1-6draft p 290, figure 9-8 on probable collapse initiation sequence for WTC1:

3. Collapse Initiation
• The inward bowing of the south wall induced column instability, which progressed rapidly horizontally across the entire south face.
• The south wall unloaded and tried to redistribute the loads via the hat truss to the thermally weakened core and via the spandrels to the adjacent east and west walls.
• The entire section of the building above the impact zone began tilting as a rigid block (all four faces; not only the bowed and buckled south face) to the south (at least about 8º) as column instability progressed rapidly from the south wall along the adjacent east and west walls.
• The change in potential energy due to downward movement of building mass above the buckled columns exceeded the strain energy that could be absorbed by the structure. Global collapse then ensued.

1-6draft, p 294:

Buckling of South Wall and Collapse Initiation

The inward bowing of the south wall increased as the post-buckling strength of bowed columns continued to reduce. The bowed columns increased the loads on the unbuckled columns on the south wall by shear transfer through the spandrels. Consequently instability progressed horizontally, and when it engulfed the entire south wall, it progressed along the east and west walls. Moreover, the unloading of the south wall resulted in further redistribution of gravity loads on the south wall to the east and west walls and to the thermally weakened core via the hat truss. At 100 min, the north, the east, and the west walls at Floor 98 carried about 7 percent, 35 percent, and 30 percent more gravity loads than the state after impact, and the south wall and the core carried about 7 percent and 20 percent less loads, respectively. The section of the building above the impact zone began tilting to the south at least about 8° as column instability progressed rapidly from the south wall along the adjacent east and west walls, as shown in Fig. 9–13. The change in potential energy due to downward movement of building mass above the buckled columns exceeded the strain energy that could have been absorbed by the structure. Global collapse ensued.


1-6draft, p 317:

Finding 26: The WTC 1 building section above the impact and fire area tilted to the south as the structural collapse initiated. The tilt was toward the side of the building that had the long span floors. Video records taken from east and west viewpoints showed that the upper building section tilted to the south. Video records taken from a north viewpoint showed no discernable east or west component in the tilt. A tilt to the south of at least 8 degrees occurred before dust clouds obscured the view and the building section began to fall downwards.


.............................................................................

Dr Bazant also offers a condensed summary of what he believes caused the initial buckling sequence in WTC1 in B&V, p 2, column 1 in a section titled "Review of Causes of WTC Collapse". This section is reproduced below.

Dr Bazant, from Bazant and Verdure:

Review of Causes of WTC Collapse


Although the structural damage inflicted by aircraft was severe, it
was only local. Without stripping of a significant portion of the
steel insulation during impact, the subsequent fire would likely
not have led to overall collapse (Bažant and Zhou 2002a; NIST
2005). As generally accepted by the community of specialists in
structural mechanics and structural engineering (though not by a
few outsiders claiming a conspiracy with planted explosives), the
failure scenario was as follows:

1. About 60% of the 60 columns of the impacted face of framed
tube (and about 13% of the total of 287 columns) were severed,
and many more were significantly deflected. This
caused stress redistribution, which significantly increased the
load of some columns, attaining or nearing the load capacity
for some of them.

2. Because a significant amount of steel insulation was stripped,
many structural steel members heated up to 600°C, as confirmed
by annealing studies of steel debris (NIST 2005) (the
structural steel used loses about 20% of its yield strength
already at 300°C, and about 85% at 600°C (NIST 2005);
and exhibits significant viscoplasticity, or creep, above
450°C (e.g., Cottrell 1964, p. 299), especially in the columns
overstressed due to load redistribution; the press reports right
after September 11, 2001 indicating temperature in excess of
800°C, turned out to be groundless, but Bažant and Zhou’s
analysis did not depend on that).

3. Differential thermal expansion, combined with heat-induced
viscoplastic deformation, caused the floor trusses to sag. The
catenary action of the sagging trusses pulled many perimeter
columns inward (by about 1 m, NIST 2005). The bowing of
these columns served as a huge imperfection inducing multistory
out-of-plane buckling of framed tube wall. The lateral
deflections of some columns due to aircraft impact, the differential
thermal expansion, and overstress due to load redistribution
also diminished buckling strength.

4. The combination of seven effects—(1) Overstress of some
columns due to initial load redistribution; (2) overheating
due to loss of steel insulation; (3) drastic lowering of yield
limit and creep threshold by heat; (4) lateral deflections of
many columns due to thermal strains and sagging floor
trusses; (5) weakened lateral support due to reduced in-plane
stiffness of sagging floors; (6) multistory bowing of some
columns (for which the critical load is an order of magnitude
less than it is for one-story buckling); and (7) local plastic
buckling of heated column webs—finally led to buckling of
columns (Fig. 1(b)). As a result, the upper part of the tower
fell, with little resistance, through at least one floor height,
impacting the lower part of the tower.


In short, the long span floor trusses on the south side of the building began to sag, pulling in the south wall. The south wall eventually gives, and failure propagates from south to north as a result.

ProBonoShrill, do you have anything to add or can we take this as the NIST's understanding of the WTC1 collapse initiation mechanism?


If so, we can extract a bullet list of the features the NIST describes from these quotes, just like my features list. Does anyone have any other quotes from the NIST reports they would like to add to the list, or is this pretty complete?
 
Last edited:
In short, the long span floor trusses on the south side of the building began to sag, pulling in the south wall. The south wall eventually gives, and failure propagates from south to north as a result.

Nice to know. I didn't think my question about temperature/time in relation to sag was entirely meaningless
 
I read the NIST reports and the only parts I could find that claimed to identify the WTC1 collapse initiation mechanism are reproduced below:


A condensed but thorough summary of how the NIST explain the initial sequence of buckling which led to collapse of WTC1 is in NCSTAR 1-6D, Ch 5, section 5.2, p312 to 318 (draft form from p305 to 312), in a section titled "WTC 1 Collapse Sequence" and 1-6draft 9.3.1, p 287-295 in a section titled "Probable collapse sequence of WTC1". Relevant sections are reproduced below.
...................

1-6D, p 312:




1-6D, pg 314:





1-6draft, p 288, Table 9-5 titled "Observations for WTC1", fifth entry:
and
1-6D, p 312, Table 5-2, last entry



1-6draft p 290, figure 9-8 on probable collapse initiation sequence for WTC1:



1-6draft, p 294:




1-6draft, p 317:




.............................................................................

Dr Bazant also offers a condensed summary of what he believes caused the initial buckling sequence in WTC1 in B&V, p 2, column 1 in a section titled "Review of Causes of WTC Collapse". This section is reproduced below.

Dr Bazant, from Bazant and Verdure:




In short, the long span floor trusses on the south side of the building began to sag, pulling in the south wall. The south wall eventually gives, and failure propagates from south to north as a result.

ProBonoShrill, do you have anything to add or can we take this as the NIST's understanding of the WTC1 collapse initiation mechanism?


If so, we can extract a bullet list of the features the NIST describes from these quotes, just like my features list. Does anyone have any other quotes from the NIST reports they would like to add to the list, or is this pretty complete?

NIST's explanation seems plausible to me, until you can provide evidence that contradicts it.

I highly doubt you'll be able to convince me anyway, not that it isn't possible, it's just that your communication skills are sorely lacking (I hope your misspelling of my user-name was unintentional, otherwise you'd be guilty of breaking a forum rule).

I fully admit some of the videos and pictures provided by both you and femr are interesting, but it the grand scheme of things, your interpretation of them is really meaningless.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. I've yet to see any.

Unless you're willing to submit your work to a respected journal for peer review no one is going to take your criticism of Bazant and NIST seriously.
In fact that avenue might better suit for you two, it would enable you to stay on point, something you've trouble doing here.
Nonetheless, I think you'd be ridiculed just as badly as Heiwa was, so I can't blame you for not taking that road.

In the end, we're 100+ pages into this thread (72 in the other frequented by you) and you're no closer to proving 9/11 was an inside-job than you were when you first started.

If you and femr want to waste your time, go right ahead, like I've said previously, I'm just here for the LULZ and could care less, the truth movement is dead.

Have a nice day.
 
Nonsense. (My favourite Aussie word for bovine faeces falls foul of the language censor IIRC.) If you want a rigorous "accepted position" then the only "accepted position" is one that is right. Irrespective of the "mines bigger than yours" battle over qualifications... :)

This was a reply to tfk's statement that:

tfk said:
...The ONLY "accepted position" that amounts to anything more than a fart in a hurricane is the accepted position of qualified, experienced structural engineers...

I've noticed that the only people that cry and complain about qualifications are those who do not have any.....it's an "armchair quarterback" or in this case an "armchair qualified experienced structural engineer".

Whenever ANYONE makes such a reply to a statement like that (femr and MT make these kind of replies also) it shows a lack of understanding as to how engineering and science works in real life.
 
...I've noticed that the only people that cry and complain about qualifications are those who do not have any.....it's an "armchair quarterback" or in this case an "armchair qualified experienced structural engineer"....
thumbup.gif


...(femr and MT make these kind of replies also)....
...and they are outnumbered. :eusa_wall:
 
NIST's explanation seems plausible to me, until you can provide evidence that contradicts it.
So you don't actually have any idea what the actual initial failure for WTC 1 was then ?

I'm just here for the LULZ
And you clearly have very little knowledge or understanding of the topics being discussed. You are noise.

Have a nice day.
 
There is nothing left but an undisguised appeal to authority.

When we return to examine the NIST WTC1 collapse initiation scenario and compare it with real observations, we will see the same thing: Insults and desperate efforts to debunk details which are not understood well, followed by an undisguised appeal to authority.

It's a shallow well.
 
Last edited:
tfk said:
loss of insulation
femr2 said:
Largely speculative, especially given the level of uncertainty from many as-to where initial failure could have been.
tfk said:
Only to the mechanically incompetent.
femr2 said:
Interesting.

1) Where was the actual initial failure for WTC 1 ?

No reply yet tom.

1) Where was the actual initial failure for WTC 1 ?

tfk said:
physical damage from plane impact
femr2 said:
Largely speculative, especially given the poor level of accuracy of the NIST impact states.
tfk said:
Only to the ludicrously, laughably incompetent.
femr2 said:
WTC 2 impact trajectory and orientation used by NIST was WRONG. Not just wrong, but badly wrong. The reasoning behind their choice of parameters is clear. Very poor. And yep, still haven't bothered to take this beyond draft. Might get around to it...
http://femr2.ucoz.com/draft175.htm
http://femr2.ucoz.com/draft175-part2.htm

No reply yet tom.

2) Why is NISTs use of incorrect WTC 2 impact orientation and trajectory values not *ludicrously, laughably incompetent* ?

tfk said:
the enormously increased rate of creep because of the high stress levels
femr2 said:
So, do you think the the enormously increased rate of creep applies only from 9.5s in advance of release ?
tfk said:
I'm not incompetent.
I know the time scales over which creep operates.
I wouldn't confuse "creep" for "yield".

Not an answer to the question tom.

Movement of WTC1 features transitions from *none* to *significant* ~9.5s in advance of release.

3) Do you think the the enormously increased rate of creep you stated applies only from 9.5s in advance of release of WTC1 ?
 
[qimg]http://conleys.com.au/smilies/thumbup.gif[/qimg]


...and they are outnumbered. :eusa_wall:

What has that got to do with anything? Do you imagine yourself to be some sort of neutral referee whose duty it is to keep the argument even?
 
I've noticed that none of your posts contain any technical detail at all, and simply constant whining. You are noise.

Have a nice day.

Many of my posts do not....that is true. The reason for that is because pretty much everything discussed here was already debunked long before I ever joined this forum...so there really isn't anything new to add.

Others are doing a fine job of combing through your arguments and finding errors, so there is no need for me to repeat things that have already been pointed out several times by several people.

To be honest in the last few threads I have been reading I don't think you really have any technical details worth noting either....it's mainly speculative conclusions from videos of photographs.

(If you remember there was one thread where I was actually defending you not so long ago...)

If I think someone is being unreasonable against you then I will chime in, but so far this thread really does remind me of the conservation of momentum error you were making in another thread. I think you are being stubborn and are focusing on drawing conclusions from very fine details from videos and photographs.

For reasons given over and over again....

1. You are very likely overstating what can REALLY be concluded from those videos and photographs.

2. You seem to dismiss Bazant and NIST with little justification and focus on details of the collapse initiation/progression without giving any proof beyond video and photographic interpretations. Would you have us believe that all of these Engineers somehow missed what you claim can be deduced with your eyes alone? Really?

3. I think you are missing the forest for the trees on this one. This reminds me of when a Creationist wants details of every single chemical reaction that led to the development of an evolutionary trait and claims that if we don't know the exact details of all the chemistry then evolution is disproven.


Keep in mind that I do Engineering for a living every single day.....so unless I am at work or I am tutoring someone I usually don't sit around doing math/physics/engineering.

It just isn't a hobby for me like it is other Engineers....so while I might take the time to read the arguments back and forth on JREF and look for errors that either side might make...I usually do NOT take the time to sit down and write a technical post.

The only forum where I have been known to do that occasionally is at the Physicsforums.
 
pretty much everything discussed here was already debunked long before I ever joined this forum
Such as ?

Others are doing a fine job of combing through your arguments and finding errors
Such as ?

speculative conclusions from videos of photographs.
Such as ?

drawing conclusions from very fine details from videos and photographs.
Such as ?

1. You are very likely overstating what can REALLY be concluded from those videos and photographs.
You don't sound very sure about that.

2. You seem to dismiss Bazant and NIST with little justification
Incorrect.

and focus on details of the collapse initiation/progression without giving any proof beyond video and photographic interpretations.
Such as ?

Would you have us believe that all of these Engineers somehow missed what you claim can be deduced with your eyes alone? Really?
No. Highlighting inherent differences between the behaviour of an energetics based mathematical model, based upon a mode of destruction that clearly did not happen in the real world...and real-world observations, is not saying that anyone *missed* anything. Who would expect the Bazant an co model(s) to actually do so ? Anyone who does is rather missing the point and basis of said models by a wide margin. What part of that do you not understand ?

3. I think you are missing the forest for the trees on this one.
Which one ?

I usually do NOT take the time to sit down and write a technical post.
Anything else is pretty much classified as *addressing the arguer, not the argument*. Back-bench whining and blind agreement with folk you *approve of* is just pointless noise.

Quite a collection of baseless assertion going on up thar.
 
So you don't actually have any idea what the actual initial failure for WTC 1 was then ?


And you clearly have very little knowledge or understanding of the topics being discussed. You are noise.

Have a nice day.

You Clearly have a problem with reading comprehension femr, maybe you should get help for that. NIST, try reading it, THOROUGHLY.

I'm not an engineer, but I was blessed with a great ability to process logic, a trait you sadly lack.

Speaking of noise, how's the pod research going?

Have a nice day.
 
Such as ?

Such as ?


Such as ?


Such as ?

Femr2.....there are now over 2,000 posts in this thread....read through the posts by WD Clinger, tfk, etc.

You don't sound very sure about that.

That's because I'm not 100% sure and do have some doubt about my position.

Incorrect.

Such as ?

Again...this would simply be rehashing the discussion you have been having for the last 2,000 + posts.


No. Highlighting inherent differences between the behaviour of an energetics based mathematical model, based upon a mode of destruction that clearly did not happen in the real world...and real-world observations, is not saying that anyone *missed* anything. Who would expect the Bazant an co model(s) to actually do so ? Anyone who does is rather missing the point and basis of said models by a wide margin. What part of that do you not understand ?

I have to admit...there are a few threads where I have a difficult time figuring out what your actual position really is.....sometimes your posts don't really say much conclusively.

With that said here are some questions for you concerning Bazant specifically...

What part or parts of the Bazant papers do you believe are correct? Which parts are incorrect? How "close" in your opinion does Bazants model come to matching what you think happened in the real world?

Was Bazant *close* to the mark? Was he completely off? Do you think the models have absolutely no resemblence to the collapses as you see them?

Which one ?

Again....these specifics have been discussed over and over in this thread....


Anything else is pretty much classified as *addressing the arguer, not the argument*. Back-bench whining and blind agreement with folk you *approve of* is just pointless noise.

I approve of their arguments femr2....I don't see them making basic math or physics errors concerning concepts like conservation of momentum.

I don't see many errors in the calculations or physics they present as arguments.....all I have seen from you in this thread are videos and photographs and your opinion on what they do or do not imply.

And those conclusions are OBVIOUSLY very debatable, which should give you reason to doubt how valid your conclusions are.

Quite a collection of baseless assertion going on up thar.

Sorry you feel that way. *shrug*

Your argument simply are not very convincing. *shrug*
 
There is nothing left but an undisguised appeal to authority.

When we return to examine the NIST WTC1 collapse initiation scenario and compare it with real observations, we will see the same thing: Insults and desperate efforts to debunk details which are not understood well, followed by an undisguised appeal to authority.

It's a shallow well.

You can examine the collapse initiation until your face turns blue, you can trace tiny little pixels on a scree until the cows come home, NONE of it explains CD and it never will. So knock yourself out Champ.

Fire and impact damage caused steel to weaken, the surviving structure had trouble handling the remaining load and eventually collapsed, no CD needed.

Name it ROOSD, use the term Runaway Collapse, call it Sally for all I care, that you and femr are desperately trying to insinuate something else is responsible for the towers collapsing is laughable.

It's very apparent you don't not have the relevant math or science background to comprise a technical paper on this issue.
You make errors, others point them out to you and you remain oblivious to to them even after they're brought to your attention. Not good Tom.

You're having immense trouble here, one can only wonder how you'd fare in the technical world of peer reviewed engineering journals.

It's okay, I fully understand why you (along with femr) don't want to enter that arena.


Have a nice day.
 
Hey, I have a great Idea! :idea::idea::idea:

I will qoute a post like so:

You can examine the collapse initiation until your face turns blue, you can trace tiny little pixels on a scree until the cows come home, NONE of it explains CD and it never will. So knock yourself out Champ.

Fire and impact damage caused steel to weaken, the surviving structure had trouble handling the remaining load and eventually collapsed, no CD needed.

Then type: "Incorrect" below it like so:

Incorrect

Then quote more:



Name it ROOSD, use the term Runaway Collapse, call it Sally for all I care, that you and femr are desperately trying to insinuate something else is responsible for the towers collapsing is laughable.

It's very apparent you don't not have the relevant math or science background to comprise a technical paper on this issue.
You make errors, others point them out to you and you remain oblivious to to them even after they're brought to your attention. Not good Tom.

You're having immense trouble here, one can only wonder how you'd fare in the technical world of peer reviewed engineering journals.

It's okay, I fully understand why you (along with femr) don't want to enter that arena.


Have a nice day.

Then Type "Nonsense" below it as follows:

Nonsense!

And..VIOLA..I win the argument and prove my point!!!
 
What's wrong with a (non-fallacious) appeal to authority?

Because you cannot possibly read technical papers for comprehension that way.

No belief should be required to read equations. You must understand the derivation of the equations themselves to correctly understand the papers in question. If you do not, the author can tell you the sun rises in the west and you'd have no way to check the statement for accuracy.

That is indeed what happened to many JREF posters. Bazant said the upper block survives and many people believed him. Bazant said crush down must be complete before crush up begins for WTC1 and many people believed him. I have shown R Mackey, Newton's Bit, Dave Rogers and Myriad taking the upper block idea quite seriously. They actually believed it existed and they insulted me many times for thinking otherwise. Would you like me to reproduce the quotes?

People imagined upper blocks exist only because Bazant said so. You used no critical thinking to reflect whether the claim was true or false.

I don't think you even cared. It was just so you'd have that belief in some supreme authority, some Wizard of Oz. He didn't even need to be correct because you couldn't read the papers anyway.

It was the warm, group-think belief in the certainty of some supreme authority that you really needed, nothing more.

If you understood the progression of equations in BV, BL and BLGB, you would have never made such mistakes. You would have understood the assumptions that go into each equation.

Instead, you have wasted many, many hours of our time on this forum because you kept repeating the same incorrect statements over and over, all the time insulting me for my "lack of understanding".


I watch 8 months of BS posts by you only because you couldn't read the papers you defended. And you ask me what is wrong with your adulation of Bazant?

Equations shoudn't be "believed". They should be rederived and understood for what they really are and for what they are not.
 
Last edited:

Back
Top Bottom