Chaos Magic

[Tinyal]

And its only when a large number of credentialed people start having similar experiences and form a consensus about them does it become 'evidence'. Birlliant!

I said no such thing. Nor do I recall anyone else saying that.

Plus - it's not true. Millions of people can have auditory hallucinations, all of which can easily have mundane explanations. No matter how many people relate personal experiences, alot of them or just a few doesn't matter. Their personal experiences do not add up to evidence.

 

[AkuManiMani]

I'm not claiming anything supernatural occured. As a matter of fact I've already explained to Sceptic Tank that I do not 'believe in' the supernatural, as I think its merely a relative term.

Calling it a different name doesn't change the facts. Answer the question.

I can't just call violence " overly effective conflict resolution" and then claim i am not a violent person when i commit acts of violence. Just as you can't just say " its not supernatural." then hand wave away any natural explanation.

And how would you define a "natural explanation", hm? Would that simply be an explanation that -you- feel is plausible?

It is kinda obvious your just putting us on at this point, why can't you just admit that, go back to another account, and try again? The game is played out my friend.

Oh-HO! This is getting interesting... "Go back to another account"? Just who do you think I am? Don't tell me you're committing to making even more baseless assumptions xD

 

[Ichneumonwasp]

I said no such thing. Nor do I recall anyone else saying that.

Plus - it's not true. Millions of people can have auditory hallucinations, all of which can easily have mundane explanations. No matter how many people relate personal experiences, alot of them or just a few doesn't matter. Their personal experiences do not add up to evidence.

I think it might be better to stick with 'useful evidence' rather than 'evidence'. Personal experience are evidence; they just aren't necessarily useful for particular purposes.

 

[AkuManiMani]

I said no such thing. Nor do I recall anyone else saying that.

Plus - it's not true. Millions of people can have auditory hallucinations, all of which can easily have mundane explanations. No matter how many people relate personal experiences, alot of them or just a few doesn't matter. Their personal experiences do not add up to evidence.

You're not disputing my account just because it resembles an auditory hallucination...

ETA: G2G right now. Lets see how many of you are ready to stop chasing your own shadows and have an actual discussion by the time I get back

 

[tsig]

Do those plausibly explained behaviors include sentient "auditory hallucinations" and clairvoyance?

If not, no.

God, the devil and allah are all products of the human mind.

 

[sadhatter]

And how would you define a "natural explanation", hm? Would that simply be an explanation that -you- feel is plausible?



Oh-HO! This is getting interesting... "Go back to another account"? Just who do you think I am? Don't tell me you're committing to making even more baseless assumptions xD

Oh god, the definitions. JREF trollin 101.

It doesn't matter what i think a natural explanation is, because it varies case by case. In this case with what you have described the natural explanation is that of a neurological quirk or disease.

Again, you have given us a story. If you accept a story as evidence, that is great, shows you are gullible as all hell, but great. Unfortunately to expect everyone to be gullible enough to accept the word of any internet user, is simply silly.

Keep on trollin aku, your not wasting my time, your filling it.

 

[sadhatter]

You're not disputing my account just because it resembles an auditory hallucination...

ETA: G2G right now. Lets see how many of you are ready to stop chasing your own shadows and have an actual discussion by the time I get back

Not trollin at all.

Sharpen up the act, doing the ol " i am leaving, you guys better smarten up." is the trollin equivalent of slipping on a bannana peel. May have been original the first 1000 times it was used, but not anymore.

 

[PixyMisa]

I said no such thing. Nor do I recall anyone else saying that.

That would probably because nobody said anything like that, nor anything that could be rationally interpreted as such.

Plus - it's not true. Millions of people can have auditory hallucinations, all of which can easily have mundane explanations.

Indeed, millions of people do have auditory hallucinations at some time in their lives. They are quite common.

 

[carlitos]

First, the designation of "hallucination" is an added interpretation attributed to my account of hearing a 'voice'; I made no claim of having any hallucination, special or otherwise. Second, what makes the experience so 'special' is that I was in a lucid state at the time, the voice was intelligibly conversant, gave force feedback, and provided information concerning another individual that I'd previously not been privy to.

You heard a voice, and there was no one there. Auditory hallucination happens all the time. Can you please explain how you ruled out this mundane explanation?

As to what the relevance of the hypothetical, I was simply drawing a parallel between the reactions of the 19^th century scientists in the scenario to what [at the time] would be a seemingly supernatural claim, and the similar responses of some of the posters here to an account of an anomalous experience.

Kind of lame, but again, thanks for answering.

Similarly, how did you rule out that this wasn't a dream?

I felt what could best be described as a 'spark'-like sensation at the crown of my head [accompanied by that high pitched ringing sound like the one you often hear when a monitor or some other electrical device is turned on] and I felt a presence come over me (ya, I know it sounds sappy, but thats the best way I can describe it).

Almost every time I go to sleep, I experience a dream-like state, and see things that aren't there. I often get that "jerk" which wakes me from half-sleep, and I tend to see faces and hear voices. Things like Jagermeister add to this. As far as I know, this is normal, not paranormal.

How did you rule out normal neurological processes like dreaming for your experience? What do you think it was instead?

 

[tsig]

And yet we're still missing the elephant in the living room: Why is there such an impetus to discount, recast, and reinterpret someone's first hand account of their own experiences?

So because we don't accept your story we're bad people? Do you always believe what others tell you

 

[PixyMisa]

Almost every time I go to sleep, I experience a dream-like state, and see things that aren't there. I often get that "jerk" which wakes me from half-sleep

That myoclonic jerk. We hates it!

Mmmm nice and comfy, drifting off nowzzzOIK!

 

[Filippo Lippi]

I used to hear music every night before I fell to sleep. New music, mostly in a sixties soul stylee, but occasionally other genres.

Went away when I started taking new pills for my migraines, but that was a coincidence.

Wasn't it?

 

[PixyMisa]

Maybe.

Was the music any good? I frequently dream music, but on the one occasion when I actually woke up and was able to jot some of it down, it turned out to be pretty insipid.

 

[AkuManiMani]

God, the devil and allah are all products of the human mind.

Your point being...?

 

[AkuManiMani]

First, the designation of "hallucination" is an added interpretation attributed to my account of hearing a 'voice'; I made no claim of having any hallucination, special or otherwise. Second, what makes the experience so 'special' is that I was in a lucid state at the time, the voice was intelligibly conversant, gave force feedback, and provided information concerning another individual that I'd previously not been privy to.

You heard a voice, and there was no one there. Auditory hallucination happens all the time. Can you please explain how you ruled out this mundane explanation?

Who said anything about ruling out the mundane explanations? It doesn't really matter what one calls the phenomena, be it hallucination, seizure, spirit, "mental construct", or magical fairy, its still an anomalous occurrence due to the features of the experience I've just described for the umpteenth time. Designating the experience as having "a mundane explanation" does not explain or account for the anomalous features, sorry.

As to what the relevance of the hypothetical, I was simply drawing a parallel between the reactions of the 19^th century scientists in the scenario to what [at the time] would be a seemingly supernatural claim, and the similar responses of some of the posters here to an account of an anomalous experience.

Kind of lame, but again, thanks for answering.

Similarly, how did you rule out that this wasn't a dream?

And how do -you- rule out that you're not dreaming right now? Just WTF do you take me for?

I felt what could best be described as a 'spark'-like sensation at the crown of my head [accompanied by that high pitched ringing sound like the one you often hear when a monitor or some other electrical device is turned on] and I felt a presence come over me (ya, I know it sounds sappy, but thats the best way I can describe it).

Almost every time I go to sleep, I experience a dream-like state, and see things that aren't there. I often get that "jerk" which wakes me from half-sleep, and I tend to see faces and hear voices. Things like Jagermeister add to this. As far as I know, this is normal, not paranormal.

How did you rule out normal neurological processes like dreaming for your experience? What do you think it was instead?

Are you seriously trying to convince me that I cannot tell the difference between being awake and asleep? Alright lets assume that I'm a stupid rube that can't distinguish dreaming from waking; the "dream" still provided information concerning another individual that I was not privy to before having the dream. Is that "mundane" enough for your liking or do we have to tweak the account a little more?

 

[AkuManiMani]

Not trollin at all.

I'm just giving enough rope for certain presumptuous ass-hats to hang themselves with. Those who are actually looking to have a real discussion with me will find it. Those out to "stomp trolls" and prop up their bruised egos will get the run around they're looking for.

 

[carlitos]

Are you seriously trying to convince me that I cannot tell the difference between being awake and asleep?

Since I cannot always tell when I am asleep or awake, I certainly don't believe that you can tell with 100% certainty, no. If you are unaware of things like meditation or hypnagogia, I'm not sure what to say. Personally, I think that "near sleep" experiences are pretty cool. Sometimes I have some really trippy ones.

link

Science has recently demonstrated that the apparently obvious difference between sleep and wakefulness is far more fuzzy and ill-defined than we ever thought. It is possible to be partly asleep and partly awake in any one of a number of 'near sleep experiences'. It is even possible that parts of our brains may be asleep while others are awake. It is now thought likely that only when 'most' of our brain is asleep do we actually become unconscious. It is likely that we regularly shuffle between different states ranging from fully alert to deep sleep throughout the day and night. Strange experiences are reported by people in intermediate states between sleep and wakefulness which may explain many paranormal reports.

​

Alright lets assume that I'm a stupid rube that can't distinguish dreaming from reality; the "dream" still provided information concerning another individual that I was not privy to before having the dream. Is that "mundane" enough for your liking or do we have to tweak the account a little more?

6 billion people have maybe 60 billion dreams a night, and one of them turns out to be true. That makes sense to me. Seems that you have an argument from incredulity, and haven't considered the law of large numbers.

How many of your dreams were just dreams? How many of your awake daydreams were just that? Have you considered all the times that you dreamt something that didn't turn out to be true? What made those dreams not "anomalous occurrences" while you focus on this one dream?

How have you ruled out the plasticity of memory making this one thing you seem intent on focusing on appear more and more real over the years?

You should record exactly what the dream was, forget about it, and then try to re-remember a year from now. You will most likely "remember" a new detail about it.

Anyway, did you have a hypothesis to explain this, or is it just anomalous? I can't tell, based on your responses.

ETA -

And how do -you- rule out that you're not dreaming right now? Just WTF do you take me for?
?

A human being, like the rest of us.

 

[AkuManiMani]

Maybe.

Was the music any good? I frequently dream music, but on the one occasion when I actually woke up and was able to jot some of it down, it turned out to be pretty insipid.

I was surprised that you actually had the guts to even mention your own hallucinatory episodes. I was beginning to think you were breaking your cowardly streak with regard to reporting your own experiences [e.g. what are you feeling right now?] but now you're just dodging queries as to the contents of your hallucinations. If you're embarrassed by them or do not feel [theres that word again...] comfortable sharing them just say so. Otherwise, I'll continue asking.

 

[AkuManiMani]

Are you seriously trying to convince me that I cannot tell the difference between being awake and asleep?

Since I cannot always tell when I am asleep or awake, I certainly don't believe that you can tell with 100% certainty, no. If you are unaware of things like meditation or hypnagogia, I'm not sure what to say. Personally, I think that "near sleep" experiences are pretty cool. Sometimes I have some really trippy ones.

I've had plenty of lucid dreams and I've had a handful of hypnagogic episodes in my life. Even during those episodes I was able to distinguish that the experience was a dream. Any non-lucid dreams I have had were easily identifiable as such upon waking, anyway. I can assure you that I was not asleep, nor was I falling asleep at the time the episode in question occurred. I was wide awake and completely lucid. I guess one could argue the notion that the dreaming and waking states are the same in some sense, but that does little in the way of explaining the experience I had or accounting for it's anomalous features.

Alright lets assume that I'm a stupid rube that can't distinguish dreaming from reality; the "dream" still provided information concerning another individual that I was not privy to before having the dream. Is that "mundane" enough for your liking or do we have to tweak the account a little more?

Anyway, did you have a hypothesis to explain this, or is it just anomalous? I can't tell, based on your responses.

I've considered a few hypotheses concerning the nature of my experience but, due to insufficient data on my end its not really possible to formulate a full on theory to account for all the features. What I am certain of is that the "voice" had enough intelligence to carry on a lucid conversation, even displaying a certain degree of wit. When it spoke it was not in the form of a thought but manifested as an audible sensation that seemed to be originating from "in my head" and not from the room itself. Juding from it's ability to also physically manipulate my body [the force feedback I described earlier] my guess is that whatever the entity was it could directly access and manipulate my nervous system. The ability of the voice to provide specific personal information regarding another individual also lends credence to it not being an artifact of my own mind, but originating externally.

My guess is that whatever the "voice" was it's probably the same class of phenomena that shamans in indigenous cultures refer to when they speak of conversing with "spirits" [though in numerous accounts I've read, these contacts also occur in OBE states and the "voices" may also present themselves in visual form as well]. You may read the more detailed account I gave earlier to Zanders if you wish to help brainstorm over it

 

[Elizabeth I]

Since I cannot always tell when I am asleep or awake, I certainly don't believe that you can tell with 100% certainty, no. If you are unaware of things like meditation or hypnagogia, I'm not sure what to say. Personally, I think that "near sleep" experiences are pretty cool. Sometimes I have some really trippy ones.

link

Science has recently demonstrated that the apparently obvious difference between sleep and wakefulness is far more fuzzy and ill-defined than we ever thought. It is possible to be partly asleep and partly awake in any one of a number of 'near sleep experiences'. It is even possible that parts of our brains may be asleep while others are awake. It is now thought likely that only when 'most' of our brain is asleep do we actually become unconscious. It is likely that we regularly shuffle between different states ranging from fully alert to deep sleep throughout the day and night. Strange experiences are reported by people in intermediate states between sleep and wakefulness which may explain many paranormal reports.
​

I once had a temporary job that involved transcribing endless tapes. It was incredibly boring and I developed a strange habit of falling mostly asleep while my fingers continued to type. When I would "wake up" and check my transcription against the tape, it was pretty accurate. I would have expected (a) to simply stop typing or (b) if I didn't stop typing, to type gibberish. The whole experience was sort of bizarre.

So I agree that "asleep" and "awake" are points along a continuum.