Continuation Part 2 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Alt+F4]

Unlike Alt+F4 I don't have an idealistic view of the justice system (here or in Italy).

I don't have an idealist view of the justice system in the U.S. (where I live) or anywhere else. What I do know is, don't hire an expensive PR firm (even if they are pro bono) to help trash the judicial system that I want to rule in my favor.

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

I was notified that importing is illegal so I'm blanking the quote. I'll keep the content.

This was originally a response to a comment on PMF by SomeAlibi about my use of the term rabbit punch along with a paragraph of name calling. I wanted to pick a common forum.

Sorry to pile on you, but I agree with the others that Amanda's description of what occurred would be better described as "cuffing", or better yet simply "hitting" (since it has more neutral connotations). Calling them "rabbit punches" is emotive and misleading.

The fact that she and her family have been charged for speaking out about it is the real outrage in my view.

 

[RoseMontague]

I don't have an idealist view of the justice system in the U.S. (where I live) or anywhere else. What I do know is, don't hire an expensive PR firm (even if they are pro bono) to help trash the judicial system that I want to rule in my favor.

It is a fair point and one that is debated by those that support innocence. My opinion is they made the correct decision. The appeal court has responded with a positive first decision to re-look at some of the evidence. We'll have to see how this plays out and what hints the court gives us as to their reasoning. In the written order for the new testing they indicated they did not fully share the first court's opinion on reasonable doubt in this case. That was a significant statement in my view.

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

I don't have an idealist view of the justice system in the U.S. (where I live) or anywhere else. What I do know is, don't hire an expensive PR firm (even if they are pro bono) to help trash the judicial system that I want to rule in my favor.

Is that really how you would feel if you'd been railroaded?

Imagine just for a minute (you can go back afterwards, relax) that you're a member of Amanda's family and you know she's innocent and that you know that the prosecutor is a convicted nutter who should not still be running around loose, that the police were incompetent, that the judge was not impartial and that the Perugia system had closed ranks to defend this disaster?

(Even the most determined authoritarian surely has to admit at this stage of the game that the various leaks and lies, the destruction of evidence, the insufficiently rigorous crime scene and evidence handling, the pretended failure to record only the most vital interviews and the whitewashing of all of the above in the Massei report is cause for deep concern even if you think that Knox and Sollecito are guilty. Don't let's get started on the trophy photo on the wall or the medals handed out to the officers responsible for the mess).

At that point I'd be thinking "If we play the game again their way we'll get the same outcome. We need the eyes of the world on these people if we want a fair trial. They need to fear the consequences if they go too far to cover this up".

If I were them I'd definitely get every bit of publicity about the case I could. The more sunshine focused on the Perugia system right now the better.

That said, the oft-stated and more-oft-implied claim is not merely that Knox has a PR firm to get attention, but that Knox has a PR firm to spread lies about the case and that every article published about the case from a pro-innocence perspective is disinfo planted by the nigh-omnipotent FOA conspiracy. Every time some pro-innocence columnist or speaker gets a fact wrong, it's leapt upon as evidence that they are a mendacious PR plant. Yet in this ridiculously complicated case every time a pro-guilt columnist gets a fact wrong, never mind hobbyist agitators like Harry Rag who lie like rugs, it's just a mistake. Their evidence for an evil PR conspiracy is not evidence, and if it was the guilter side would logically need to have an equally powerful PR machine hidden in the shadows somewhere.

Anyway, you can now go back to thinking they were guilty... somehow, in a chain of events you cannot imagine, for reasons that you cannot defend as logical. As you were.

 

[Danceme]

But the postal police officers testified that they simply looked in through the door, saw Meredith's foot sticking out from the edge of the duvet, lifted the edge of the duvet to see that she was dead, then left the room immediately.

Surely, SURELY, you're not suggesting that the postal police actually did far more than this, and spent some time inside Meredith's room, bringing the additional lamp in for extra lighting? Because that would not only mean that they were lying about what they did at the scene, it would also mean that they physically compromised the heart of the crime scene. Surely this couldn't have happened in a police force as professional as Perugia's could it?!

Why are you insinuating that they did? Why are you constantly making stuff up, offering strawmen as opposed to true reasoning on these matters? Do you really think the Postal police took Amanda's lamp from her room and scrutinized the deep recesses under her bed, or looked for cobwebs in the corner perhaps, instead of just securing the scene while awaiting the Carabinieri? There were only six other people around to see them after all.

What did you think about the rest of Hendry's report?

I'm in the process of reading them, there's nine reports. I'm looking at the one titled "Interpreting the blood and struggle evidence in Meredith's room" and I still think it's interesting he describes a cleanup of blood in the murder room, in the area where she was finally found as well as by the bed.
I think he has also made a mistake when he thinks the boots under the bed are the light brown ones shown on Nov 2 by the wardrobe sitting in Meredith's blood. I think they are the first pair shown on page 30 of the Rinaldi 1 report, a different pair of boots entirely. (The Rinaldi shows Meredith had 12 separate pairs of footwear in fact.)
I'll continue as I read more in the next few days.

 

[Danceme]

Don't let's get started on the trophy photo on the wall.....

Are you aware that Rudy's photo was hanging directly above hers as well?

 

[Chris_Halkides]

not convicted

Are you aware that Rudy's photo was hanging directly above hers as well?

Danceme,

Neither one was convicted at that point. Two wrongs, as RoseMontague pointed out with respect to Provenzano, don't make a right.

 

[Justinian2]

In Honor of Martin Luther King Jr. Day - one of his quotes:

"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere"

If the majority totally believed that, slavery would not have existed.
If the majority totally believed that, genocide would not have existed.
If the majority totally believed that, fewer innocent people would be incarcerated or executed.

Instead, the majority seem to believe that failure to punish the accused is a threat to justice everywhere.

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

Are you aware that Rudy's photo was hanging directly above hers as well?

Yup. That doesn't make it any better than Amanda's is there.

The way the pro-guilt side want this conversation to go is that I say "Amanda's photo is there and Rudy's isn't, this is proof the Perugia police force were and are unprofessional and ridiculously over-committed to the hypothesis that Amanda Knox did it". Then they say "Aha! Rudy's photo is there too! Gotcha! You know jack about this case!". I've seen them pull it on at least one other speaker. I didn't fall into that trap because I know about Rudy's photo, so the gotcha doesn't work nearly as well.

The reason it's a talking point, and a gotcha, as opposed to a real argument is that the pro-guilt side can't explain exactly how Rudy's photo being there makes it okay that Amanda's photo is there.

Amanda's photo on the wall and the distribution of medals to the officers who railroaded her looks to me very much like an attempt to present a false front of confidence and competence.

 

[Draca]

People involved in this case, including Mignini by his own admission follow news reports and blogs on the internet. In addition those that report the news follow such things to different degrees. I saw the internet stories and discussion including several blogs have a distinct impact on the Duke Lacrosse case. Our little discussion may not mean much but such things can make a difference even if it is not seen or noticed to a degree it was in the Duke Lacrosse case.

Posters from JREF have had a more direct impact than they realize. Several points that were developed thoroughly here went into IIP press releases that led to articles and interviews. From your forum today to their newspapers tomorrow.

 

[Draca]

Giuliano Mignini sues West Seattle Herald

Didn't he sue an English-speaking paper for saying he was mentally unbalanced (or something similar)? He was obviously aware of the Daily Mail article he introduced in Court, too.

Amanda Knox prosecutor Giuliano Mignini targets West Seattle Herald for slander

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSXYZ3Y_DvI

 

[CDHost]

You did pretty well. I got about half way through before you lost me, which isn't to bad, really. I also like Halides1 because he does a similar thing with the DNA evidence, making it fairly understandable. I get the general sense that your post destroys the police claim that there is no alibi evidence on the computer simply because they did not know where or how to look for it or just didn't try very hard to find it. That makes the request for additional expert opinion of the computers a very important request that may come to a decision at some point in the process. There could very well be some alibi evidence on the computer that the police "missed".

Thanks. If you feel like a constructive critique I'd love to know where you got lost. I'm thinking the paragraph on Quartz? I went back and forth on that one. The second half, what logs I didn't have as good an idea on. I gather the yellow diagram with the list didn't help. I tried with the purple box.

As for your general sense you are absolutely spot on. They are looking at inferior places primarily because they aren't skilled enough. I can't see any legitimate grounds for not allowing an expert to inspect his system for additional activity. And there could be terrific evidence in the log.

As an aside someone posted their windowserver.log so those of you not on a mac can take a look at what one looks like

 

[CDHost]

I guess by "international movement" you mean posting anynomously on various Internet forums.

If you want to help Knox's defense then give her family money - a lot of it. I'm sure they need it.

Short of that or you having new evidence nothing you pontificate behind the comfort of your keyboard has any effect whatsoever on this case. Be as opposed and as indignant as you want to, you can't stop the prosecution or change anything involving this case.

Mumia Abu Jamal is alive today because of a public support movement. And I did give to Knox defense fund.

 

[CDHost]

What English-speaking experts are doing something about this "miscarriage of justice" other than posting on the Internet about it?

Could you name some experts who are actively involved with the defense during this appeals process, helping them in areas they may need help with?

By far the number one most important is Senator Cantwell who could simply end this with a rider. Getting a sitting US Senator to question a verdict, not a sentence but a verdict is a massive victory. If the PR campaign accomplished nothing but this it would have been a huge success.

Theodore Simon, who is a very experienced trial attorney for political murders with international impact. He is now a legal advisor for the Knox/Solecito camp.

But in general the Italian defense team is not making use of the strategic depth of the US internet team. In the early days of SCO v. IBM, IBM didn't understand how much information their free defenders had collected either. I wish the Italian defense team made more use of their American supporters but this dual strategy might make sense since Italy seems political sensitive to this being a full on international trial rather than a simple murder trial.

 

[CDHost]

I don't have an idealist view of the justice system in the U.S. (where I live) or anywhere else. What I do know is, don't hire an expensive PR firm (even if they are pro bono) to help trash the judicial system that I want to rule in my favor.

Tell that to Nelson Mandela.

 

[CDHost]

He knew enough English to instigate legal proceedings against the West Seattle Herald.
I wonder how those proceedings are going, incidentally....

Who cares? The West Seattle Herald is a US corporation and thus has 1st Amendment rights. Mignini is a public official. Criticism of a public official's performance in office for activities related to their office is about as protected as speech can possibly get.

I don't think there is a judge in the United States that would honor any request to enforce or act on that ruling.

 

[CDHost]

I think it's quite scary if public pressure can overturn a jury decided case. Criminal cases should be decided by juries, not by mobs.

Why do you think the President of Italy has the power to pardon? Ultimately executive pardons exist because judicial systems can fail to take into account political realities. The purpose of a justice system is to serve the society that supports it. Italy the EU and the international standards of justice

 

[CDHost]

They have qualities in common - I'd add to the list a policy of shunning or expelling from the community anyone who diverges too far from the party line, an acceptance of lying in pursuit of the group's goals and a culture of fear of and alienation towards the outside world - more than one of them has stated that when they read mainstream news reports on the case they get the feeling the world has gone mad and they need to run back to PMF to soak up some "sane" talking points and reassure themselves that they are right.

Good point. Though I am curious about the lying. Can you point out examples of them being intentionally deceptive?

To be fair many of them have renounced the Massei doctrine and experimented with other theories that try to conform better with the real time of death and the computer forensic evidence. There are still some Massei fundamentalists who haven't got the message, but we've shot enough holes in the good ship Massei/Christiani that the more free-thinking pro-guilt readers are jumping overboard and constructing their own rafts from the bits.

I know. In my book should logically make AK & RS not guilty. If you reject the prosecution's case you reject the verdict.

I also think that while they've got some qualities of an on-line cult, in the end they will never have the grip on a person's whole life that a real authoritarian cult has. It's a hobby group with cult-like qualities, but it's not their life. (Well, maybe it is for one or two of them). I think we'll see in the months to come that it's a lot easier to get out of the guilter world than to get out of a meatspace cult.

I agree. My point was they attract people with Right Wing Authoritarianism. I don't actually see any social dominators which is something you would need to form an actual cult. If you want to see a rather successful online cult, though it does have some tentacles in meatspace Bayly blog. I should mention they considered Church Discipline the #1 most evil site on the entire internet, which given their 10 years of running their blog and thus extensive exposure to all sorts of groups they hate, I considered a very high complement.

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

Good point. Though I am curious about the lying. Can you point out examples of them being intentionally deceptive?

IIP has what looks like a pretty good set of examples of Harry Rag posting false statements.
about the case all over the internet, which he cannot credibly claim to not know were false. Well, I suppose he could plead mental illness, but that would be about it. However once you know enough about the case you see plenty of examples of people who have been involved with the case for years still making claims that they have been pulled up on before.

Fulcanelli here, for example, was pushing the "the bloody bathmat footprint was clearly Raffaele's because he and Rudy had very different foot sizes" line long after he had been exposed to proof this was false. It took repeated beatings with the exact page on which the Massei report said their feet differed in size by only 3mm to get him to stop.

Both of them are considered just fine and dandy folks by the PMF posse.

I know. In my book should logically make AK & RS not guilty. If you reject the prosecution's case you reject the verdict.

You would think so.

The one proposition they won't let go of is that Knox is guilty. That's not really their conclusion so much as their starting point. Whatever evidence we discredit, it always turns out that evidence was never important anyway and it's that other evidence over there that is convincing. When we discredited the Massei report, it turned out the Massei report was never the whole story anyway and that the real evidence was secret. The facts get rearranged as necessary, but Knox's guilt is their one fixed point.

I agree. My point was they attract people with Right Wing Authoritarianism. I don't actually see any social dominators which is something you would need to form an actual cult. If you want to see a rather successful online cult, though it does have some tentacles in meatspace Bayly blog. I should mention they considered Church Discipline the #1 most evil site on the entire internet, which given their 10 years of running their blog and thus extensive exposure to all sorts of groups they hate, I considered a very high complement.

If we judge people by their enemies, you're surely in good shape.

 

[Draca]

Nov 2nd was a Sunny Day

The room was entered after 13:00. It was November, not a particularly sunny day. I guess in 2 - 3 hours the need for some additional light was substantial. The lamp could have been brought in at some moment then.
I wonder what is the earliest photo showing it on the floor?

I viewed part of the Nov 2nd cottage video. At 3:14 pm there is a shot where the cord to the lamp can be seen in the same position as the photos. Also at that time the number and letter placards had not yet been placed around the room. In ths Spheron photo that Chris posted you can see the numbers so the video was taken before spheron photo.

Another thing of note is there was plenty of natural light in the different rooms the cameraman was going through. There was a lot of light coming from the patio windows. Laura's room was probably the dimmest but even there, in the 3pm time frame there was light. It looks like it was a mostly sunny day. When there is video outside or looking out windows from the cottage is looks like a sunny day overall.

Because of the placard we know this photo was taken after 3:14 pm
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=185001314857681&set=a.124466634244483.15396.106344459390034


My top two theories on the lamp:

1. MK borrowed it and it ended up behind the door during the struggle or being kicked there by RG.

2. RG got the lamp to look through MK's purse while digging for the keys and some money.


Question. There is a screw on MK's bed. Was it ever determined where it came from? The door? or lamp?

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=185304448160701&set=a.124466634244483.15396.106344459390034