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Be a good little atheist...

Thinking less of others because they don't share your belief system is unappealing whether it comes from a theist or an atheist.
Honestly, I wouldn't know where to begin responding to something like this. It really just makes no sense. Not judging people based on whether they believe truths or falsehoods would make it impossible to treat people as they deserve and would be utterly defaulting on our human obligation to practice the virtue of justice.

We obviously have very different views of the world, of humanity, and of the relationship between them. I'm not sure where we could start on making each other see our points of view. On the bright side, at least I don't have to worry about you judging me for not sharing your belief system.

Whether people choose to believe things only to the extent the evidence actually justifies believing them and whether they base their actions on defensible positions or indefensible ones are the best measures of personal character that there are. Rational people can, and must, judge people on the extent to which they act in these ways.
 
An adult who believes Santa Claus literally exists as a being is going against what every adult around him or her believes, based on evidence that most 9-year-olds can see through. That's on a whole different level than someone who believes what trusted adults have taught them since early childhood and which those adults themselves believe.
 
Whether people choose to believe things only to the extent the evidence actually justifies believing them and whether they base their actions on defensible positions or indefensible ones are the best measures of personal character that there are. Rational people can, and must, judge people on the extent to which they act in these ways.
No.

Whether people honor their commitments, treat people kindly irrespective of their station in life, don't lie for personal gain, behave respectably even when they think no one's watching, and take responsibility for their mistakes are better measures of personal character.

Whether they choose to believe something indefensible (i.e., "Professional wrestling is the most entertaining form of drama") is so far down the scale that it's irrelevant in most cases.
 
Honestly, I wouldn't know where to begin responding to something like this. It really just makes no sense. Not judging people based on whether they believe truths or falsehoods
So, by this do I understand that you've got a foolproof method of telling one from the other, are never successfully tricked or lied to, have all the facts possible about every idea you embrace... and expect everyone else to as well, else they are "flawed" or "lesser" somehow?

...would make it impossible to treat people as they deserve..
And how is that, specifically?

...and would be utterly defaulting on our human obligation to practice the virtue of justice.
What exactly does this "virtue of justice" consist of?

Whether people choose to believe things only to the extent the evidence actually justifies believing them and whether they base their actions on defensible positions or indefensible ones are the best measures of personal character that there are.
Absolute bollocks. Some of the people I best admire (for other reasons, obviously) believed things that are (at least, in my view) really horrible and completely indefensible.
 
Honestly, I wouldn't know where to begin responding to something like this. It really just makes no sense. Not judging people based on whether they believe truths or falsehoods would make it impossible to treat people as they deserve and would be utterly defaulting on our human obligation to practice the virtue of justice.

I don't mean to derail (and we can discuss this in a new thread, if you want), but I think it's somewhat ironical to condemn people who believe falsehoods, and in the same sentence evoke a "human obligation to practice the virtue of justice". Is there truly such a thing as "virtue of justice", and where exactly does this obligation to practice it come from?
 
I see there have been some good responses to this already. Bokonon, Piscivore and Mirrorglass have all given excellent responses.

Honestly, I wouldn't know where to begin responding to something like this. It really just makes no sense. Not judging people based on whether they believe truths or falsehoods
Well, I tend to judge them on whether they tell truths or falsehoods. :) Not quite the same thing though.
would make it impossible to treat people as they deserve and would be utterly defaulting on our human obligation to practice the virtue of justice.
Really? Tell me, what do you think of someone who believes a falsehood like "All men are created equal" and treats people as if that were always true. What do you think of someone who believes that some races have a higher average I.Q. than others (a proposition which does have some empirical evidence to support it) and treats individuals of races with a lower average I.Q. as if they are inferior idiots?

We obviously have very different views of the world, of humanity, and of the relationship between them. I'm not sure where we could start on making each other see our points of view. On the bright side, at least I don't have to worry about you judging me for not sharing your belief system.
That's right. I assess other people regarding such traits as honesty, intelligence, and compassion. Not what they believe regarding various unfalsiable axioms about how the world began.
Whether people choose to believe things only to the extent the evidence actually justifies believing them and whether they base their actions on defensible positions or indefensible ones are the best measures of personal character that there are. Rational people can, and must, judge people on the extent to which they act in these ways.

I don't agree at all but as you said earlier, we have very different worldviews.
 
Absolute bollocks. Some of the people I best admire (for other reasons, obviously) believed things that are (at least, in my view) really horrible and completely indefensible.
Do they act on those beliefs?
 
Really? Tell me, what do you think of someone who believes a falsehood like "All men are created equal" and treats people as if that were always true.
It's not clear specifically what you mean. That's not sufficiently precise to make sense out of. If you mean they evaluate each person based on their individual merit, then I would say that's great -- that's precisely what I'm saying we must do. If you mean they literally treat people as if they were equal in capability, and so were just as happy to have a butcher do brain surgery as a trained surgeon, they're obviously a seriously broken individual.

Sayings like "all men are created equal" are not meant to be 'believed' in the normal sense of that word. They're meant to remind us that human beings are entitled to be judged as individuals or convey other similar concepts.

What do you think of someone who believes that some races have a higher average I.Q. than others (a proposition which does have some empirical evidence to support it) and treats individuals of races with a lower average I.Q. as if they are inferior idiots?
I would say they're defaulting on the human obligation to practice justice and ignoring the fact that all volitional beings are entitled to be evaluated on their own merits as something one moral being owes another.

I'm sure that various races do have different average IQs. Whether this is because of inaccuracies of the test, real differences of intelligence, genetic factors, environmental factors or something else, I have no idea. However, if someone held a rationally-justified view that, say, Asian Amerians scored 17 points better on average on an IQ test than Hispanics, then I wouldn't judge them negatively for knowing that or refusing to irrationally disbelieve it.

However, as I said, individuals are entitled to be evaluated as such. We have a moral obligation not to judge people based on their racial groups (to the extent it is practically possible to do so) even if such prejudices are statistically justified. It is simply something one human owes another.

That's right. I assess other people regarding such traits as honesty, intelligence, and compassion. Not what they believe regarding various unfalsiable axioms about how the world began.
What good is honesty for someone who believes falsehoods? Say someone has all the evidence needed to conclude that something is dangerous but he irrationally tells you it is safe. Is it better that he genuinely, but irrationally, believes it is safe for no reason than if he lies and tells you it's safe knowing it's not?

What good is intelligence when it is used to indiscriminately draw conclusions from both truths and falsehoods? What good is compassion when the information from which a person decides how to act compassionately (such as who to help and how to help them) is equally based on fiction as fact?

All these other virtues are useless without a rational fact base from which to practice them.

I don't agree at all but as you said earlier, we have very different worldviews.
Clearly.
 
I don't mean to derail (and we can discuss this in a new thread, if you want), but I think it's somewhat ironical to condemn people who believe falsehoods, and in the same sentence evoke a "human obligation to practice the virtue of justice". Is there truly such a thing as "virtue of justice", and where exactly does this obligation to practice it come from?
It's complicated to go into here, but the virtue of justice involves treating individuals as they deserve to be treated. The obligation to practice it comes from the nature of what it means to be a conscious, volitional being who is responsible for the foreseeable consequences of his actions. It is an extension of the reason I cannot torture you for pleasure -- because you have certain specific properties you are entitled to a certain type of treatment.

It would take many, many pages for me to explain a complete rational moral theory. And I doubt I could do it with most people because they don't share a sufficient common base with me. That doesn't mean they're wrong and I'm right. I accept that in this field, it is quite possible that my understanding is erroneous in many respects. However, I cannot imagine how any rational moral theory could avoid putting the virtue of justice pretty high up.

To use an analogy, imagine back before we understood the physical implementation of colors. We knew people agreed that the sky looked a different color from the grass usually, but we had no way to objectively measure color. Truly the best we could do is, "it looks blue to me".

We could still use color. And we could still reason about color. For example, we could be pretty sure that color was to a large extent an inherent property in the thing described as being a particular color but that how it was measured was effected by other conditions such as lighting. We could theorize that almost certainly the light was different somehow that our eyes detected, but we couldn't say exactly how.

That's kind of the situation I'm in with a rational theory of morality. There are some things we can say with a very, very high degree of confidence. And there are some things we still have to do a lot of hand-waving on or just "it looks blue to me, if you say the sky and the grass look the same color to you, you're either lying or broken in some way".

It is something I have been working on for many years.
 
It's complicated to go into here, but the virtue of justice involves treating individuals as they deserve to be treated.
Thare's that phrase again. What does it mean? How do people "deserve" to be treated?

The obligation to practice it comes from the nature of what it means to be a conscious, volitional being who is responsible for the foreseeable consequences of his actions. It is an extension of the reason I cannot torture you for pleasure -- because you have certain specific properties you are entitled to a certain type of treatment.
"Entitled" now, too. What are these "specific properties"? To what treatment do they "entitle" me?

It would take many, many pages for me to explain a complete rational moral theory... However, I cannot imagine how any rational moral theory could avoid putting the virtue of justice pretty high up.
You don't have to explain a complete rational moral theory, just what "virtue of justice" means.

To use an analogy, imagine back before we understood the physical implementation of colors. We knew people agreed that the sky looked a different color from the grass usually, but we had no way to objectively measure color. Truly the best we could do is, "it looks blue to me".

We could still use color. And we could still reason about color. For example, we could be pretty sure that color was to a large extent an inherent property in the thing described as being a particular color but that how it was measured was effected by other conditions such as lighting. We could theorize that almost certainly the light was different somehow that our eyes detected, but we couldn't say exactly how.

That's kind of the situation I'm in with a rational theory of morality. There are some things we can say with a very, very high degree of confidence. And there are some things we still have to do a lot of hand-waving on or just "it looks blue to me, if you say the sky and the grass look the same color to you, you're either lying or broken in some way".

It is something I have been working on for many years.
So basically you're just asserting that there somehow really is an objective morality "out there" even if you can't find it or explain what it is? Is that what you're trying to say?

Let me guess... the tenants of this "rational theory of morality" you've been working on so many years match the values you currently hold almost exactly, right?
 
It's complicated to go into here, but the virtue of justice involves treating individuals as they deserve to be treated. The obligation to practice it comes from the nature of what it means to be a conscious, volitional being who is responsible for the foreseeable consequences of his actions. It is an extension of the reason I cannot torture you for pleasure -- because you have certain specific properties you are entitled to a certain type of treatment.

It would take many, many pages for me to explain a complete rational moral theory. And I doubt I could do it with most people because they don't share a sufficient common base with me. That doesn't mean they're wrong and I'm right. I accept that in this field, it is quite possible that my understanding is erroneous in many respects. However, I cannot imagine how any rational moral theory could avoid putting the virtue of justice pretty high up.

To use an analogy, imagine back before we understood the physical implementation of colors. We knew people agreed that the sky looked a different color from the grass usually, but we had no way to objectively measure color. Truly the best we could do is, "it looks blue to me".

We could still use color. And we could still reason about color. For example, we could be pretty sure that color was to a large extent an inherent property in the thing described as being a particular color but that how it was measured was effected by other conditions such as lighting. We could theorize that almost certainly the light was different somehow that our eyes detected, but we couldn't say exactly how.

That's kind of the situation I'm in with a rational theory of morality. There are some things we can say with a very, very high degree of confidence. And there are some things we still have to do a lot of hand-waving on or just "it looks blue to me, if you say the sky and the grass look the same color to you, you're either lying or broken in some way".

It is something I have been working on for many years.

I do more or less understand what you are talking about. And I have to say, I believe it's fantasy with little basis on reality.

You are essentially saying that there is something like true justice, and that this something can be found if we just look hard enough. There also seems to be an implication that you are certain that you are very close to understanding what this true justice is, and if others are not precisely wrong, they at least don't understand the subject as well as you do.

On the other hand, in my opinion any concept of justice is purely created by humans, and at it's base level arbitrary. Such concepts are extremely useful, and I admit they are of great value - but that value comes from humans giving the concepts value, not any inherent property of the concepts themselves.

Of course, neither of us has a way of verifying that our views on the subject are accurate. Nevertheless, I could argue that because my worldview isn't invoking any mystical entities, such as justice, while yours does so without any evidence to back them up, mine is superior.

I'm not going to do that, of course. These things aren't about being superior. However, I'm hoping you will see the similarity between our situation and that between a believer and an atheist. One of us believes in an entity without any evidence. According to your ideas, this means I should judge you by this irrational belief and treat you accordingly. But is this how you would want to be treated? Do you believe I have the right, or rather the obligation to ridicule you because you hold a belief unsupportable by evidence?

My offer to discuss your theories on justice in a separate thread still stands, by the way. Although I should warn you that my position will be what's been outlined here; all moral systems and constructs are essentially imaginary, and while they have varying levels of usefulness, they are not something that can be discovered - only invented and developed.
 
So basically you're just asserting that there somehow really is an objective morality "out there" even if you can't find it or explain what it is? Is that what you're trying to say?
No, I'm not just asserting it. The same way I wouldn't just be "asserting" that the sky really is blue.

There is widespread agreement on the fact that the sky is blue such that even absent an understanding of why or how the sky is blue, I can be reasonably sure that anyone who says the sky and the grass always look the same color to them is either lying or broken. Otherwise, the ability of people to correctly identify blocks by color is inexplicable.

Similarly, there is widespread agreement that, for example, torturing children for pleasure is wrong. Is this a coincidence? Is it magic?

Let me guess... the tenants of this "rational theory of morality" you've been working on so many years match the values you currently hold almost exactly, right?
I've tried to do my best, but fail in many of the ways you'd imagine. I have problems similar to those you'd have if you tried to use color without a good scientific understanding of it.

For example, the sky doesn't always look blue. And color varies based on lighting. So how much of that color is inherent in the sky? While people generally agree torturing children for pleasure is wrong, how much of that is from objective properties of torturing children for pleasure. How much of that is from other sources (including errors of all kinds)? It's hard to say without a more precise theoretical foundation.

However, that I am capable of error and certainly have made and continue to make many errors doesn't mean that I'm wrong when I say I'm nearly certain about something. You have to refute the actual argument used to make that case.

Again, as I said, a rational theory of morality is beyond what could be explained in this forum and I doubt you and I have enough common ground to get very far on it anyway. I'm perfectly willing to admit what the limitations of my knowledge and reasoning are, but it is utterly invalid for you to claim that because I have limitations, I can be wrong when I an reasonably certain that I am not.
 
On the other hand, in my opinion any concept of justice is purely created by humans, and at it's base level arbitrary. Such concepts are extremely useful, and I admit they are of great value - but that value comes from humans giving the concepts value, not any inherent property of the concepts themselves.
You create a false dichotomy. If humans create something, then it in fact exists precisely as it is. Once created, it is an objective fact of reality.

As for it being arbitrary, then how can you possibly explain the widespread agreement that torturing children for pleasure is wrong? Is it coincidence? Is it magic? If many different people processing the same input produce the same output, it's nearly impossible to argue that they just made the output up.

It's true you can't say from what objective features the output's commonality results. It obviously is partially to do with the input, since different input gives different output. But it's also mixed with many other things.

It's just like if you asked 50,000 people around the world to tell you what color the sky is right now and what the color of the grass is right now. You will see that the agreement almost conclusively proves that there is something objective about the color of the sky. (Interestingly, the disagreements tell you even more.)

Even if people had just agreed that the sky is blue and the grass is green and there was nothing inherent in the grass and the sky that made them these colors, that wouldn't render the colors arbitrary. Grass, being the color that humans agreed to call grass, would no longer be arbitrary by virtue of the fact it had been arbitrarily picked. That green was chosen for grass would then be an objective property of green, grass, and us.

If you say all wrong means is that people agree that something is wrong (or is based on societal factors), then once people agree that something is wrong (or establish particular societal factors), it really is wrong, since that's what you said it meant for something to be wrong. Of course, no sane person argues that wrong is whatever people agree is wrong, but to the extent that's a factor, once people actually agree, then things really are wrong.
 
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Pain is subjective, but that doesn't mean that it is imaginary or that people don't experience it. It can also be measured at the brain level. What constitutes morality is a human construct, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't attempt to redefine it or shape it to meet a common goal. Harris put forth the similarity with regard to "health." It is dynamic, and even could be contested if one were to put up a model of what constitutes health, not unlike we do with the concept of morality based on time and place. Longevity, chronic diseases, etc. All of these contribute to a differing standard of health, but not many would argue for the proposition that living with leprosy constituted 'good health'. Relative to flesh eating virus or acquiring anthrax... It's all relative, isn't it?:rolleyes:
So while morality may be subjective, it certainly isn't imaginary, and discussions that bring it into the realm of how we can rationally approach, refine, and improve the social construction of 'morality' to decrease pain and suffering. I'm pretty sure the woman who gets the everloving **** pelted out of her with rocks for being in a room with a man other than her relatives or husband is right to feel slighted for the injustice of her situation. Calling the need to mitigate and resolve these social horrors imaginary surrenders any progressive vision of better living to the divinely inspired certainty of tyrannical barbarians. We can and should acquire this social construction to meet goals of decreasing suffering for conscious beings. If we have to sit around and ask, "but why?" then we should never have freed the slaves or fought for women's rights.
 
It's not clear specifically what you mean. That's not sufficiently precise to make sense out of. If you mean they evaluate each person based on their individual merit, then I would say that's great -- that's precisely what I'm saying we must do. If you mean they literally treat people as if they were equal in capability, and so were just as happy to have a butcher do brain surgery as a trained surgeon, they're obviously a seriously broken individual.
Sorry, I wasn’t very clear with that question.
Sayings like "all men are created equal" are not meant to be 'believed' in the normal sense of that word.
That was what I meant to convey; when we are discussing ideals and other intangibles, such as spirituality, it doesn’t make sense to discuss them as being ‘truth’ or ‘falsehoods’.
What good is honesty for someone who believes falsehoods?
We all believe falsehoods. Sometimes we are able to learn the truth, sometimes the errors get stuck in our brains. Does that mean there is no good in honesty?
Say someone has all the evidence needed to conclude that something is dangerous but he irrationally tells you it is safe. Is it better that he genuinely, but irrationally, believes it is safe for no reason than if he lies and tells you it's safe knowing it's not?
Yes, it’s better if he genuinely believes something safe than if he knowingly falsely tells you it is safe. For example, consider the issue of bad brakes on a car. What would you think of a person who loans you a car with bad brakes assuring you that it is safe to drive because he interpreted the evidence available as indicative of a different problem that would not be a safety concern? Wouldn’t you interpret the situation differently if you thought they had deliberately lied to you, effectively setting you up to have an accident? I certainly would.
What good is intelligence when it is used to indiscriminately draw conclusions from both truths and falsehoods? What good is compassion when the information from which a person decides how to act compassionately (such as who to help and how to help them) is equally based on fiction as fact?
We all struggle through life trying to discriminate between truth and falsehood. We use fictions such as ‘all men are created equal’ as a basis for our society. While the good we can do with intelligence and compassion might be diminished when we make mistakes regarding truth and falsehood, I think belief in fictional ideals can be a strength in making the best use of those qualities.
All these other virtues are useless without a rational fact base from which to practice them.
All virtues are practiced in a world in which we never have complete knowledge, but must make assumptions based on what we do know and believe. There are many theists doing good things in this world, exercising their intelligence, compassion and other virtues for the benefit of others. Since their efforts are clearly not useless, I can only conclude that either your statement is incorrect or theists have a rational fact base they are operating from.
 
You create a false dichotomy. If humans create something, then it in fact exists precisely as it is. Once created, it is an objective fact of reality.

It very much is not. It is something entirely subjective, even if more than one subjective opinion is involved.

As for it being arbitrary, then how can you possibly explain the widespread agreement that torturing children for pleasure is wrong? Is it coincidence? Is it magic? If many different people processing the same input produce the same output, it's nearly impossible to argue that they just made the output up.

This is problematic in many ways. The first, and most obvious, problem is that a lot of people do torture children for several reasons, pleasure being one of them. Millions of mothers and fathers do abuse their children physically, for no other discernible reason than a desire to do so. How do you explain this, if there is some objective part of reality that should prevent such things from happening?

Secondly, there is a very simple explanation as to why the desire to not torture children is widespread - evolution. Humans who greatly enjoy hurting their offspring are less likely to have their genes passed on, and so partially weed themselves out. As pointed out above, however, not all do.

It's true you can't say from what objective features the output's commonality results. It obviously is partially to do with the input, since different input gives different output. But it's also mixed with many other things.

It's just like if you asked 50,000 people around the world to tell you what color the sky is right now and what the color of the grass is right now. You will see that the agreement almost conclusively proves that there is something objective about the color of the sky. (Interestingly, the disagreements tell you even more.)

Your analogy here is rather flawed. Color is a physical property that can be both explained and repeatably and impartially observed. Justice is not. And indeed, this shows.

You are implying that the 50,000 people would also tell you torturing children is wrong - but the facts speak against you. Many of them would say hitting a child is perfectly acceptable. Many believe it's beneficial to force a child to study 16 hours a day. Some think it's right to mutilate young girls permanently and painfully, so that their husband will enjoy sex more. Hundreds of similar examples can be found, and they all demonstrate one thing - that morality is entirely subjective, entirely dependent on cultural context.

There are some moral rules common to almost all cultures. However, the ones that aren't explained by sharing information are easily explained by evolution.

Even if people had just agreed that the sky is blue and the grass is green and there was nothing inherent in the grass and the sky that made them these colors, that wouldn't render the colors arbitrary. Grass, being the color that humans agreed to call grass, would no longer be arbitrary by virtue of the fact it had been arbitrarily picked. That green was chosen for grass would then be an objective property of green, grass, and us.

I do not know what the name of this philosophy is, and I won't say that it's precisely wrong. If you want to define the words like that, it's fine - but you should realize that you are using the terms "arbitrary" and "objective" in a way that is divorced from their commonly accepted meanings.

If you say all wrong means is that people agree that something is wrong (or is based on societal factors), then once people agree that something is wrong (or establish particular societal factors), it really is wrong, since that's what you said it meant for something to be wrong. Of course, no sane person argues that wrong is whatever people agree is wrong, but to the extent that's a factor, once people actually agree, then things really are wrong.

"No sane person argues that wrong is whatever people agree is wrong"? Are you familiar with the term "poisoning the well"?

But anyway, as I've pointed out above, different cultures do indeed have very different views on what is right and what is wrong. People have agreed that female circumcision is a good thing. Other people have agreed it is torture. Which people are right? According to your claim above, both are, but this is quite inconsistent.

There's also another interesting angle. According to your politely worded claim, it's ridiculous to assume what is wrong is decided by people. Since that is the case, I assume you can provide an alternative theory. What, then, is the true source of morality?
 
We all believe falsehoods. Sometimes we are able to learn the truth, sometimes the errors get stuck in our brains. Does that mean there is no good in honesty?
To the extent a person believes falsehoods that affect the claims they make and things they do, their honesty is no good. A juror who does his best to reach a just verdict but convicts an innocent man out of dishonesty does not more harm than one who reaches an unjust verdict because he believes falsehoods through inexcusable error.

Yes, it’s better if he genuinely believes something safe than if he knowingly falsely tells you it is safe. For example, consider the issue of bad brakes on a car. What would you think of a person who loans you a car with bad brakes assuring you that it is safe to drive because he interpreted the evidence available as indicative of a different problem that would not be a safety concern? Wouldn’t you interpret the situation differently if you thought they had deliberately lied to you, effectively setting you up to have an accident? I certainly would.
I would treat them differently, but neither is particular better or worse. If the people willfully chose to ignore evidence that his brakes were bad or through negligent inaction failed to acquire information he should have, the fault attributable to the person is roughly equal.

False beliefs undermine all other virtues when they affect them. Willful or inexcusable false beliefs are as morally chargeable to those who act on them as these other ways they could cause the same harms.

We all struggle through life trying to discriminate between truth and falsehood. We use fictions such as ‘all men are created equal’ as a basis for our society. While the good we can do with intelligence and compassion might be diminished when we make mistakes regarding truth and falsehood, I think belief in fictional ideals can be a strength in making the best use of those qualities.
Well sure. Rational people do a good job of picking useful falsehoods to teach their children. There's a reason we don't teach children that Santa Claus only gives presents to bad children. And of course "all men are created equal" encodes an important truth that most adults ultimately come to understand even if they at some point misunderstand it.

However, what I'm saying is that we can, and must, judge people who base their actions on falsehoods for which there is no excuse.

All virtues are practiced in a world in which we never have complete knowledge, but must make assumptions based on what we do know and believe. There are many theists doing good things in this world, exercising their intelligence, compassion and other virtues for the benefit of others. Since their efforts are clearly not useless, I can only conclude that either your statement is incorrect or theists have a rational fact base they are operating from.
It is never the case that we "must make an assumption". Assumptions are always an error (unless properly tracked as assumptions and conclusions based on them identified as dependent on the assumption).

Sometimes we don't realize that we made an assumption because we have no idea there was any other way something could be. In a sense, that's not really an error if we had no reason to suspect that there were other possibilities.

I'm not saying every mistake is a moral failure. But some definitely are.
 
Thanks Mirrorglass and Beth. These are the sorts of calm, well thought out responses I like to read. They not only address the poster you are responding to but also make me think critically and logically about my own preconceptions.

I know, I'm being selfish. But even if you can't convince the theists of the correctness of your position at least you can help other atheists like myself work on our world view. After all, an important part of being an atheist is to think about the world around you.
 
Thanks Mirrorglass and Beth. These are the sorts of calm, well thought out responses I like to read. They not only address the poster you are responding to but also make me think critically and logically about my own preconceptions.

I know, I'm being selfish. But even if you can't convince the theists of the correctness of your position at least you can help other atheists like myself work on our world view. After all, an important part of being an atheist is to think about the world around you.

Aww, shucks. Now you're making me blush. :o
 

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