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Continuation Part 2 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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Elsewhere on the internet someone posted that the hack who wrote "Angel Face" says that she has never called Amanda Knox a killer.

Anyone have a source for the author really saying that? That would be an obvious (and easily disproven) lie, so I'm skeptical that she would have.
 
Barbie Nadeau denies saying Amanda Knox is guilty

Elsewhere on the internet someone posted that the hack who wrote "Angel Face" says that she has never called Amanda Knox a killer.

Anyone have a source for the author really saying that? That would be an obvious (and easily disproven) lie, so I'm skeptical that she would have.


To Quote Barbie Latza Nadeau, author of - Angel Face: The True Story of Student Killer Amanda Knox :

Yet she denies that she is in the anti-Amanda camp. "There's a misconception of my view," she insists. "I have never once written that Amanda Knox is guilty. I don't know. I have covered this objectively and not taken sides. I think just because I don't write that Amanda Knox has been railroaded by corrupt Italian judiciary, people think I must think she is guilty." "But I am trying to maintain my objectivity as a journalist. I don't stand up for the prosecutor, I don't stand up for the Knox family, I stay very much in the middle."


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/profiles/the-knox-watchers-meet-the-people-who-are-obsessed-with-amanda-knoxs-fate-2124415.html#
 
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Well, there you go. Thanks for the assist, Draca.

I'd always taken it that her writings, as far as I'm familar with them, were done in good faith. But that she was just none too bright.

Didn't realize how cynical she actually is.*

Reading further down that article she admits that the prosecution's case was weak. I agree.


*Assuming she is being correctly quoted in this article.
 
After all these years that went by, I still can't understand how some people are unable to see that Knox and Sollecito are innocent.

Here's 9 reasons why people think they are guilty. They are in no particular order, and there are many other reasons as well. I've left out all of the witnesses and most of the forensics. Yes, many of these are circumstantial, but would who thinks Scott Peterson is innocent? After all, almost all the evidence against him is circumstantial and he has a motive.

1. Amanda’s lamp being found in Meredith’s room.

2. Raffaele’s changing alibi:
a) Amanda and I went to a friend’s party.
b) Amanda was with me in my apartment but went out for awhile.
c) We were together the entire night, made dinner, had sex, watched a movie, went to sleep.
d) I was awake and on my computer the entire night.

3. Amanda’s phone calls on November 2:
a) In the 48 minutes between 12:07 – 12:55 she spent a total of 23 seconds trying to phone Meredith though she stated she was “panicked” as to her whereabouts.
b) Amanda was back at her apartment by 12:34. The Postal Police did not show up for another 21 minutes with Meredith’s phones. Why didn’t Amanda stand outside Meredith’s door, call her phones and listen for rings? (She knew the phones were no longer in Meredith's room.)
c) Both Amanda’s mother and Filomena told Amanda to call the police based on what she told them...she didn’t. Both knew her Italian was poor, but they told her to call the police anyway...she didn't.

4. Raffaele’s call to the police:
a) He told them that nothing was taken from Filomena’s room. He knew that because he knew there was no break in.
b) He told the police “there is a lot of blood” when everyone at the scene agreed there was very little visible blood. He knew there was a lot of blood behind the locked door.
c) why would he even mention a closed door?

5. Raffaele’s lie in his prison diary regarding the knife and pricking Meredith with it.

6. Amanda’s behavior:
a) not flushing the toilet (who does not flush a toilet when they see feces in it?)
b) not looking in the murder room

7. bra clasp – it is Rafaelle’s DNA is on it.

8. evidence of a cleanup – FBI guy Steve Moore (who says he has seen all of the evidence) said no one could have left that room without blood on the bottom of their shoes.

9. Amanda knowing that Meredith's throat was slashed despite the fact that she came into no contact with anyone who would have had that information before she made that statement.
 
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Here's 9 reasons why people think they are guilty. They are in no particular order, and there are many other reasons as well. I've left out all of the witnesses and most of the forensics.


Are you simply trolling for a fight? Didn't you post this list before? All of these have been discussed extensively and none are even remotely evidence of guilt except in the minds of those that already believe she is guilty.
 
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Here's 9 reasons why people think they are guilty. They are in no particular order, and there are many other reasons as well. I've left out all of the witnesses and most of the forensics. Yes, many of these are circumstantial, but would who thinks Scott Peterson is innocent? After all, almost all the evidence against him is circumstantial and he has a motive.

1. Amanda’s lamp being found in Meredith’s room.

2. Raffaele’s changing alibi:
a) Amanda and I went to a friend’s party.
b) Amanda was with me in my apartment but went out for awhile.
c) We were together the entire night, made dinner, had sex, watched a movie, went to sleep.
d) I was awake and on my computer the entire night.

3. Amanda’s phone calls on November 2:
a) In the 48 minutes between 12:07 – 12:55 she spent a total of 23 seconds trying to phone Meredith though she stated she was “panicked” as to her whereabouts.
b) Amanda was back at her apartment by 12:34. The Postal Police did not show up for another 21 minutes with Meredith’s phones. Why didn’t Amanda stand outside Meredith’s door, call her phones and listen for rings? (She knew the phones were no longer in Meredith's room.)
c) Both Amanda’s mother and Filomena told Amanda to call the police based on what she told them...she didn’t. Both knew her Italian was poor, but they told her to call the police anyway...she didn't.

4. Raffaele’s call to the police:
a) He told them that nothing was taken from Filomena’s room. He knew that because he knew there was no break in.
b) He told the police “there is a lot of blood” when everyone at the scene agreed there was very little visible blood. He knew there was a lot of blood behind the locked door.
c) why would he even mention a closed door?

5. Raffaele’s lie in his prison diary regarding the knife and pricking Meredith with it.

6. Amanda’s behavior:
a) not flushing the toilet (who does not flush a toilet when they see feces in it?)
b) not looking in the murder room

7. bra clasp – it is Rafaelle’s DNA is on it.

8. evidence of a cleanup – FBI guy Steve Moore (who says he has seen all of the evidence) said no one could have left that room without blood on the bottom of their shoes.

9. Amanda knowing that Meredith's throat was slashed despite the fact that she came into no contact with anyone who would have had that information before she made that statement.

Thank you for compiling this list. Based on my understanding of the evidence:

1. Amanda's lamp in being Meredith's room does not prove anything. Meredith could have borrowed it. It could have been brought into the room by Rudy or by the police.

2. Raffaele's changing stories are evidence of confusion and/or marijuana use.

3. Amanda was "panicked." She wasn't thinking clearly. She spent 23 seconds (possibly standing outside Meredith's door, we don't know, do we?) trying to call Meredith's cell phone and getting no answer. Her panic grew. She could tell something was very wrong. She didn't know what to do. The police were called by Raffaele, the logical choice because he speaks Italian.

4. He told them nothing was taken, not because "he knew there hadn't been a break-in," but because items of value such as laptops were in plain view.

5. The knife pricking story is very odd, I agree. I can't explain or justify it. I can see how it makes him look very suspicious.

6. She didn't flush the toilet. Maybe she was in a hurry. Maybe it didn't bother her. Maybe it disgusted her and she wanted nothing to do with it. In my opinion, the unflushed toilet is evidence that no "cleanup" occurred. If she were trying to clean the place up after the murder, wouldn't she flush that toilet?

As for not looking in the murder room, I think she was pretty freaked out by the time they broke down the door and had a very bad feeling about what was in there. She was scared. She stayed in the kitchen.

7. The bra clasp DNA is being reviewed. It may have to be thrown out.

8. No one could have left that room without blood on their shoes...no one, that is, except the murderer. If Raffaele and Amanda were in that room, they would have gotten blood on their shoes. If there was a clean up, how did they manage to only remove traces of themselves and leave Rudy's traces intact?

9. Amanda heard the police talking about Meredith's manner of death outside the cottage.

The lack of any credible motive for Amanda and Raffaele is a huge flaw in the prosecution's case. The lack of credible witnesses is also problematic.

Without credible witnesses, a compelling motive, and strong forensic evidence, this case has "reasonable doubt" written all over it.
 
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6. Amanda’s behavior:
a) not flushing the toilet (who does not flush a toilet when they see feces in it?) ...

I think Amanda and Raffaele got railroaded, but I can understand why some of their odd behavior might invite reasonable people to be suspicious of them. But this business of the unflushed toilet is a distraction. According to some travelers, many residential Italian toilets hold little water in the bowl. If a deposit isn't targeted precisely, it lands on dry porcelain and has to be sent on its way with a brush. Cleaning up after someone else isn't just a matter of pressing a lever, and it's not hard to understand why someone might fail to do so, especially when they are worried about a possible break-in and a missing roommate.

For more than you ever wanted to know about this subject, see:
http://www.poopreport.com/Travel/Content/Italy/italy.html
 
1. Amanda's lamp in being Meredith's room does not prove anything. Meredith could have borrowed it. It could have been brought into the room by Rudy or by the police.

There is no evidence that Meredith borrowed it or that is was brought into her room by Rudy or by the police.

2. Raffaele's changing stories are evidence of confusion and/or marijuana use.

Smoking marijuana doesn't make someone forget an entire evening or re-invent it four times. His changing stories is more indicative of lying than smoking weed.

3. Amanda was "panicked." She wasn't thinking clearly. She spent 23 seconds (possibly standing outside Meredith's door, we don't know, do we?) trying to call Meredith's cell phone and getting no answer. Her panic grew. She could tell something was very wrong. She didn't know what to do.

Yet they spent at least another 21 minutes in her apartment before calling the police. And if she was so "panicked" about her "friend" why stop calling after just 23 seconds? I would have called non-stop, wouldn't you?

The police were called by Raffaele, the logical choice because he speaks Italian.

Ok.

4. He told them nothing was taken, not because "he knew there hadn't been a break-in," but because items of value such as laptops were in plain view.

Her laptop being visable is not the same thing as saying "nothing" was taken. He had never been in Filomena's room. He had no idea what valuable possesions she had.

5. The knife pricking story is very odd, I agree. I can't explain or justify it. I can see how it makes him look very suspicious.

We will see how this plays out in the appeal.

6. She didn't flush the toilet. Maybe she was in a hurry. Maybe it didn't bother her. Maybe it disgusted her and she wanted nothing to do with it. In my opinion, the unflushed toilet is evidence that no "cleanup" occurred. If she were trying to clean the place up after the murder, wouldn't she flush that toilet?

Amanda never stated that she was in a hurry, in fact, by that morning their trip to Gubbio seems to almost to be forgotten or pushed back to the afternoon. The unflushed toilet is the opposite of a cleanup, she deliberately didn't flush knowing what was in the bowl would lead back to Rudy.

As for not looking in the murder room, I think she was pretty freaked out by the time they broke down the door and had a very bad feeling about what was in there. She was scared. She stayed in the kitchen.

Who do you think present wasn't freaked out at that point? All the others probably had a bad feeling about it too, yet there were all there when the door was broken down. They wanted to see what was behind that door. Amanda and boytoy didn't - because they already knew.

7. The bra clasp DNA is being reviewed. It may have to be thrown out.

Again yes, we will see how this plays out in the appeal.

8. No one could have left that room without blood on their shoes...no one, that is, except the murderer. If Raffaele and Amanda were in that room, they would have gotten blood on their shoes. If there was a clean up, how did they manage to only remove traces of themselves and leave Rudy's traces intact?

How did Rudy leave Meredith's bedroom, walk to the bathroom, take off his sneakers, wash his feet, leave that footprint on the bathmat WITHOUT leaving shoeprints going from Meredith's bedroom to the bathroom? FBI guy Steve Moore says it's impossible.

9. Amanda heard the police talking about Meredith's manner of death outside the cottage.

How could Amanda have understood what the police were saying about the murder when her Italian was so poor that she couldn't even call the police about what she had seen?

The lack of any credible motive for Amanda and Raffaele is a huge flaw in the prosecution's case. The lack of credible witnesses is also problematic.

Motive is not a huge flaw in the prosecution's case as it is not required for the conviction of a crime. As for the witnesses, I will address that in another post.
 
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According to some travelers, many residential Italian toilets hold little water in the bowl. If a deposit isn't targeted precisely, it lands on dry porcelain and has to be sent on its way with a brush.

No mention of this by Amanda, Laura or Filomena...or more importantly, Amanda's defense team. In addition, I believe that Rudy's DNA came from the toilet paper, not the "deposit", which I believe both AK and RS said was in the toilet water, as the police found it.
 
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Thank you for compiling this list. Based on my understanding of the evidence:

2. Raffaele's changing stories are evidence of confusion and/or marijuana use.

You're new to this thread so perhaps you are not familiar with all the evidence.

There is no evidence that the reporter was using marijuana when she wrote that story.
 
newspaper article

2. Raffaele’s changing alibi:
a) Amanda and I went to a friend’s party.
b) Amanda was with me in my apartment but went out for awhile.
c) We were together the entire night, made dinner, had sex, watched a movie, went to sleep.
d) I was awake and on my computer the entire night.

[

Alt+F4,

2a comes from a newspaper article, does it not? Does it have any credibility? Why?

2d is based on what, exactly?
 
You failed to acknowledge any of the arguments put forward after the first time you posted your list here. What kind of game are you playing?

If those arguments held any weight, then you wouldn't be upset that I'm posting an updated listed of why I think the trio is guilty. I'm not playing any sort of game. I've researched the evidence available in this case and I've stated my position. Why do you think this is a game?
 
Here's 9 reasons why people think they are guilty.

Thanks for this list; I'm interested in understanding the reasons people believe what they believe, even if the reasons aren't very good.

Now, I'm going to attempt to explain why I don't think these are good reasons to believe in guilt. Since you yourself seem to think they are guilty, I'll be curious to see how you respond.


Yes, many of these are circumstantial, but would who thinks Scott Peterson is innocent? After all, almost all the evidence against him is circumstantial and he has a motive.

From a technical point of view, evidence is not classified into categories like "circumstantial"; the only thing that matters is how strong it is.

I'm not really familiar with the Peterson case, so all I can say is that if the evidence against him is really of the same level of strength as the evidence against Knox and Sollecito, then he should have been acquitted too.

1. Amanda’s lamp being found in Meredith’s room.

Although Amanda is presumably the single most likely person to have moved Amanda's lamp, she doesn't win this contest by very much, as moving it would have been incredibly easy for anyone to do. Keep in mind that Amanda' s room was right next to Meredith's.

If a lamp belonging to, say, Filomena had been found in Meredith's room, but otherwise everything else remained the same, how would your view of the case change?



2. Raffaele’s changing alibi:
a) Amanda and I went to a friend’s party.
b) Amanda was with me in my apartment but went out for awhile.
c) We were together the entire night, made dinner, had sex, watched a movie, went to sleep.
d) I was awake and on my computer the entire night.

(a) doesn't belong; that was never Raffaele's alibi for the night of Meredith's death, so far as I know. (b) was the result of the same sort of police interrogation that produced Amanda's statement about Lumumba. Raffaele's first and last account was (c); as for (d), it is consistent with (c) to within typical human consistency standards.

This kind of argument depends on an assumption that guilty people are significantly more likely to change their stories under police pressure than innocent people subject to similar pressure (by police who think they're guilty) -- an assumption that seems rooted in ignorance of how easy it is to manipulate people. (Ever seen an "exorcism"?)

3. Amanda’s phone calls on November 2:
a) In the 48 minutes between 12:07 – 12:55 she spent a total of 23 seconds trying to phone Meredith though she stated she was “panicked” as to her whereabouts.
b) Amanda was back at her apartment by 12:34. The Postal Police did not show up for another 21 minutes with Meredith’s phones. Why didn’t Amanda stand outside Meredith’s door, call her phones and listen for rings? (She knew the phones were no longer in Meredith's room.)
c) Both Amanda’s mother and Filomena told Amanda to call the police based on what she told them...she didn’t. Both knew her Italian was poor, but they told her to call the police anyway...she didn't.

Before getting into the nitty-gritty of these kinds of details, I'd like to make sure it's worthwhile. So let me ask you: do you really, truly think this kind of stuff raises the odds of guilt by more than a factor of, say, 1.1? This is real life, not a detective show, after all (where after the detective points something like this out, the suspect invariably either confesses or draws a weapon, thereby actually providing the strong evidence the detective didn't have). Do you honestly think that the behaviors above are so far outside of "normal" that they constitute significant evidence of homicide? Just how unlikely do you think it is that an innocent Amanda would have behaved in such a way?

4. Raffaele’s call to the police:
a) He told them that nothing was taken from Filomena’s room. He knew that because he knew there was no break in.

Have you considered the possibility that he just looked around, and it didn't look to him like anything had been taken? If not, why not? If so, why did you reject it?


b) He told the police “there is a lot of blood” when everyone at the scene agreed there was very little visible blood. He knew there was a lot of blood behind the locked door.

If you don't see this kind of "disagreement" among people every single day, you're not paying attention.

c) why would he even mention a closed door?

He and Amanda were concerned about Meredith's locked door.


5. Raffaele’s lie in his prison diary regarding the knife and pricking Meredith with it.

The consequence of his believing the knife DNA result. He should have admitted confusion and defied the data, but most people don't know how to do this.

6. Amanda’s behavior:
a) not flushing the toilet (who does not flush a toilet when they see feces in it?)
b) not looking in the murder room

See my response to 3. above.

7. bra clasp – it is Rafaelle’s DNA is on it.

In my opinion, this is the best evidence of guilt there is; I'd put it at 5 to 10 decibels' worth. Still overwhelmingly likely to be the result of contamination, given the unbelievably sloppy handling that has been amply documented, plus the fact that it would so strongly imply guilt if legitimate.

8. evidence of a cleanup – FBI guy Steve Moore (who says he has seen all of the evidence) said no one could have left that room without blood on the bottom of their shoes.

Why is this incompatible with Moore's theory -- shared by virtually all innocentisti -- that Guede was the sole killer?

9. Amanda knowing that Meredith's throat was slashed despite the fact that she came into no contact with anyone who would have had that information before she made that statement.

Detective-story stuff again. She had plenty of contact with other people who would have known or would have been spreading speculative rumors based on partial information overheard from police etc.
 
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You failed to acknowledge any of the arguments put forward after the first time you posted your list here. What kind of game are you playing?

At the risk of being handed another infraction, I suggest you Google "Alt F4" for a clue as to what kind of game Alt F4 is playing.
 
Why the hostility? It was posted in response to a request for arguments supporting guilt.

Alt+F4 is repeating the same arguments over and over and not listening to the responses. I've answered her twice about the phone calls and yet she continues to believe that this is a sign of guilt.

What to you think. The facts you can read in Massei that Amanda had made 3 calls to Meredith's phones. The last two received responses that the phone was not accessible on the network and redirected straight to voice mail. Knowing that all cell phones have caller ID and notification of missed calls, what would be the purpose of calling those phones again? Or as Alt+F4 says: "I would have called non-stop".

I am reminded of a quote attributed to Albert Einstein: "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."
 
No mention of this by Amanda, Laura or Filomena...or more importantly, Amanda's defense team.


That's just a lie. When this issue was brought up back in August, Amanda's testimony was quoted and I repeat:

"....For example, the only time Meredith said something to me, well, it's because the toilets here are a bit different from the ones in America. You have to use a toilet brush here and it happened to me often to just forget to do that. Once she told me, it was a little "awkward" [in English], well it was a bit embarrassing but in the end it was fine, it was "cool"...."


In addition, I believe that Rudy's DNA came from the toilet paper, not the "deposit", which I believe both AK and RS said was in the toilet water, as the police found it.


There is extended coverage in the Crime Scene Video of November 3. Do I need to post a picture?
 
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