Chaos Magic

[PixyMisa]

Have you ever wondered if debating and arguing with him like this might be what he wants? Remember, he does enjoy "intelligent debate"

What he wants is largely beside the point.

 

[tsig]

Translation: "The reasonable explanation is that all events must conform to my expectations of reality"



Translation: "If someone rejects my conception of reality a little humor at their expense seems appropriate."




Oh, no -- you're perfectly justified in all your conduct. You're an unassailable paragon of maturity and reason.

Thank you!

 

[dafydd]

Have you ever wondered if debating and arguing with him like this might be what he wants? Remember, he does enjoy "intelligent debate"

Great,when he is going to start?

 

[Sledge]

Great,when he is going to start?

Bdum-tsh!

 

[AkuManiMani]

Have you ever wondered if debating and arguing with him like this might be what he wants? Remember, he does enjoy "intelligent debate"

As I've already said, I prefer the type of discussions I've had with Pure Argent, Mirrorglass, et al. If individuals want a civil discussion with me then they must approach me civilly -- its as simple as that.

 

[AkuManiMani]

AkuManiMani, you have a simple argument from incredulity. There is something you cannot explain, so you are ascribing paranormal explanation(s). As I said earlier, this isn't unusual. Lots of people believe in those things. It's not arrogance or disbelief on my part; as I stated earlier, it's the entire history of research into these things via the scientific method^WP. I'm sorry that you won't use this method to evaluate your story, but that's your loss.

There is no evidence for the paranormal, other than anecdotes like yours. That you arrogantly presume to be immune to memory fallibility and confabulation, two things I have experienced with 100% certainty, is just that - arrogance. This trait is common with people whose stories make them feel special; I have seen myriad posters act just like you - King of the Americas and Limbo among them. If your story makes you feel special, fine. Just don't expect critical thinkers to draw "paranormal" from anecdotes, and don't act offended when they don't.

I especially liked the part where you conveniently sidestep just about every single point I made in the previous post to bat at your own straw-man arguments.

However, now that you are calling me names, that's enough for me.

Thats certainly your prerogative. It was apparent that this discussion wasn't going to go anywhere anyway, name calling or not.

 

[AkuManiMani]

See, this is really pointless.

It would seem so.

 

[carlitos]

It's like some people think that intelligent debate involves logical fallacies.

 

[tsig]

As I've already said, I prefer the type of discussions I've had with Pure Argent, Mirrorglass, et al. If individuals want a civil discussion with me then they must approach me civilly -- its as simple as that.

Was there a point to this post?

 

[annnnoid]

It's not "conception" or "expectations" of reality, AkuManiMani. It's reality. As tested, observed, verified, but millions of scientists over hundreds of years, amounting to an immense mountain of fantastically successful knowledge that says that your interpretation of your experience is pure fancy.

....and you achieved omnipotence when Pixy?????

Question Pixy: Have you yet been able to establish that a human consciousness is the same thing as a washing machine (SRIP)? Not yet? Could it possibly be that there is slightly more to the question?

“ Human actions or things unspecified can influence quantum indeterminism in scientifically-undetectable ways. It makes little difference at this point whether you want to call this "free will", "witchcraft", "ESP" or anything else. Call it what you like. This is what is relevant:

(a) it's real
(b) science can't reliably investigate it (or much of anything that occurs in 'us')
(c) it's weird enough that most of the people on this board naturally want to reject it
(d) it is related to religious beliefs ”

You may quite reasonably question the details of this entire theory but the simple indisputable fact is that nobody really has a clue what consciousness is or how it works (or what it’s capabilities truly are). Though it seems to grieve many an atheist to admit it, our understanding of human nature is, as Chomsky said, thin…and likely to remain so (and he’s not the only one to recognize this fact). What we do most indisputably know is that human beings exhibit a huge range of behavior and experiences…experiences that do drift into the areas known as mysticism and PSI.

Many many people report experiences of these kinds. This is a fact. It is also a fact ….indisputable …that we do not know the true nature of these experiences (any more than we know the true nature of our own consciousness). To suggest otherwise is simple scientific illiteracy. Ignorance in other words. To dismiss outright someone else's experiences is blatant bigotry (....gasp...not at JREF...say it aint' so).

….It is also, I suppose, a fact that many of the skeptics on these boards would rather stick pencils in their eyes than ever consider the possibility that such things actually occur. So much for impartial assessment.

My best friend is an atheist (and so, according to a recent periodical, is Jodie Foster [do you suppose she might actually post here under some pseudonym?]...not exactly a surprise.... though I suspect her brand of atheism might find rough going at JREF given that one of her good friends is the most famous Scientologist in the world...another is one of the most famous Christans in the world...her mother is reportedly a devout Muslim....and she herself is prone to using the dreaded 'S' word)….so I am somewhat reluctant to speak in generalities, but I always like what Scott Atran had to say about atheists tendency to require explanations for everything:

I find it fascinating that among the brilliant scientists and philosophers at the conference, there was no convincing evidence presented that they know how to deal with the basic irrationality of human life and society other than to insist against all reason and evidence that things ought to be rational and evidence based. It makes me embarrassed to be a scientist and atheist.

 

[PixyMisa]

....and you achieved omnipotence when Pixy?????

That's hardly required.

Question Pixy: Have you yet been able to establish that a human consciousness is the same thing as a washing machine (SRIP)?

The same thing? Do you have any idea what you are talking about?

“ Human actions or things unspecified can influence quantum indeterminism in scientifically-undetectable ways.

Baloney.

It makes little difference at this point whether you want to call this "free will", "witchcraft", "ESP" or anything else. Call it what you like.

I call it: Fantasy.

This is what is relevant:

(a) it's real

Evidence?

(b) science can't reliably investigate it (or much of anything that occurs in 'us')

Does it happen? I mean, actually happen in the real world, not in some third-rate Star Trek knock-off?

If so, it can be investigated by science.

If not, it is, as I said, a fantasy.

(c) it's weird enough that most of the people on this board naturally want to reject it

Appeal to motive, begging the question. Two fallacies for the price of one.

(d) it is related to religious beliefs ”

And if so, so what?

You may quite reasonably question the details of this entire theory

What theory? You presented twaddle. Try not to confuse the two.

but the simple indisputable fact is that nobody really has a clue what consciousness is or how it works (or what it’s capabilities truly are).

That's simply untrue. We know quite well what consciousness is and how it works, and we know extremely well what its capabilities truly are.

This is just the argument from incredulance - ignorance and incredulity circling eternally like Ouroboros.

Though it seems to grieve many an atheist to admit it, our understanding of human nature is, as Chomsky said, thin…and likely to remain so (and he’s not the only one to recognize this fact). What we do most indisputably know is that human beings exhibit a huge range of behavior and experiences…experiences that do drift into the areas known as mysticism and PSI.

More fantasy.

We don't reject this nonsense because it makes us uncomfortable. That's just a convenient lie to cover up the abject failure of anyone to produce any evidence whatsoever to support this tripe in any way, shape, or form.

Evidence.

We're waiting. Clock is ticking.

Many many people report experiences of these kinds. This is a fact.

So?

It is also a fact ….indisputable …that we do not know the true nature of these experiences (any more than we know the true nature of our own consciousness).

Argument from ignorance.

To suggest otherwise is simple scientific illiteracy. Ignorance in other words.

Argument from personal incredulity.

To dismiss outright someone else's experiences is blatant bigotry (....gasp...not at JREF...say it aint' so).

Ad hominem.

….It is also, I suppose, a fact that many of the skeptics on these boards would rather stick pencils in their eyes than ever consider the possibility that such things actually occur. So much for impartial assessment.

We are perfectly willing to impartially assess any evidence you chose to provide.

My best friend is an atheist (and so, according to a recent periodical, is Jodie Foster [do you suppose she might actually post here under some pseudonym?]...not exactly a surprise.... though I suspect her brand of atheism might find rough going at JREF given that one of her good friends is the most famous Scientologist in the world...another is one of the most famous Christans in the world...her mother is reportedly a devout Muslim....and she herself is prone to using the dreaded 'S' word)….so I am somewhat reluctant to speak in generalities, but I always like what Scott Atran had to say about atheists tendency to require explanations for everything:

I find it fascinating that among the brilliant scientists and philosophers at the conference, there was no convincing evidence presented that they know how to deal with the basic irrationality of human life and society other than to insist against all reason and evidence that things ought to be rational and evidence based. It makes me embarrassed to be a scientist and atheist.

Argument by rambling irrelevance.

 

[PixyMisa]

Was there a point to this post?

Yes. AkuManiMani is explaining that he doesn't like having to support his argument with reason or evidence, so please don't make him do that.

 

[dafydd]

Was there a point to this post?

Yes, "Look at me,look at me!"

 

[dlorde]

Question Pixy: Have you yet been able to establish that a human consciousness is the same thing as a washing machine (SRIP)?

Have you stopped beating your wife?

Could it possibly be that there is slightly more to the question?

Well, duh.

 

[annnnoid]

Well that worked quite well. You’re still in fine form there Pixy.

That's simply untrue. We know quite well what consciousness is and how it works, and we know extremely well what its capabilities truly are.

And for an appropriate response, I’ll quote you again Pixy:

Do you have any idea what you are talking about?

There are many, besides Chomsky, who flatly disagree with your glowing assessment of the state of our understanding of consciousness. The never-ending conflicts on the various consciousness-related boards would also seem to blatantly contradict your position.

As for evidence, there’s lots of it….and more arriving all the time (I’d refer to Bem’s recent experiments but doubtless you’re familiar with those). The fact is, it’s an incredibly complex and unique area of study….and one which is fraught with massive prejudices (on both sides of the issues). I could point you to a number of individuals who explore the subject in a balanced and comprehensive manner (Braude, Radin, and Bem for example) but there’s no more point in doing that than there is in actually discussing them. As many a hapless poster has discovered at JREF before, you’ve all already pre-judged the issue.

I’ve watched a number JREF contributors post anecdotes relating extremely unusual and for the most part very well documented experiences that simply have no explanation (I could name each of them….they’ve all been, like AkuManiMani….extremely intelligent, capable, and, for the most part…skeptical) . Their experiences have invariably been presented in a very balanced and open manner. In other words, they’ve never suggested ESP or supernatural or paranormal or this or that or anything. They’ve simply tried to present the facts as they know them.

….and what has happened….every…single…time.

Liar, fool, dreamer, moron,…insults, derision, ridicule, contempt.

Every…single…time.

Like I said, most of you would rather stick pencils in your eyes than even consider the possibility. If you’re really interested, track down some of the work of those names I’ve mentioned (there’s lots more)….but I truly doubt any of you are interested. You’re only interested in preserving the bubble of ignorance you live in. The evidence really is overwhelming though (dump your prejudices for a few minutes and actually look)….and as science expands it’s understanding and it’s ability to confidently explore these issues it will become more overwhelming still.

But…most JREF’ers have already come to their own conclusions, despite our massive ignorance of what it is we’re even studying. Conclusion: explicit proof of scientific illiteracy (among skeptics….blasphemy!!!!)…IOW…assuming conclusions when the jury is still not just out but massively out on what it is that we’re even studying and despite numerous examples of phenomena for which we simply have no definitive or often even viable explanation (if may come as a genuine surprise to many here but to simply decide that someone is hallucinating actually is not a viable scientific explanation).

Sorry Pixy, but for you to claim that we already pretty much know everything there is to know about consciousness is, to borrow your expression, utter fantasy.

 

[tsig]

Yes. AkuManiMani is explaining that he doesn't like having to support his argument with reason or evidence, so please don't make him do that.

So he's preaching not arguing then.

 

[tsig]

But…most JREF’ers have already come to their own conclusions, despite our massive ignorance of what it is we’re even studying. Conclusion: explicit proof of scientific illiteracy (among skeptics….blasphemy!!!!)…IOW…assuming conclusions when the jury is still not just out but massively out on what it is that we’re even studying and despite numerous examples of phenomena for which we simply have no definitive or often even viable explanation (if may come as a genuine surprise to many here but to simply decide that someone is hallucinating actually is not a viable scientific explanation).

Sorry Pixy, but for you to claim that we already pretty much know everything there is to know about consciousness is, to borrow your expression, utter fantasy.

Speak for your self please. No one claims to know everything but to deny what we do kmow is retreating to willful ignorance in the face of unpleasant facts.

 

[carlitos]

I’ve watched a number JREF contributors post anecdotes relating extremely unusual and for the most part very well documented experiences that simply have no explanation (I could name each of them….they’ve all been, like AkuManiMani….extremely intelligent, capable, and, for the most part…skeptical) . Their experiences have invariably been presented in a very balanced and open manner.

I think that you are reading a different thread than I am.

AkuManiMani described a near-sleep episode where he had a spark-like sensation in his head, and had the sensation of having a conversation with a voice. He claims to have received information, and verified it 2 weeks later. He won't tell us what that information was. From this experience, which is similar to experience that many of us on this thread have had, he assumes shaman and spirits.

Are you reading a different thread?

 

[Resume]

I’ve watched a number JREF contributors post anecdotes relating extremely unusual and for the most part very well documented experiences that simply have no explanation

No, these experiences have explanations, but in some cases that explanation is not readily apparent, or handwaved by the claimant.

 

[annnnoid]

Speak for your self please. No one claims to know everything ........

That's simply untrue. We know quite well what consciousness is and how it works, and we know extremely well what its capabilities truly are.

....no one claims to know everything. I’d say Pixy comes pretty close.

The point is, just how much is there that we don’t know (and what issues do the work of those individuals I mentioned implicate?)?

Why do you think it is that the case remains up until this very moment that the ONLY way a scientist (or anyone) has of determining exactly what is happening within the subjective consciousnesses of another human being is by self-report.

It may come as a bit of surprise to you Carlitos…but just because you have had similar experiences it does not automatically follow that you actually understand what is, or is not, going on (perhaps your conclusion of delusion is itself the delusion). Actually, it can be quite easily and indisputably demonstrated that you don’t have the slightest understanding of a single thing that you are (you, like everyone, just think you do….actually one of the most famous atheists in the world came to a very similar conclusion not too long ago…I wonder if anyone noticed?)….but perhaps we’ll leave that for another time.