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USA torturing Bradley Manning

No. Was Manning wrong to do what he did?

Edging towards yes. The only thing I've seen that's borderline necessary exposure is the yemen drone attacks, but I'm going to say that's pointless too since we're generally cool with similar collateral damage rates from drone attacks on compounds that we think terrorists are using.

If he had actually raked some muck, then I'd be on his side. As it is, it rates a "meh." He spilled a big heap of nothing, but the nothing that came out didn't seem very damaging to the US, so I'm not that concerned.

I was just pointing out that there's plenty of 'the country' that either didn't want those files confidential or didn't care.
 

monstersl.jpg
 
Apologies for a slight derail, but am I the only person who would prefer to be in solitary confinement as opposed to gen-pop if incarcerated?

Being alone with my thoughts doesn't scare me, violent prisoners, on the other hand, do.

My understanding is that 'protective custody' differs from 'solitary confinement'. Sounds like you want PC.
 
You may not be aware of this, but it is technically public knowledge: the information security parameters that allowed Manning access to classified data of such a wide range are the result of 9/11, whereafter it was determined that federal authorities may have had a better chance of preventing the tragedy if the various intelligence and intelligence-related agencies collaborated and pooled their data. Prior to that time, the intelligence community was stovepipe-organized, with each agency keeping their information to themselves and guarding what they saw as their "territory". In response, agencies were encouraged to pool intelligence so that law enforcement and military analysts could access it all and develop a "bigger picture" that would help them do their jobs better.

Recently some agencies have withdrawn their participation in the "pool" explicitly in response to the Wikileaks affair - most notably the State Department - because obviously the DoD has rodent issues. This is a tremendous step backward for American anti-terrorism efforts, and intelligence analysis in general, and might easily contribute to the success of an attack they may otherwise have been prevented with the help of intel that's no longer being shared by the spooked agencies.

In addition, contrary to popular opinion (which seems to be that "classification is spiraling out of control"), the trend lately is ever-slightly-more transparency; what with the passage of the FOIA act, overhauls of classification systems, and whatnot. Did you know, for example, that last year for the first time in US history, America's intelligence budget was publicly released on the numbers? Before, it had been "hidden" by simply being included in general funds or specific agencies' and departments' overall budgets, and secretly earmarked "after taxes", as it were. Tiny steps, to be sure, but in the right direction. The Wikileaks affair has thrown a stick in that bicycle's spokes, and agencies are being ordered to clamp down on secrecy and information security like never before. Manning actually short-circuited the slow but real progress of the federal government away from Cold War-era classification policy.

Hope this helps.

Are US intelligence agencies unable to share information with each other securely?
 
So, the word "torture" has pretty much lost all meaning, then?

This is what happens to spies. By their very existence, spies are a security risk. It's not just the information they stole that makes them such, but how they stole it and how they got away with it and even how they got caught. They can tell these things to other inmates, who can use this info to reap even more damage.

Because of this, you just can't have these guys having unmonitored communications with random people, especially inmates in a military holding facility, many of whom will likely be back at their jobs after serving their misdemeanor sentence or being acquitted at trial.

Manning had to know all of this. It's not like the military is shy about detailing the penalties for violating it's rules. It's likely he thought he could get off on the technicality that he wasn't actually spying for anyone in particular.
 
How he stole the information is virtually common knowledge now, as is how he got away with it AND how he got caught. In fact, I would venture a guess (utterly impossible to prove by my own admission) that the prisoners are some of the few people left that DON'T know these things.
 
re: That Cartoon.

If the USA were even a FRACTION as monstrous as the cartoon suggested, then the entire Middle East would be a contiguous sheet of glass
 
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How he stole the information is virtually common knowledge now, as is how he got away with it AND how he got caught. In fact, I would venture a guess (utterly impossible to prove by my own admission) that the prisoners are some of the few people left that DON'T know these things.

No, we don't. We have an overview of these things parceled out via second hand sources and the people who caught him. Manning can provide details left out of the current reports that could potentially serve as at least a fair starting off point for someone else to do the same thing. And that potential is enough.

The gov't doesn't have to trust that he doesn't know anything else. In fact, by breaking his clearance thousands of times, he's proven that it can't trust him at all. So, he gets to stew in solitary like any spy who gets caught.
 
Are US intelligence agencies unable to share information with each other securely?

Not anymore. That was the point I just made. Why don't you reread that thing you just quoted.

Let me summarize:

Bradley Manning has hurt the US in two ways; firstly, by directly causing the breakdown of an intelligence-sharing resource which now must be replaced, during which time national safety and security is compromised; and by completely brick-walling the course toward de-classification that the US was on.

In addition, by making public thousands of battle reports and war correspondence from all levels in the field, from which operation organization, structure, and procedure can be easily deduced, Manning has essentially provided the US ground operations playbook for free to absolutely any adversary the US is currently facing or may face in the future. That is providing aid to the enemy by definition, which makes him, Constitutionally-speaking, a traitor.
 
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Not anymore. That was the point I just made. Why don't you reread that thing you just quoted.

Let me summarize:

Bradley Manning has hurt the US in two ways; firstly, by directly causing the breakdown of an intelligence-sharing resource which now must be replaced, during which time national safety and security is compromised; and by completely brick-walling the course toward de-classification that the US was on.

In addition, by making public thousands of battle reports and war correspondence from all levels in the field, from which operation organization, structure, and procedure can be easily deduced, Manning has essentially provided the US ground operations playbook for free to absolutely any adversary the US is currently facing or may face in the future. That is providing aid to the enemy by definition, which makes him, Constitutionally-speaking, a traitor.

But that's not really a big deal, right? I mean, aside from raising taxes on other people as necessary to provide me with health care, it's not like the government does anything important, does it?
 
Bradley Manning has hurt the US in two ways; firstly, by directly causing the breakdown of an intelligence-sharing resource which now must be replaced, during which time national safety and security is compromised; and by completely brick-walling the course toward de-classification that the US was on.

Not actually true. At the moment a few departments (mainly the DoS) has stopped access, but with a few extra security protocols (ie banning all removable data storage devices including CD-ROMs and DVD-ROMs, Removable SSDs, and ISB Flask sticks) then the network will be restored. SIPRNet is a very secure resource and works well. The flaw was Human, not technical. The US isn't going to be replacing it.

In addition, by making public thousands of battle reports and war correspondence from all levels in the field, from which operation organization, structure, and procedure can be easily deduced, Manning has essentially provided the US ground operations playbook for free to absolutely any adversary the US is currently facing or may face in the future.

This isn't true either. For the most part the documents released, even form the Iraq and Afghanistan files, didn't hold a lot of information that wasn't either already known or already suspected. The DoS files had nothing of value in them, just some stuff that confirmed what people already knew, and some embarassing personal things. Those that have studied them files and deal with this stuff all the time have pretty much written all three leaks off and less than pointless as they don't contain anything vital or earth shaking that hadn't been decuced otherwise. The worse the leaks have done is outed some people who have helped the American forces (which is rather bad as it endangers them) and the second worse they have done is ended a few Diplomatic careers. As for having "provided the US ground operations playbook for free to absolutely any adversary the US is currently facing", in fact that was already handed to Al Qaeda years back.

That is providing aid to the enemy by definition, which makes him, Constitutionally-speaking, a traitor.

I think that your argument has enough reasonable doubt in it to drive a 747 though it with room to spare.
 
Not anymore. That was the point I just made. Why don't you reread that thing you just quoted.

Let me summarize:

Bradley Manning has hurt the US in two ways; firstly, by directly causing the breakdown of an intelligence-sharing resource which now must be replaced, during which time national safety and security is compromised; and by completely brick-walling the course toward de-classification that the US was on.

In addition, by making public thousands of battle reports and war correspondence from all levels in the field, from which operation organization, structure, and procedure can be easily deduced, Manning has essentially provided the US ground operations playbook for free to absolutely any adversary the US is currently facing or may face in the future. That is providing aid to the enemy by definition, which makes him, Constitutionally-speaking, a traitor.


If US intelligence security is so easily undermined then Wikileaks has done them a favor by highlighting it.

How can an Australian be a traitor in the USA?
 
Not actually true. At the moment a few departments (mainly the DoS) has stopped access,

That is the only thing that matters. However long it takes to approve and implement your "few simple procedures" is time when intelligence integrity is compromised.


This isn't true either. For the most part the documents released, even form the Iraq and Afghanistan files, didn't hold a lot of information that wasn't either already known or already suspected. The DoS files had nothing of value in them, just some stuff that confirmed what people already knew, and some embarassing personal things. Those that have studied them files and deal with this stuff all the time have pretty much written all three leaks off and less than pointless as they don't contain anything vital or earth shaking that hadn't been decuced otherwise. The worse the leaks have done is outed some people who have helped the American forces (which is rather bad as it endangers them) and the second worse they have done is ended a few Diplomatic careers. As for having "provided the US ground operations playbook for free to absolutely any adversary the US is currently facing", in fact that was already handed to Al Qaeda years back.

Manning does not get to take credit for the unforeseen consequences of his actions. He published every single classified file he could get his hands on; if we're to assume that the "none of the information is important" isn't simply downplay (along the "it's not such a big deal that the missile test failed" line, which is more likely exactly what it is; the US can't very well publicly state that the secrets of the American military universe can, in fact, be gleaned from the data), then it's purely chance that none of the files Manning distributed were so crucial. Nevertheless, he stole all the classified data he could and gave it to somebody with the understanding that it would be published globally, where the US's military enemies could freely access it.

ETA: Put another way, imagine a Civil War era soldier who is tasked with delivering a message to the front lines saying "reinforcements will be at this location", and instead of delivering the message to the intended recipient, he takes it to the enemy commander. If, while that message is being delivered, the original commander changes his mind and decides to send the reinforcements to a different location, our soldier doesn't get out of a treason charge simply because the instructions he gave to the enemy ultimately proved invalid. The fact of the matter is, he was given material which at the time he either knew for certain, or had reason to believe, was crucial to the battle plan and he chose to give that material to the enemy; end of story.
 
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If US intelligence security is so easily undermined then Wikileaks has done them a favor by highlighting it.

How can an Australian be a traitor in the USA?

Setting aside your opinion of his treatment, what's your opinion of his actions?
 
That is the only thing that matters. However long it takes to approve and implement your "few simple procedures" is time when intelligence integrity is compromised.

Yes, because everyone knows that the US's intelligence services are totally unable to function without their morning coffee and the ability to read the last diplomatic gossip columns from the DoS.

Manning does not get to take credit for the unforeseen consequences of his actions. He published every single classified file he could get his hands on.

No, he leaked them, he didn't publish them, the media did that, and we don't know that he took everything "he could get his hands on" at all. From my understanding having read up on it all, he took what he considered to be in the public interest to know.

if we're to assume that the "none of the information is important" isn't simply downplay (along the "it's not such a big deal that the missile test failed" line, which is more likely exactly what it is; the US can't very well publicly state that the secrets of the American military universe can, in fact, be gleaned from the data), then it's purely chance that none of the files Manning distributed were so crucial.

The assumptions are based on military commentators, not the military trying damage control.

Nevertheless, he stole all the classified data he could and gave it to somebody with the understanding that it would be published globally

And that is what he should be charged with, but that isn't treason.

where the US's military enemies could freely access it.

Free access doesn't equate to aid and comfort.

ETA: Put another way, imagine a Civil War era soldier who is tasked with delivering a message to the front lines saying "reinforcements will be at this location", and instead of delivering the message to the intended recipient, he takes it to the enemy commander. If, while that message is being delivered, the original commander changes his mind and decides to send the reinforcements to a different location, our soldier doesn't get out of a treason charge simply because the instructions he gave to the enemy ultimately proved invalid. The fact of the matter is, he was given material which at the time he either knew for certain, or had reason to believe, was crucial to the battle plan and he chose to give that material to the enemy; end of story.

And for doing that he'd deserve to get a treason charge too. However, unfortunately for you, your nice little story isn't anything like what Manning actually did with these leaks.

Manning wasn't tasked to deliever a vital battle instructions or troop locations. Nor did he take any information directly to any enemy commander. Finally, the value of the information didn't change between his getting it and his handing it over.

A closer analogy would be this:

Our solider is tasked to read all of the Commander's diaries on a daily basis, then condense the information in them into a report and pass that on to the General. In the course of his duties he starts to read things he feels are wrong, some reports about soliders looting farms, shooting civilians, and also a few rather uncensored descriptions of local milita commanders and the general staff. He copies down these reports and sneaks them out to a national newspaper reporter who then prints them.

Has this soldier commited treason? He has certainly embrassed his commanding officers. He has let out information that they didn't want released, he may have even allowed that information to get into the enemies hands, though it's not likely that much use to the them, if any use at all. But in all of that there is zero evidence that he has provided any aid or comfort to the enemy. He still should be charged for the breach of confidence, but that's it.
 
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