Continuation Part 2 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Kaosium]

I agree; however this seeming advantage of the Italian system is undermined considerably by the fact that trial transcripts are apparently not allowed to be published -- and I suspect that the requirement to publish motivation documents may even have its origin in this fact (in which case it's a poor substitute, for reasons that should be obvious).

Indeed, that is unfortunate. I have heard that if you go to the court in Italy you can copy the trial transcripts, however I am not sure of the source and if that was possible you'd think someone would have scanned them in online by now.

I do like the concept of the three tier system, with a potential new trial the second time, but I find it odd that a change of venue couldn't be granted especially in a case like this.

What got my dander up today was hearing again that somehow Rudy's trial can damn Raffaele and Amanda, when they didn't have any imput into that defense. As I recall it was actually Rudy that requested a separate trial, so he ends up with the smallest sentence and his trial somehow can negatively affect the two on trial for their 'lives?' That's just....absurd.

 

[Kaosium]

If so, why did he yield to their request that the knife not be dismantled, after initially telling the consultants it would be ok to do so?

Perhaps I read it wrong, but I got the impression it could still be done if the consultants thought it necessary. I was thinking it possible they might not think it necessary at all, being as that knife relies on some of the most dubious DNA 'evidence' possible. It couldn't be replicated, LCN, 'Too low' etc.

Plus the fact it didn't match the outline, and one if not two of the major wounds. It is evidence because they supposedly found Meredith's DNA on the blade and Amanda's on the handle from cooking, and with the absolute lack of traces of Amanda's DNA at the site and the forensics team going over it twice specifically looking for traces of her I would say that eliminates the possibility those picograms adhered to the knife at the murder site beyond a reasonable doubt.

Besides, who puts a knife they murdered with in the top of the drawer to eat with?

Logic, science and common sense all say that knife never left the drawer that night in my opinion.

 

[Onofarar]

Agreed. The post dealt with all levels and mentioned differences explicitly several times.

Most state judges are elected. In PA they even stand for re-election in a process called retention. You have no opponent but less than 50% of the vote = you are not retained. In actuality, judges who don't get retained with large majorities often resign or retire. In addition most state and ALL federal judges are subject to impeachment by the appropriate legislative body.

Almost all murders are tried in state courts - generally only acts against the government that involve murder - the Oklahoma City Bombing - Tim McVeigh and the recent assisination attempt on Gabby Giffords - Jared Loughner are examples of federal (expected in Loughner's case) murder trials. Kidnappings that cross state lines whether there is a murder or not oftewn are tried in federal court (due to the hue and cry over the Lindbergh baby case in the 1930s)

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Mr. Maresca

To all,

Some time ago I said that not only do I not believe that the kitchen knife was a murder weapon, but ILE also does not believe it. Otherwise they would have opened it up themselves. Wasn't Mr. Maresca the one whom Bob Graham in late 2009 quoted as saying that Italy was teaching the world. and the US, how to do forensics? I respectfully suggest that the court use "common sense" (as Ms. Comodi suggested in another context), and open the knife.

I told a good friend that it was time for the carnival to end. He said that ILE had spent too much on tents.

 

[Bruce Fischer]

Thanks for pointing that out. Both straps appear to be cut, so its more likely the bra clasp was cut also. I find it hard to believe the bra clasp and both straps could have been broken by pulling on the bra.

Ron Hendry did an excellent job of analyzing the bra and clasp. When you look closely you will see that the clasp was not cut from the bra. The thread failed at the seam joining the clasp and the bra. This would have been the result of brute force.

 

[Dan O.]

Well from the posted quote, the following descriptions appear;

"He put it in a new paper envelope he had with him and then in a folder. The bag with the knife inside was handed over to Superintendent Gubbiotti when he returned to the Police Headquarters.

.....and that it was inside a new and well-*‐‑sealed envelope.

.....he took the knife from the bag and put it inside a box that he sealed with scotch tape....."

He put the knife in an envelope which was then put in a 'folder', which in the next referral is called a 'bag'. This 'bag', which contained the knife in the envelope, was then brought to police headquarters where the knife in the envelope was removed from the bag, but not the envelope, and placed in a box to be sent to Rome.

That's the way I read it. It doesn't seem to have been taken out of the well sealed envelope, just the bag the envelope was placed in.

And for that he needed gloves?

It's situations like this where those mysterious bold bracketed numbers come in handy. They lead back to the original italian page. I've interleaved the italian with Google's unbiased translation.

Tale coltello fu il primo oggetto che toccò e si trovava sopra tutte le stoviglie.
That knife was the first object that touched and was above all the dishes.

Lo mise in una busta di carta, nuova e che aveva con sé e quindi in una cartellina.
Put it in a paper bag, new, and he was carrying and then in a folder.

Tale busta con all'interno il coltello la consegnò al sovrintendente Gubbiotti qundo rientrò in Questura.
The envelope with the knife handed in to the superintendent Gubbiotti qundo returned to police headquarters.

A sua volta il sovrintendente Gubbiotti, che aveva partecipato alla perquisizione nella casa di via della Pergola quello stesso 6 novembre, ha riferito che, rientrato in Questura, ricevette il coltello da Finzi: l'oggetto era all'interno di una busta nuova ben chiusa.
In turn, the superintendent Gubbiotti, who had participated in the raid at the house on Via della Pergola that same November 6, reported that after returning to the police station, received the knife Finzi: the object was inside a well sealed envelope new .

Gubbiotti ha inoltre dichiarato che quando repertò tale coltello aveva guanti nuovi, mai usati prima e che aveva preso in ufficio.
Gubbiotti also stated that when the knife was finding new gloves, never used before and had taken office.

Fu con tali guanti nuovi che prese il coltello dalla busta e lo mise in una scatola che sigillò con dello scotch e lo trasmise con altri reperti alla Polizia Scientifica di Roma dove fu sottoposto ad analisi secondo quanto riferito dalla dr.ssa Stefanoni.
It was with these new gloves that he took the knife from the bag and put it in a box sealed with scotch and transmitted it to other findings in the Scientific Police in Rome where he was subjected to analysis according to reports by Dr. Stefanoni.
​

I declare this mole busta'd

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

Perhaps I read it wrong, but I got the impression it could still be done if the consultants thought it necessary. I was thinking it possible they might not think it necessary at all, being as that knife relies on some of the most dubious DNA 'evidence' possible. It couldn't be replicated, LCN, 'Too low' etc.

Plus the fact it didn't match the outline, and one if not two of the major wounds. It is evidence because they supposedly found Meredith's DNA on the blade and Amanda's on the handle from cooking, and with the absolute lack of traces of Amanda's DNA at the site and the forensics team going over it twice specifically looking for traces of her I would say that eliminates the possibility those picograms adhered to the knife at the murder site beyond a reasonable doubt.

Besides, who puts a knife they murdered with in the top of the drawer to eat with?

Logic, science and common sense all say that knife never left the drawer that night in my opinion.

Of course it didn't. So why is Hellmann giving them 90 days to ponder the obvious, and fudging on the question of whether they can take the damn thing apart?

Any doubts I had about Hellmann were resolved with yesterday's hearing.

 

[RWVBWL]

Tests...

I thought only one shoulder strap was cut. Were both straps cut? Also, were Meredith's arms still inside the pushed up t-shirt or were they out of the armholes? If her arms were still inside, the bra cannot be removed unless he cuts both straps, unless, from behind, he yanks very hard at the strap but the clasp doesn't give way so he cuts it at this area. Then he has to cut one shoulder strap and pull the bra off her body by pulling it through the other armhole.

Thanks for pointing that out. Both straps appear to be cut, so its more likely the bra clasp was cut also. I find it hard to believe the bra clasp and both straps could have been broken by pulling on the bra.

Hi Danceme and Chris C,
I've read a bit of discussion whether the bra clasp was cut or ripped.
Why doesn't anyone of our interested JREF forum members do a couple of tests and post a photograph of each result?

Have a luved 1 or friend grab a huuuge knife and cut the bra clasp off.
And then have the same person rip the bra clasp off another bra.
Bra's aren't that expensive, are they?

 

[Kaosium]

Of course it didn't. So why is Hellmann giving them 90 days to ponder the obvious, and fudging on the question of whether they can take the damn thing apart?

Any doubts I had about Hellmann were resolved with yesterday's hearing.

You could be right, but I knew it was coming as I saw a clip of someone, I think it was Chris Mellas, say a couple or so days before how long it would take, and as I recall I calculated it might be as late as July so I was actually rather pleased it wouldn't be so long. However like you I couldn't help but wonder why it would take so long to take out the trash.

However, at the same time it might just be breakneck speed for a bureaucracy. They might just be meeting once a week to do it, after all I'm sure the Italian experts have other concerns as well, so it might just be something like twelve sessions, and I'm sure for some of them there's paperwork and other mundane things not related to the actual testing. They'll want to allow plenty of extra time just in case there's complications, I'd think that would be something they'd plan for, and if they have extra time left over at the end perhaps they'll be done early or I suppose they figure they can go golfing each week during that time--after all it's not them in jail.

His initial inclination was to allow the opening of the knife until the prosecution and Maresca jumped up to protest, and I suppose he might figure that if it can be determined without breaking it open then there's no concern of potentially destroying the evidence, which was the prosecutions' objection if I recall. What would be of more concern to me would be if later the experts wanted to do it but Hellmann wouldn't allow it then. Right now it first has to pass the science, logic and common sense tests, which it might not be able to manage.

At any rate it did display that it was the prosecution most concerned about the possibility and who jumped up to object, revealing as Halides noted above they know damn well in their hearts that knife never left the drawer. Perhaps there were reporters there who put that together as well....

 

[Dan O.]

Bra's aren't that expensive, are they?

We've already identified a discounted source of used bra's. [I'll not repeat it here lest our competition would seek to corner the market]

On certain days they even discount the old stock at 50% off or better.

 

[RWVBWL]

1 of my current theories...

Okay .. I think I found it here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8tH-klo4nGQ

If that is really Meredith and Guede that is frightening and damning.

He doesn't look like he's going to hook up with Amanda in that video. It's far from clear that it is him though.

Hi Moodstream and others,
I watched that video again that you linked Moodstream,
and I gotta say that I think the guy in it is white, not black. If so, it is not Rudy Guede.
Heck, Barbie Nadeau in 'Angel Face' believes it so too, for on page 37 she writes that "The man is clearly white, not black, but defense attorneys for Raffaele and Amanda would later insist that it was Rudy Guede."

So let's look at this in a different color.
Say that is a white dude, heading towards Meredith Kercher.
It then kind of reminds me of something LMT of Alternate Theories recently posted:
Another female student described a knife attack by an arab looking drug dealer in 2006:
"i went down via alessi, towards home. there were these arab guys outside the sandwich shop, like always. they are always there, staring at everyone who passes. i didn't look at them, because it is not good to make eye contact with anyone. i kept walking. i put my keys in my front pocket to be ready, because they had spooked me. i got to the church just steps away from my door. i could see a man following me from an intersecting street, out the corner of my eye. i kept tabs on him. suddenly he was too close. i thought maybe he wanted a cigarette. i turned around and saw he was really too close just for a question, and all his attention was on me. i started to say go away, but he grabbed me and showed me his knife clenched in his fist. i screamed in his face, as loud as i could and tried to push him away. i felt him stab me. he threw me on the ground and got my purse and ran."

Link here:
http://alternatetheories-perugiamur.../01/post-161-who-killed-meredith-she-was.html

So as we know there was at least 1 crazy guy in Perugia who had stabbed a young woman in a robbery attempt.
Was he ever caught, convicted and jailed? I wonder.

Say this is the same guy who is then seen in that CCTV video, or 1 of his friends. Maybe he had been trying to break into cars in a parking garage, as I once did a long time ago, (and got busted for doing so). He sees Meredith walking alone. Easy prey. He follows her and intercepts her right as she too gets to her apartment. Wasn't Meredith on her phone last at 8:56 pm, calling her Mother, which she abruptly ended and never retried? I kind of doubt that Meredith had called her Mom from inside her apartment, the timing after parting with Sophie Puton is just too soon, in my opinion. So I therefore think that the call was interupted while she neared her apartment front door, and the guy possibly gained entrance into her apartment with Meredith. If so, I wonder did Meredith lock her front door? I doubt it.

Rudy had previously hung out with the boyz downstairs, might he have wondered over to see what the boyz were doing that night and see if anyone wanted to smoke out with him and get high. No one was home, but he sees the front door open upstairs. He heads upstairs and rings the door buzzer, no one answers, maybe he called Amanda or Meredith's name aloud. The guy holding the knife on Meredith was 1st trying to rob her, but now is trying to sexually assault her, and from inside Meredith's bedroom, he hears Guede calling out. Meredith tries to break free and get away and he then stabs her, 3 times quickly, brutally in the throat. Rudy hears a commotion and walks inside, and saw this guy as he finished stabbing Meredith, who he then fights with a bit as he backs up into the kitchen area. As the guy is leaving he said to Rudy, black man found, black man guilty. If Rudy was high at the time, I can see him in a panic as he goes into Meredith's room and he does try to save Meredith, grabbing towels to help try and staunch her bleeding. But he leaves quickly, worried that he will be blamed for Meredith Kercher's brutal, bloody murder.

I sometimes wonder if Rudy Guede came back hours later after he had went to the Domus nightclub. When he saw that there was no police activity, he threw a rock, (which no person, nor Nara or Antonio heard at this late hour) at the window to see if anyone was there. Nope. The front door was open and he went inside to check on Meredith Kercher. Possibly intoxicated, he finished undressing her and sexually assaulted her body, masturbating over it, as he allegedly told a prison cell-mate*. Afterwards, he stayed there a bit, had a bowel movement, drank some orange juice outta the carton, kicked back a bit as he decided what to do, since he now knew that no one would proabaly be coming home at 3 or 4 am...

Anyways, this is just a current theory that I have been working on in my mind a bit as I hang out at the beach watching and riding the pumping surf we have and feeling the gorgeous, hot sun beat down, making January in Southern California feel like summer.

Feel free to tear it apart...
RWVBWL

*Link:
http://www.sundaytimes.lk/world-news/4188--knox-lawyers-confident-ahead-of-appeal-in-italy

 

[Diastole]

The more I learn about this case, the more I'm convinced that the defence teams did a woefully substandard job in the first trial.

LondonJohn, you've raised this point in a few prior posts. I'm in no position to refute your appraisal from any kind of informed perspective, but couldn't an argument be made that the defense teams, veterans of the Italian system, could see the first trial for what it was - legal theatre, whose first act was intended to show approbation of the police and magistracy, with a foregone outcome? Do you think there is any evidence which the defense could have presented that would have changed Massei's verdict? Perhaps the defense was wise to reserve their most telling arguments for the appeal, where a new judge, more inclined to acquit, could use this "new" evidence as a convenient reason for reversal.

Hopefully, Act 2 of this fiasco will have a happier ending.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

At any rate it did display that it was the prosecution most concerned about the possibility and who jumped up to object, revealing as Halides noted above they know damn well in their hearts that knife never left the drawer. Perhaps there were reporters there who put that together as well....

Indeed there were. Maresca did not merely oppose the idea of dismantling the knife. He opposed new testing of the bra as well.

Obviously, this is the position defense attorneys almost always take. They don't want further tests that might add to the weight of evidence against their client. But in this case, the defense is agreeable to any and all further testing the consultants may wish to perform. It is the attorney who represents the family of a murder victim - a party that has every interest in learning the truth about what happened to their loved one - pleading with the court not to test forensic evidence.

Yes, the media took note of this.

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

Feel free to tear it apart...
RWVBWL

Offhand this theory does not explain the broken window and possible signs of entry via that avenue, nor Rudy's DNA on Meredith's bra or inside her person.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

At any rate it did display that it was the prosecution most concerned about the possibility and who jumped up to object, revealing as Halides noted above they know damn well in their hearts that knife never left the drawer. Perhaps there were reporters there who put that together as well....

Indeed there were. Maresca did not merely oppose the idea of dismantling the knife. He opposed new testing of the bra as well.

Obviously, this is the position defense attorneys almost always take. They don't want further tests that might add to the weight of evidence against their client. But in this case, the defense is agreeable to any and all further testing the consultants may wish to perform. It is the attorney who represents the family of a murder victim - a party that has every interest in learning the truth about what happened to their loved one - pleading with the court not to test forensic evidence.

Yes, the media took note of this.

 

[RWVBWL]

Offhand this theory does not explain the broken window and possible signs of entry via that avenue, nor Rudy's DNA on Meredith's bra or inside her person.

Hi Kevin Lowe,
I hope that you guys+gals downunder are dryin' out!

As far as Rudy's DNA goes, if he did masturbate there at some point, I can see a guy, 1 not high, but possibly intoxicated from bein' at a club, doing gross things that left his DNA in certain private places, so to say. If he did come back, if this happened late at night/early in the morning, whichever time frame you care to call it, he would have seen that the police are not there, he probably figures everyone else in the world is asleep, so he throws a rock at the window, waits awhile, sees that the breaking glass does not awaken any of Meredith's housemates, nor the boyz downstairs, or any nearby neighbors. With the front door wide open, well I can see a guy who had earlier tried to save a gal he knew wondering if she were dead, and entering that apartment. I bet that he probably checked in every room to make sure no one was there though.

The rest of my current theory is disgusting.
And for that reason, I am glad that Rudy Guede is in jail...

Time for some shut eye to catch the early morning dawn patrol.
L8, RWVBWL

 

[komponisto]

The more I learn about this case, the more I'm convinced that the defence teams did a woefully substandard job in the first trial. I realise that there were issues outside their control (such as many of Mignini's manoeuvres and Massei's "reasoning"), but even so, their failure to deal properly with Curatolo, Quintavalle and Capezalli, coupled with their seeming inability to properly assimilate and refute much of the key scientific and medical evidence (the DNA validity, time of death, cellphone evidence) is worrying and absolutely not to their credit.

Previously, I wondered about the defense's competence (especially Knox's lawyers -- apparently Dalla Vedova had never tried a criminal case before!), but now, having read both appeal briefs as well as Massei/Cristiani, I have to take exception to the view you express here. The fact is that the defense put on an extremely strong case; the "woefully substandard job" was the one done by the Massei court in evaluating it.

The testimony of the defense's expert witnesses should have been more than enough to secure acquittal. Francesco Pasquali's experiments should have been the end of the staged-burglary nonsense, and Carlo Torre's analysis the end of the multiple-attacker theory. Even from reading Massei/Cristiani you can tell that Sarah Gino and Adriano Tagliabracci had no trouble pointing out the problems with the knife and bra clasp, as if Comodi's favored "common sense" weren't enough.

Giulia Bongiorno is an excellent lawyer, and Sollecito's appeal brief (which one really gets the sense was written largely by her) shows it. One thing that was really eye-opening was how much stronger the arguments sound coming from the lawyers themselves than coming from journalists reporting on what they said in court -- a discovery which, I have to say, really angered me, because it revealed in retrospect just how poor the reporting on the trial was. The same arguments you heard about are there (including, for example, Bongiorno's famous "Amélie" argument regarding Amanda), but they're much more powerful than what you read in the newspapers.

So when you evaluate how good of a job the defense did in presenting its case during the first trial, you have to take into account that you were hearing about it through the filter of not-particularly-interested-or-competent journalists, on whom important nuances, subtleties, and frankly most details of the arguments are simply lost.

 

[Mrs.Columbo]

LondonJohn, you've raised this point in a few prior posts. I'm in no position to refute your appraisal from any kind of informed perspective, but couldn't an argument be made that the defense teams, veterans of the Italian system, could see the first trial for what it was - legal theatre, whose first act was intended to show approbation of the police and magistracy, with a foregone outcome? Do you think there is any evidence which the defense could have presented that would have changed Massei's verdict? Perhaps the defense was wise to reserve their most telling arguments for the appeal, where a new judge, more inclined to acquit, could use this "new" evidence as a convenient reason for reversal.

Hopefully, Act 2 of this fiasco will have a happier ending.

I must agree with LondonJohn.
But for the 'legal theatre' as you call it: The better Act 1 - the easier Act 2.
IMHO the defense of both has left far too much unchallenged at the first time, so that there is too much left for the appeal-case.

 

[Withnail1969]

I recommend checking out Perugia Shock for new photos of The Knife. It turns out The Knife is actually quite dirty, therefore it has not been cleaned, therefore it is not the murder weapon.

 

[billyryan]

Indeed there were. Maresca did not merely oppose the idea of dismantling the knife. He opposed new testing of the bra as well.

Obviously, this is the position defense attorneys almost always take. They don't want further tests that might add to the weight of evidence against their client. But in this case, the defense is agreeable to any and all further testing the consultants may wish to perform. It is the attorney who represents the family of a murder victim - a party that has every interest in learning the truth about what happened to their loved one - pleading with the court not to test forensic evidence.

Yes, the media took note of this.

More important did Stefano Conti and Carla Vecchiotti notice Comodi and Maresca's objection

Great photo of the two of them in Franks blog,I wonder did Frank take that photo himself right after Comodi and Maresca's outburst.

I wonder could Stefano be saying to Carla "see I told you they know well it is not the murder weapon"