Merged Electric Sun Theory (Split from: CME's, active regions and high energy flares)

[Michael Mozina]

Was it? Could we please have a precise definition of what you think breakdown means then? Just so we're all clear.

Sure:

This generally occurs when the electromagnetic stress exceeds some threshold for breakdown that is usually detemined by small scale properties of the energy transmission medium.

Alfven's double layer paper describes such a process.

 

[D'rok]

Sure:



Alfven's double layer paper describes such a process.

<facepalm>

 

[Michael Mozina]

<facepalm>

Holy Cow! What do you want? I don't think *ANY* hater has *ONCE EVEN MENTIONED* Alfven's double layer paper! <facepalm indeed>

 

[Tubbythin]

Sure:



Alfven's double layer paper describes such a process.

That is not a definition of breakdown.

 

[nvidiot]

Michael, where could I find a quantitative description of the processes generating and releasing energy in the EU solar model?

It's generally not a good sign when you give a definition of a breakdown with the word, breakdown, in the definition. The question was "what is the definition of a breakdown", in your own words please.

 

[Michael Mozina]

Michael, where could I find a quantitative description of the processes generating and releasing energy in the EU solar model?

If you are talking about the energy source of the sun, Alfven, Bruce and Dungey all used the standard solar model in terms of the power supply. Only Jeurgen's model is externally powered in fact.

 

[D'rok]

Holy Cow! What do you want? I don't think *ANY* hater has *ONCE EVEN MENTIONED* Alfven's double layer paper! <facepalm indeed>

Peratt's definition of discharge requires a breakdown. You say Alfven's double layer paper meets this requirement. Tubbythin asks you to define breakdown so we can figure out how. You post Peratt's definition of discharge.

Circular logic is circular.

 

[Michael Mozina]

That is not a definition of breakdown.

In his books and his writings Alfven tells a story about how he was introduced to plasma physics via an exploding Mercury switch incident he was asked to investigate and explain. His double layer paper represents that same basic explanation in terms of an explosive double layer. The breakdown is related the maximum amount of "current flow" that a specific (thin) plasma can conduct before "exploding". The "breakdown" he describes in his double layer paper is not a breakdown of the dielectric medium.

 

[Michael Mozina]

Peratt's definition of discharge requires a breakdown. You say Alfven's double layer paper meets this requirement. Tubbythin asks you to define breakdown so we can figure out how. You post Peratt's definition of discharge.

Circular logic is circular.

No, I provided a "simple" definition of a "breakdown" in Peratt's definition and a more MATHEMATICALLY QUANTIFIED description in Alfven's double layer paper. There's nothing circular about it. It's just that nobody wants to deal with it or comment on Alfven's double layer paper. Is that somehow my fault?

 

[nvidiot]

What breaks down Michael? In your own words please.

 

[D'rok]

No, I provided a "simple" definition of a "breakdown" in Peratt's definition and a more MATHEMATICALLY QUANTIFIED description in Alfven's double layer paper. There's nothing circular about it. It's just that nobody wants to deal with it or comment on Alfven's double layer paper. Is that somehow my fault?

Sigh.

 

[Michael Mozina]

Circuit disruption: Breakdown of the circuit

From Alfven's keynote speech at the double layer conference:

D. Solar Prominence Circuit. Solar Flares

The circuit consists of a magnetic flux tube above the photosphere and part of photosphere (see Fig. 10). The generator is in the photosphere and is due to a whirl motion in sunspot magnetic field. Generator output increases circuit energy which can be dissipated in two different ways: ( 1 ) When current density surpasses critical value, an exploding DL is produced in which most of the circuit energy is released. This causes a solar flare. Hénoux (1985) has recently given an interesting study of solar flares and concludes that a current disruption by DL's is an appealing explanation of solar flares. (2) Under certain circumstances the electromagnetic pressure of the current loop may produce a motor which gives rise to a rising prominence (Alfvén and Carlqvist, 1967; Carlqvist, 1982b).

Emphasis mine.

 

[Ziggurat]

What breaks down Michael? In your own words please.

Apparently Michael thinks that a transition from a conducting state to a non-conducting state is the same thing as a transition from a non-conducting state to a conducting state.

 

[Michael Mozina]

Apparently Michael thinks that a transition from a conducting state to a non-conducting state is the same thing as a transition from a non-conducting state to a conducting state.

No, apparently I (and Alfven) believe(d) that such a transition satisfies the following conditions and produces the following results in plasma:

Originally Posted by Peratt
1 .5 Electrίcal Discharges in Cosmic Plasma
An electrical discharge is a sudden release of electric or magnetic stored energy . This generally occurs when the electromagnetic stress exceeds some threshold for breakdown that is usually detemined by small scale properties of the energy transmission medium. As such, discharges are local phenomena and are usually accompanied by violent prαesses such as rapid heating, ionization, the creation of pinched and filamentary conduction channels, particle acceleration, and the generation of prodigious amounts of electromagnetic radiatiοη.

Did you notice Alfven's use of the term "flare"?

 

[Ziggurat]

Did you notice Alfven's use of the term "flare"?

Since you attributed your quote to Peratt, and the word "flare" doesn't appear within it, no I did not notice Alfven's use of the term "flare".

But it would be quite the trick to be able to.

 

[Michael Mozina]

I meant this quote from the previous post:

D. Solar Prominence Circuit. Solar Flares

The circuit consists of a magnetic flux tube above the photosphere and part of photosphere (see Fig. 10). The generator is in the photosphere and is due to a whirl motion in sunspot magnetic field. Generator output increases circuit energy which can be dissipated in two different ways: ( 1 ) When current density surpasses critical value, an exploding DL is produced in which most of the circuit energy is released. This causes a solar flare. Hénoux (1985) has recently given an interesting study of solar flares and concludes that a current disruption by DL's is an appealing explanation of solar flares. (2) Under certain circumstances the electromagnetic pressure of the current loop may produce a motor which gives rise to a rising prominence (Alfvén and Carlqvist, 1967; Carlqvist, 1982b).

 

[GeeMack]

Since you attributed your quote to Peratt, and the word "flare" doesn't appear within it, no I did not notice Alfven's use of the term "flare".

But it would be quite the trick to be able to.

Yep. Pretty much definitive dishonesty.

 

[Reality Check]

http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewpr.html?pid=32448

As long as we're talking about intellectual honesty, let's talk cause/effect relationships established here on Earth. Here on Earth we observe that "discharges" occur in our atmosphere. Such "discharges' emit gamma rays, x-rays, high energy photons galore. They heat plasma to millions of degrees in the lab. They ionize iron to high states of ionization. They do *ALL* the things we observe in flares. An intellectually honest person would simply note that when we observe gamma rays, x-rays, and other high energy photon emissions from *ANY* atmosphere from any body in space, it's most like a "discharge" process involved.

As long as we're talking about intellectual honesty, let's talk about citing the known physics of lightning which are electrical discharges that require the breakdown of a dielectric medium (air). These electric discharges are known to emit

• • gamma rays,
  • x-rays,
  • high energy photons galore.

They heat plasma to millions of degrees in the lab. These temperatures ionize all (including iron) atoms to high states of ionization.

It is dishonest and delusional to think that this obervation about lightning has anything to do with solar flares which do not have a dielectric medium to break down.

An intellectually honest person would simply note that when we observe gamma rays, x-rays, and other high energy photon emissions from *ANY* atmosphere from any body in space and there is a dielectric medium to break down, it's most likely an electric discharge involved.

An intellectually honest person would note that some authors (especially in older papers and books) call large currents created by instabilities in plasmas, "electrical discharges". This has nothing to do with lightning.

The current theory about solar flares is that they are caused by magnetic reconnection events. Magnetic reconnection accelerates electrons and ions. This emits

• gamma rays,
• x-rays,
• high energy photons galore.

They heat plasma to millions of degrees in the lab. These temperatures ionize all (including iron) atoms to high states of ionization.

Solar flare

Scientific research has shown that the phenomenon of magnetic reconnection is responsible for solar flares. Magnetic reconnection is the name given to the rearrangement of magnetic lines of force when two oppositely directed magnetic fields are brought together. This rearrangement is accompanied with a sudden release of energy stored in the original oppositely directed fields.
On the Sun, magnetic reconnection may happen on solar arcades – a series of closely occurring loops of magnetic lines of force. These lines of force quickly reconnect into a low arcade of loops leaving a helix of magnetic field unconnected to the rest of the arcade. The sudden release of energy in this reconnection causes the solar flare. The unconnected magnetic helical field and the material that it contains may violently expand outwards forming a coronal mass ejection.[2]
This also explains why solar flares typically erupt from what are known as the active regions on the Sun where magnetic fields are much stronger on an average.

(no citations though)

Google Scholar has almost 16,000 results for "solar flare magnetic reconnection" so there are plenty of papers published about this.

 

[Michael Mozina]

As long as we're talking about intellectual honesty, let's talk about citing the known physics of lightning which are electrical discharges that require the breakdown of a dielectric medium (air).

So what? That does not mean that additional EM energy cannot be injected into a plasma! Oy. Round and round and round we go. How ionized is carbon in a low temperature area of a sunspot RC, say round 4800K? Neon? Photosphere pressures will be fine.

Quote:
Scientific research has shown that the phenomenon of magnetic reconnection is responsible for solar flares. Magnetic reconnection is the name given to the rearrangement of magnetic lines of force when two oppositely directed magnetic fields are brought together. This rearrangement is accompanied with a sudden release of energy stored in the original oppositely directed fields.

Where have I heard that before? Oh ya:

Originally Posted by Peratt
1 .5 Electrίcal Discharges in Cosmic PlasmaAn electrical discharge is a sudden release of electric or magnetic stored energy . This generally occurs when the electromagnetic stress exceeds some threshold for breakdown that is usually detemined by small scale properties of the energy transmission medium. As such, discharges are local phenomena and are usually accompanied by violent prαesses such as rapid heating, ionization, the creation of pinched and filamentary conduction channels, particle acceleration, and the generation of prodigious amounts of electromagnetic radiatiοη.

Round and round and round we go. When are you going to get off the denial merry-go-round?

 

[Reality Check]

No Circuit disruption: No Breakdown of the circuit

From Alfven's keynote speech at the double layer conference:

D. Solar Prominence Circuit. Solar Flares

The circuit consists of a magnetic flux tube above the photosphere and part of photosphere (see Fig. 10). The generator is in the photosphere and is due to a whirl motion in sunspot magnetic field. Generator output increases circuit energy which can be dissipated in two different ways: ( 1 ) When current density surpasses critical value, an exploding DL is produced in which most of the circuit energy is released. This causes a solar flare. Hénoux (1985) has recently given an interesting study of solar flares and concludes that a current disruption by DL's is an appealing explanation of solar flares. (2) Under certain circumstances the electromagnetic pressure of the current loop may produce a motor which gives rise to a rising prominence (Alfvén and Carlqvist, 1967; Carlqvist, 1982b).

Emphasis mine.

Wrong again MM !
There is no breakdown of a dielectric medium in that quote.

There is an exploding double layer. That was in 1985 a valid explanation for solar flares. It is less valid today because there is more evidence for magnetic reconnection in solar flares.

There is no circuit disruption and no breakdown of the circuit.
There is current disruption. The circuit model of solar flares never disrupts or breaks down.

Once again you have disproved your idea that solar flares are electrical discharges:

• Alfven thought that they were caused by exploding double layers.
• The modern theory is that they are caused by magnetic reconnection with double layers also playing a role in accelerating electrons.
  This is something you seem to agree with since you have no trouble with Dungey's use of "electrical discharges" (large currents) caused by magnetic reconnection.

Of course you are totally wrong in your idea that actual electrical discharges (your posts about lightning) causes solar flares beacuse that requires the breakdown of a dielectric medium.