Continuation Part 2 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[christianahannah]

There are many more. I have not included the samples taken from Meredith's body in the summary. Nor have I included many of the samples from Raffaele's apt., samples from Raffaele's car, samples from Guede's apt., samples from the downstairs apt., samples from the kitchen of the cottage, and a few others. These results were not relevant to the prosecution's case or to the defense rebuttals.

Earlier in this discussion, however, I noted that a number of samples revealed unidentified DNA. The police should have gotten reference DNA samples from everyone who lived at or frequented the cottage, just as they did collect reference fingerprints, so they could be sure the unidentified DNA belonged to those people and not another suspect. This basic oversight shows they were only interested in evidence that would support their claims with regard to Amanda and Raffaele. The unidentified donors are as follows:

Male #1, rep. 11, (non-blood) tissue paper found in front of lower apartment entrance

Female #1, rep. 17, (blood) tissue paper found on path from street to cottage

Male #3, rep. 18, (blood) tissue paper found on street

Female #2, rep. 19, (blood) tissue paper found on street; rep. 20, (blood) tissue paper found on street

Male #4, rep. 32, (non-blood) boxer shorts from Sollecito's apt.

Male #5, rep. 47, (non-blood) stained white rag from Sollecito's apt.

Male #6, rep. 101, (non-blood), stain revealed with luminol on kitchen mat from Sollecito's apt.

Male #7, rep. 142, saliva, cigarette butt from kitchen ashtray at cottage; rep. 143, saliva, cigarette butt from kitchen ashtray at cottage; rep. 144, saliva, cigarette butt from kitchen ashtray at cottage

Male #8, rep. 227, (non-blood) tee shirt taken from Sollecito

Notice there is no Male #2. I don't know if they accidentally skipped a number, or if there were other tests besides the ones for which I have the results. In general, the numbering of samples and organizing of results is erratic and inconsistent, and it spans a number of documents that came to me as e-fax TIF files, very poor quality.

Charlie do you have the dates that the unidentified DNA samples were collected and did the testing of these samples result in nearly whole profiles or partial profiles?

 

[Chris_Halkides]

secondary transfer

Hi Mary, I'm well informed on the case. For the past 2 years I've been gathering informations about the events that took place back in 2007 and also about the trial, but to date I have found no credible explanation on how did Raffaele's DNA got on the bra clasp of Meredith Kercher, apart from contamination, of course.

snook1,

Besides contamination, there is secondary/tertiary transfer of DNA before the clasp was taken into custody. One possible source of DNA would be the towels that one expects Raffaele would have used to wash his hands prior to cooking, as Katy_did pointed out some time ago. Also, evidence tampering is distinct from contamination, though not easy to demonstrate.

 

[christianahannah]

It's interesting that all of those DNA samples came from fabric or fibrous materials. Yet, the only DNA on the bra was from the metal clasp? Is there a source on that? That seems highly contrived.

A source from a Nigerian tabloid is OK. (just kidding - other Mignini sources are OK too)

Of six samples taken from the bra (minus the clasp) Rudy's Y-chromosome was on trace B, but not on the other samples (I think trace B was the strap, but am not sure, perhaps Charlie will know).

 

[Chris_Halkides]

ABC news

Has anyone come across any interviews with jurors? I've only found one, and it was just a snippet. The lady claimed that none of the jurors were able to sleep the night before the verdict. Anyway, it would be interesting to get some insight into their reasoning (or lack thereof.)

nopoirot,

On page 319, Murder in Italy, Dempsey cites an ABC news interview with a juror. "It is hard to envision Knox doing this. But it is possible. We can all drink too much then get into a car and drive."

Many of us have done as this juror says, but the vast majority of us who did, never murdered anybody.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

people with glass windows should throw stones and see what happens

I've seen plenty of commentary about a faked break in, and nothing that convincingly refutes it.

lionking,

Mr. Sollecito's expert witness testified to the effect that he was able to recreate the rock's being thrown from the outside. If that experiment matched the glass pattern inside Filomena's room, then how could a staged break-in also match the glass pattern? Massei's theory is that the window was opened and a rock used to smash it. In his theory, the window is in a different place, and the trajectory of the rock would also be different. Maybe you can explain it to me in a way that makes sense.

 

[Justinian2]

I've seen plenty of commentary about a faked break in, and nothing that convincingly refutes it.

Why do the pro-guilters think that if one person commits a murder that it is MORE likely that three people were involved? Do the math. What is more likely?

Perché il pro-guilters pensare che se una persona commette un omicidio che è più probabile che tre persone sono state coinvolte? Fare la matematica. Che cosa è più probabile?

Is it a real break-in or a staged break-in that looks real? Do the math. What is more likely?

Si tratta di un vero break-in o un break-in scena che sembra reale? Fare la matematica. Che cosa è più probabile?

 

[colonelhall]

What part did you miss when it was stated that there is a need to re examine the DNA evidence to remove the reasonable doubt?

No part! I just never, in my wildest dreams, would have thought that anybody would interpret it that way.

 

[moodstream]

Your post is a prime example of why teachers don't let their pupils grade their own papers.

Bye!

Sometimes I think we are all climbing a mountain. The final truth of the matter is the summit, and it is way above, lost in a cloud. What we each think of as the truth is no more than the route we set out for our own ascent up the mountainside. Although we may begin at distant points, on the far side of the mountain from each other, as we exchange views and share opinions, we ascend towards the real objective truth, occasionally having to alter our routes when the facts do not support us, but the closer we get to the summit, the closer our positions and understanding of the case become, and the better we are able to understand each other.

Simply sitting in the lodge , boasting about how easy it is to make the ascent, and what is wrong with another’s climb, without actually climbing the mountain oneself, has very little value to those of us who honestly wish to get to the summit, to find the truth of the matter.

 

[nopoirot]

nopoirot,

On page 319, Murder in Italy, Dempsey cites an ABC news interview with a juror. "It is hard to envision Knox doing this. But it is possible. We can all drink too much then get into a car and drive."

Many of us have done as this juror says, but the vast majority of us who did, never murdered anybody.

Yes, that's the same juror I came across. Seems to me important to know if the first jury got whipped into a lynch-mob mentality by the prosecutor, or if their deliberations were more, uhm, deliberate. It would be particularly interesting to know how they assessed the conflicting claims of Amanda and her interrogators, as well as the forensic evidence they thought most probative.

 

[snook1]

And sexually assaults her. [How does this not fit the lone wolf senario?]
And kills her with two knives. [How is this not Mignini's imagination?]
And has a crap without flushing. [How does this not fit the lone wolf senario?]
And fakes a break in. [How is this not Mignini's imagination?]
And causes multiple bruises and cuts. [How does this not fit the lone wolf senario?]
And......And.....[How is this not Mignini's imagination?]

The man whose bloody palm print was in the murder room climbed through the second floor window (something too difficult for Mignini to ever do), got interrupted taking a crap, killed Meredith with one knife, deposited his semen in the murder room and fled the country. It doesn't take a knowledge of rocket science to understand all of Guede's activities.

Guede's motives were sex and money. Amanda had no motive - her sex drive was completely fufilled by a new relationship with a 20 year old man (something else Mignini can't understand).

If you want to think like Magnini, go for it.

Such a great post.

 

[snook1]

snook1,

Besides contamination, there is secondary/tertiary transfer of DNA before the clasp was taken into custody. One possible source of DNA would be the towels that one expects Raffaele would have used to wash his hands prior to cooking, as Katy_did pointed out some time ago. Also, evidence tampering is distinct from contamination, though not easy to demonstrate.

Thanks. That's actually quite possible.

 

[Kestrel]

Kev: "The totality of the evidence clearly inclines a rational observer to the belief that the murder was committed by a single attacker with a single knife. I don't think there is anything more to be said."

Apart from the fact that the prosecution put forward a convincing argument that this was not the case. This was accepted unanimously by the jury. How many "rational observers" was that?

I guess that your definition of "rational observers" is those people who support your theories and speculations.

When we look at the long list of false convictions here in the US, we notice the most if not all of them were also the result of a unanimous jury verdict. The dirty secret is that all too often our juries accept false testimony, logical fallacies, and bogus science when it's presented in a courtroom. This case has shown that Italian juries have the same problem.

 

[snook1]

I just noticed that Injustice In Perugia posted large parts of Amanda's testimony. Anyone know, if there is a possible translation coming up? Bruce?

http://www.youtube.com/user/InjusticeinPerugia

I know there are transcripts available, but that's not the same I guess.

 

[Dan O.]

Of six samples taken from the bra (minus the clasp) Rudy's Y-chromosome was on trace B, but not on the other samples (I think trace B was the strap, but am not sure, perhaps Charlie will know).

This was my understanding too. Rudy's DNA was found on the strap where a lone attacker would grab it using one free hand to try and force the clasp to release. After failing to undo the clasp by force, he would almost instinctively reach into his pocked for his knife, flick it open, slide the blade under the strap and cut the belligerent clasp off.

 

[simper]

In order to be convicted in an Italian court does the Jury have to be convinced beyond reasonable doubt? Lets say 97 or 98% certain. If I were deciding on the balance of probability I dont know which side of the coin I would fall. However I would only convict Knox on the basis of beyond reasonable doubt if I knew there were no negative consequences for me if I was wrong. I dont see how any objective observer can be 95%+ convinced that Knox is guilty.

 

[nopoirot]

That is my expectation. I think the whole thing is a farce. But maybe I'm wrong. We'll see.

Is there any chance the new court will revisit defense arguments about the admissibility of Amanda's statements, or severing the action for "calumnia"?

 

[Poppy1016]

Wow. Female and male DNA on tissue paper outside the cottage. Is this just coincidence or was this possiby planted also. Sure makes me wonder.

 

[el buscador]

I think Hellmann is just another functionary, a bureaucrat who is pretending to be neutral while keeping the interests of his colleagues and the reputation of the system foremost in mind.

These "independent" experts will reject the knife in order to look like they aren't lackeys of the system, but they are lackeys of the system or they wouldn't have gotten this job. I would expect a report with all kinds of hedging and verbal artistry that can serve as a smoke screen for confirming the guilty verdicts.

But, support is growing in strength and may well upset all this cynical maneuvering. I wonder what Perugia's fattest prosecutor thought when he woke up and found out George Clooney had been cast in the role of his nemesis.

George Clooney owns a villa in Laglio, Italy. I wonder what, if anything, mignini might try if the film is as unflattering to him as the book is.

 

[snook1]

George Clooney owns a villa in Laglio, Italy. I wonder what, if anything, mignini might try if the film is as unflattering to him as the novel is.

George Clooney should be careful. We all know Mignini can railroad anyone that he finds promiscuous.

 

[el buscador]

George Clooney should be careful. We all know Mignini can railroad anyone that he finds promiscuous.

Actually, I'd love to see mignini try to bring some ridiculous trumped up charges against George Clooney. Wonder how the rest of the world would react to that.