Continuation Part 2 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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If a perpetrator needed to bring light to just inside Meredith's door, why would he unplug Amanda's lamp and bring it into Meredith's room where they then need to find an outlet and unplug Meredith's computer to plug it in. They would instead just grab the lamp, turn it on and walk into Meredith's room with it*.

The only reasonable explanation for the state we find it in is that the person borrowing the lamp either didn't want to leave the extension cord draped across the hallway (ie: Meredith using it 1 or 2 nights earlier) or they needed to minimally disturb the evidence* (ie: early police on the scene needing more light).


(* See for evidence the extension cord which was plugged into Amanda's outlet by her door with the other end behind the box next to her desk)
 
billyryan said:
Tomorrow judge Hellmann will set the terms of reference for the DNA review,he will be expected to limit the review by his colleagues to prevent the possibility of the DNA experts been able to tell the world what a corrupt bunch of idiots the Perugian judiciary are,these judges are after all used to lawyers telling them what gods gift to humanity they are,they have been told this by defence lawyers and prosecutors so often that some of them might even believe it.The last thing they want the world to find out is how easy a fat bald little criminal and a few liars made fools out of them.Who knows what Hellmann is thinking,one thing he must know,is that more films are going to be made about this case and he has the chance to be portrayed as a hero in maybe the ultimate film on this case,to do that he needs to bring this case to a decisive result one way or another

As regards Curatolo there are definitely top police officers in Perugia who don't want the world to know how a homeless heroine addict gave false testimony at not just one but probably three murder trials,the dealing charges that have just been initiated against him,are I suspect just one part of a very sinister plot to somehow remove him out of the picture.I expect the men who framed Amanda and Raffaele to one way or another find a way to prevent Curatolo been interviewed by big American news corporations or taking the stand
"people who live rough usually die young"
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I doubt if Hellmann cares how he is portrayed in movies and books. He cares how his colleagues perceive him. They expect him to protect the reputation of the court system, and that is the only thing he really cares about. But what decision on his part will best serve the interests of the system? Can he find a way to uphold the verdict by carefully manipulating the process and putting the right spin on the information that comes out of the review? Or, has the verdict been so thoroughly discredited that the best way to protect the system is to free Amanda and Raffaele? Everything I know about US cases tells me he will listen to those who tell him what he wants to hear, and on that basis, he will endorse the verdict. I hope I'm wrong.
 
Charlie Wilkes said:
I doubt if Hellmann cares how he is portrayed in movies and books. He cares how his colleagues perceive him. They expect him to protect the reputation of the court system, and that is the only thing he really cares about. But what decision on his part will best serve the interests of the system? Can he find a way to uphold the verdict by carefully manipulating the process and putting the right spin on the information that comes out of the review? Or, has the verdict been so thoroughly discredited that the best way to protect the system is to free Amanda and Raffaele? Everything I know about US cases tells me he will listen to those who tell him what he wants to hear, and on that basis, he will endorse the verdict. I hope I'm wrong.
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Wow Charlie, I sure hope you're wrong too. But I understand why you feel the way you do.
I just can't help but thinking that if the DNA evidence is proved wrong, Hellman will have no choice but to overturn the verdict. That coupled with the total destruction of Toto's faulty testimony, leaves nothing to base their guilt on IMO.
 
Charlie Wilkes said:
Ron Hendry is quite sure it was torn rather than cut, and he convinced me. He showed me a bra with similar construction. The fabric to which the clasp is attached is a separate, stitched-on piece that also attaches to the shoulder strap.
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Ron did an excellent job of analyzing the bra and clasp. I am now thoroughly convinced the bra was not cut. The thread at the seams of the bra failed due to excessive force. Ron's analysis highlighted, once again, how poorly the crime scene was investigated.
 
Bruce Fisher said:
Ron did an excellent job of analyzing the bra and clasp. I am now thoroughly convinced the bra was not cut. The thread at the seams of the bra failed due to excessive force. Ron's analysis highlighted, once again, how poorly the crime scene was investigated.
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The problem with no knife cutting the bra leads down the path that there was a sexual assault and it happened before the stabbing. The reason being like you said, it was pulled free. If Meredith is dead or dying you dont have to jerk on the bra with great force to get it off, the victim is no longer putting up a fight. You just unsnap it. Plus just because there is blood on the bra doesn't mean the attacker took the bra all the way off before the stabbing.
 
Poppy1016 said:
Wow Charlie, I sure hope you're wrong too. But I understand why you feel the way you do.
I just can't help but thinking that if the DNA evidence is proved wrong, Hellman will have no choice but to overturn the verdict. That coupled with the total destruction of Toto's faulty testimony, leaves nothing to base their guilt on IMO.
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Maybe, they can save face by blaming the bench bum for lying, blaming the Lab for contamination, and give the court system accolades for getting to the truth.
 
Poppy1016 said:
I just can't help but thinking that if the DNA evidence is proved wrong, Hellman will have no choice but to overturn the verdict.
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I would like to believe that, but I am deeply skeptical. I have just started reading a book called False Justice by Jim and Nancy Petro. Jim Petro served as Ohio's Attorney General for several years, and Nancy is his wife of many years. Petro is a law-and-order Republican, a guy who has devoted most of his career to making sure crime does not go unpunished. More recently, he has become deeply involved in the Innocence Project because of a particular case that shook his faith in the system.

Clarence Elkins was convicted of killing his mother-in-law and raping his six-year-old niece based on the testimony of the niece. DNA evidence, however, clearly exonerated Elkins. The DNA evidence was available at the original trial, but the prosecution waved it away, and the jury did too. But when the niece got a little older and repudiated her testimony - which was the only evidence against Elkins - one would think that would be ample grounds to overturn the verdict or at least order a new trial. But the courts didn't see it that way. Finally, advocates for Elkins went straight to Petro, an honest man who realized it was a railroad job and assumed it could be cleared up with a couple of phone calls. Instead, the local prosecutor's office dug in their heels and waged public combat with the AG's office because in their world, that was better than admitting they were wrong.

I have scanned a few pages from the book, describing key moments in this debacle, and posted them on the FOA site. Here are the links:

http://www.friendsofamanda.org/petro_p15.gif
http://www.friendsofamanda.org/petro_p16.gif
http://www.friendsofamanda.org/petro_p21.gif
http://www.friendsofamanda.org/petro_p46.gif
http://www.friendsofamanda.org/petro_p47.gif

The archives of crime are littered with these cases. The similarities are relentless and discouraging.
 
look no further

RoseMontague said:
This picture I had not seen before. It gives a different view of Amanda and Raffaele outside the cottage. The one of them kissing seems to be the one I see most often.


[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/383964d39b624b7ea1.jpg[/qimg]
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RoseMontague,

Good find. I agree with the gist of something you said elsewhere, that the photographs that a reporter or editor chose to show or not to show are an editorial decision, just as what is or is not written. The photographs on the cover of Darkness Descending sure send a message.
 
Chris C said:
The problem with no knife cutting the bra leads down the path that there was a sexual assault and it happened before the stabbing. The reason being like you said, it was pulled free. If Meredith is dead or dying you dont have to jerk on the bra with great force to get it off, the victim is no longer putting up a fight. You just unsnap it. Plus just because there is blood on the bra doesn't mean the attacker took the bra all the way off before the stabbing.
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The bloodstains show that she was still wearing the bra when the mortal wound was inflicted, but the bloodstains also show that it was removed or at least pushed above her breasts while blood was still spraying from the wound in her throat. Removing the bra, even after she had ceased to struggle, would not have been as simple as unhooking it, because he never completely removed the two shirts she was wearing. To get the bra completely off without removing the shirts, he had to sever the shoulder straps, as indeed he did, and the photos show that these were torn rather than cut with a knife.
 
Charlie Wilkes said:
The bloodstains show that she was still wearing the bra when the mortal wound was inflicted, but the bloodstains also show that it was removed or at least pushed above her breasts while blood was still spraying from the wound in her throat. Removing the bra, even after she had ceased to struggle, would not have been as simple as unhooking it, because he never completely removed the two shirts she was wearing. To get the bra completely off without removing the shirts, he had to sever the shoulder straps, as indeed he did, and the photos show that these were torn rather than cut with a knife.
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Does the tear/cut show signs of being cut before or after the mortal wound?
Just because the bra was broken at the back, does not mean it was removed right away.
Its also just as plausible that the bra could have been pushed up after the fatal injury as a result of the body being dragged slightly by the feet or from the body being searched for something. What exactly on the bra shows that it was cut after the fatal wounds?

Killer attacks Meredith. Knocks her to ground and assaults her from behind. Pushes jacket up and grabs bra and breaks it lose. Continues with sexual assault and/or gets tired of Meredith resisting and kills her.

Also nearly everyone assumes the sexual assault happened after the stabbing when there really is no evidence of it. The upper body undressing and broken bra could have happened during an attempted flee after the rape. The assailant could just have easily grabbed the back of Meredith jacket and grabbed hold of the bra also. Thus breaking the bra while holding onto the victim by the jacket. Though that scenario doesn't explain Rudy's dna very well. Of course explaining any of the dna at that crime scene seems to be a problem. Allot of pro knox seem to believe that some of the evidence was contaminated either on purpose or accident. The same could be said about Rudy's dna.

I think it would be better to try and explain how the blood and dna got on bra and clasp after the sexual assault. Because if I was a juror I wouldn't believe a scenario where a lone assailant undressed a woman that was bleeding to death to have sex with her without some hard evidence. So long as the defense continues with the she was raped after being stabbed 2 times and had her throat cut scenario, the jury is going to believe the scene was staged.
 
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Elsewhere, Rudy denies that it could be him in the video because his father bought him the jacked that looks like the one in the video while he was in prison in Germany.
 
Dan O. said:
Elsewhere, Rudy denies that it could be him in the video because his father bought him the jacked that looks like the one in the video while he was in prison in Germany.
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Is that likely? Does his father back him up? Is the video on line?

Thanks.
 
Chris C said:
Does the tear/cut show signs of being cut before or after the mortal wound?
Just because the bra was broken at the back, does not mean it was removed right away.
Its also just as plausible that the bra could have been pushed up after the fatal injury as a result of the body being dragged slightly by the feet or from the body being searched for something. What exactly on the bra shows that it was cut after the fatal wounds?
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The cups of the bra were stained with a spray of tiny blood droplets. Her breasts were covered with a similar spray. This points to a scenario in which she was wearing the bra when her throat was cut, but it was removed when she was still gasping for breath.
 
moodstream said:
Is that likely? Does his father back him up? Is the video on line?

Thanks.
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The link goes back to ilmessaggero.it 2009-09-19 but I haven't been able to pull the original article.

Of course, even if true, his father would have tried to buy him a jacket that he knew Rudy would like such as the same stile Rudy always wore.


The video doesn't provide anything except possibly a definite time stamp because Rudy admits that he was at the cottage and even that he showed up some time before Meredith arrived. I don't know why he would deny the video if it was him (although he does have a lawyer at this time).

The person in that video could clear the issue by coming forward. However, if it were me I would stay quiet and not risk getting involved.
 
Dan O. said:
The link goes back to ilmessaggero.it 2009-09-19 but I haven't been able to pull the original article.

Of course, even if true, his father would have tried to buy him a jacket that he knew Rudy would like such as the same stile Rudy always wore.


The video doesn't provide anything except possibly a definite time stamp because Rudy admits that he was at the cottage and even that he showed up some time before Meredith arrived. I don't know why he would deny the video if it was him (although he does have a lawyer at this time).

The person in that video could clear the issue by coming forward. However, if it were me I would stay quiet and not risk getting involved.
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He doesn't look like he's going to hook up with Amanda in that video. It's far from clear that it is him though.
 
Charlie Wilkes said:
The cups of the bra were stained with a spray of tiny blood droplets. Her breasts were covered with a similar spray. This points to a scenario in which she was wearing the bra when her throat was cut, but it was removed when she was still gasping for breath.
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The walls were covered with tiny blood droplets also. What makes the sexual assault happen after the bra was cut/torn and after her throat was slashed? If her breasts were covered with similar spray, would not that point to the bra's removal before throat slashing. How did it even get spray on it, if the coat was suppose to still be on when her throat was cut. Plus for the sexual assault to happen after Meredith's throat was cut, first she would have had to been on her stomach to cut/break the bra, then she would have been rolled over to take off the bra. Her head would have had to been higher than the bra for blood to rush down onto it. It would have had to been higher more than a few seconds after throat was cut. Plus there is spray on the bra that would suggest the bra was off rather than on. I thought spray shot away from body not towards it. A better scenario was the bra/coat was on the floor beneath her when her throat was cut and later moved for whatever reason.
 
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