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Merged Electric Sun Theory (Split from: CME's, active regions and high energy flares)

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Can you tell me what math model you are using here for this calculation? I mean is it the electrostatic model or the low-pressure gas discharge physics one or something else?

Seems like the electrostatic one to me and from what I understand of EU/PC theory, that isn’t appropriate.

The assertion that electrostatics is inappropriate (and it is only an assertion) is not correct. Electrostatics most definitely apply to the proposed model. Now, you might claim that there are other factors involved beyond electrostatics, but they cannot rescue the model. Where does the energy come from, if not from the electric fields? It cannot be from magnetic fields - we can detect those easily, and they are not big enough. So we are stuck with impossibly large electric fields which would make the charge on the sun explode at relativistic speeds. Electrodynamics cannot rescue the model from that conclusion, which is why no such calculations have ever been done by EU proponents.


That quote is laughable. The electric sun cannot explain the most basic, most important feature of the sun. Never mind whether it can edge out the standard model at the finish line, it falls down at the starting gate. And it is NOT based on standard, well-established physics, it consistently ignores standard, well-established physics.

No solar model should be taken with the least bit of seriousness if it cannot handle the total solar power output. Not only can the electric sun "model" not predict or describe the power output with any degree of precision, it produces impossibilities even at power outputs orders of magnitude smaller than observed. It is a complete and utter failure. Why is anyone attracted to a model which cannot handle the most important feature of the system under discussion?
 
Electric Sun: Questions for Haig I

Sure, they provided objective, quantitative and independently verifiable answers. However, i'm also sure EU/PC theorists would also provide the same objective, quantitative and independently verifiable answers to support their views IF they had the public funding mainstream has, or even a fraction of it.
Why are you so sure? The EU/PC enthusiasts have in fact been working on their "science" for decades. They find the time & money to write books and host conferences. It took me less than an hour to search through the archives and find the references that demonstrate valid theory & observation to support my point of view. So how much public funding does that require? I don't believe you or them. They don't cite objective, quantitative and verifiable answers to support their claims because they know they there are none to be found. So they sling together obfuscating arguments in the hop that some poor layman, like you for instance, will fall for it "hook, line and sinker", which appears to be the case here for you.

In my view, the hostility shown to the “electromagnetic” heretic’s of the 1950's by the mainstream has turned out to be counterproductive as mainstream entered the space age only to find confirmation after confirmation of the heretic’s insights.
You keep calling yourself a "layman", so how and/or why do you think this is the case? And what "confirmations" are you talking about, anyway? There are no confirmations and there never were. You make claims like this, you cut & paste and post links and you are always wrong. Does it not bother you to be always wrong?

I asked first DRD and the answers given, so far, by mainstream just pass the problem upstream, in my view.
Why is that your view?
 
[...]

Sure, they provided objective, quantitative and independently verifiable answers. However, i'm also sure EU/PC theorists would also provide the same objective, quantitative and independently verifiable answers to support their views IF they had the public funding mainstream has, or even a fraction of it.
Here's a strange and interesting thing: this sort of 'poor us, we don't get funding' claim (moan?) has been made often, in many internet discussion forums, by EU/PC proponents.

No, that's not the strange and interesting part; this is: when asked just what, exactly, they'd spend any funding on, the answers - such as there are any - are, odd (let's leave it at that).

You see Haig, not only will you find no proposals for observations and experiments that haven't yet been made or done, but even simple things in theory development are not mentioned! This last is especially odd since folk like Tim Thompson, tusenfem, Ziggurat, and Tom Bridgman can come up with simple, order-of-magnitude models (of things like an Electric Sun) in an hour or so (half a day, tops). So what "support" do the likes of Thornhill, Scott, and Talbott need? Be paid for five years to get a PhD in plasma physics?

Maybe you're different; maybe you can sketch a few experiments that really should be done, or observations that are just crying out to be made?

I'll go one better: suppose you were granted a whole YEAR of dedicated time on any, or any combo, of the world's leading astronomical facilities - the Hubble, Chandra, XMM-Newton, the VLTs, Planck, Hershel, GALEX, Spitzer, SPT, Kecks, Fermi, VLA, Arecibo, ACTA, ... - what would you observe (and why)?

In my view, the hostility shown to the “electromagnetic” heretic’s of the 1950's by the mainstream has turned out to be counterproductive as mainstream entered the space age only to find confirmation after confirmation of the heretic’s insights.
Name one (objective, quantitative and independently verifiable) such!
 
Sorry, so many questions not enough time. The heretics in the 1950's were the inspiration for Thunderbolts and a number of the other EU/PC proponents, as I understand it, check their backgrounds.

Some of the answers to your questions are here:

Solar Plasma Circuits
In the electric model of stars, the Sun is a positively charged electrode in a circuit, while the negatively charged electrode is located far beyond the planetary orbits. The "virtual cathode" is known as the heliopause.

As the electric model relates, sunspots, flares, coronal heating, and all other solar activity is most likely a result of fluctuations in electricity from our galaxy. Birkeland current filaments slowly rotate past the Solar System, supplying more or less power to the electric circuit powering the Sun.

The electric current flowing out of the Sun is balanced by the current flowing into it, so perhaps the changes in temperature indicate the magnetic field polarity and the strength of the electric field. If the Sun is connected to the rest of the galaxy by Birkeland current "transmission lines," then its puzzling characteristics with respect to conventional interpretations are most likely demonstrating the fluctuations in current arriving from the Milky Way's electric generator.

The Sun's inverted temperature gradient can be explained by the Electric Star theory because it conforms to an electric discharge within the z-pinch zone of intergalactic Birkeland current filaments. The Sun is a gigantic electric arc, not a ball of hot hydrogen gas. Therefore, the energy of the Sun is focused from outside and not expelled from inside.
http://www.thunderbolts.info/tpod/2010/arch10/100921circuits.htm
 
Some more answers here, IMHO

Solar Magnetic Polarity Reversal
In his [Hannes Alfvén’s] model, electric current passes through both poles of the star. It then flows in long tubes emanating from the star. A secondary leakage current that flows on or just below the Sun’s surface, back toward the equator from each of the poles, can explain another one of the “mysteries” the Sun poses for solar astrophysicists.

It is highly likely that such a current system has already been discovered. Stanford University recently announced, “Scientists using the joint European Space Agency (ESA)/NASA Solar and Heliospheric Observatory (SOHO) spacecraft have discovered ‘jet streams’ or ‘rivers’ of hot, electrically charged gas (plasma) flowing beneath the surface of the Sun. They also found features similar to ‘trade winds’ that transport gas beneath the Sun’s fiery surface.” Rivers of plasma are electric currents. Currents cause magnetic fields.
http://www.thunderbolts.info/tpod/2009/arch09/090909polarity.htm
 
Sorry, so many questions not enough time. The heretics in the 1950's were the inspiration for Thunderbolts and a number of the other EU/PC proponents, as I understand it, check their backgrounds.

Some of the answers to your questions are here:

Solar Plasma Circuits

http://www.thunderbolts.info/tpod/2010/arch10/100921circuits.htm

Basically, your frakkin' with us, Haig. You have no real interest in actually discussing anything with us. "too many questions, too little time, let me just find the time to copy and paste this drivel from thunderdolts, that, although I don't understand it, must be the truth, otherwise it would not be on the internet." Your just as much a disappointment as all other EU/ES/EC proponents, with just as little knowledge of actual plasma(astro)physics, left behind in the 50s of the previous century.
 
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Basically, your frakkin' with us, Haig. You have no real interest in actually discussing anything with us. "too many questions, too little time, let me just find the time to copy and paste this drivel from thunderdolts, that, although I don't understand it, must be the truth, otherwise it would not be on the internet." Your just as much a disappointment as all other EU/ES/EC proponents, with just as little knowledge of actual plasma(astro)physics, left behind in the 50s of the previous century.
Your entitled to your view but if I had more time to "discuss" things you would just say I was parroting someone, right? Actually, I find Thunderbolts quite understandable. Well, as much as a numpty layman can understand that is! :)

I really don't have a lot of time so Donald Scott can do my discussing for me: -
The chaos of Brownian motion produces the high temperature we see in the solar corona.
Of all the ideas offered up as being an explanation of the extreme temperature (more than 2 million Kelvin) measured in the lower corona of our Sun, the simplest is that electrically accelerated high velocity positive ions are colliding with relatively static ions and neutral atoms in that location.

The electrical properties of the Photosphere/Chromosphere/Lower corona region of the Sun’s visible boundary is dominated by a double layer (DL) of electrical charge.
http://www.thunderbolts.info/tpod/2010/arch10/100519corona.htm
 
Your entitled to your view but if I had more time to "discuss" things you would just say I was parroting someone, right? Actually, I find Thunderbolts quite understandable. Well, as much as a numpty layman can understand that is!

No, I would expect someone to actually try to learn a little bit of the basics of physics. Does it not bother you that there is nothing qualitative on the thunderdolts site? (apparently not) Let's take your example below:

I really don't have a lot of time so Donald Scott can do my discussing for me: -
The chaos of Brownian motion produces the high temperature we see in the solar corona.

Can this actually happen? First of all there are no numbers on the axes in the figure, so how strong is this electric field? Why not put numbers there? Never mind, we will just take Juergens' numbers, which says that the potential drop is of the order of 109 volts. So we have a population of 1 GeV ions running out of the Sun (which means there is also a population of 1 GeV electrons running into the Sun, but that as an aside). The density of the corona is of the order 10-12 kg/m3, (which is about 12 orders of magnitude smaller than our air at sea level) which is in number density 10-12/1.67 10-27 = 6 1014 m-3.

Now, collision need to heat this up. Ion-ion collision rate is given by:

[latex]\nu_i = 4.8 10^{-8} Z^4 \mu^{-1/2} n_i ln\Lambda T^{-3/2}[/latex] per second for a thermal plasma. A full description of this all is given here.. However, we need to know what a fast 1 GeV ion is doing with a thermal plasma of temperature T (note that a 1 GeV ion corresponds to a temperature of 1013 Kelvin) so that should be enough to heat the corona to 15 million degrees, but .......

1 GeV ions correspond to a velocity close to c (as the rest-energy of a proton is ~1 GeV). This means that these ions will have an enormous mean free path in the plasma, which is related to the collision frequency (see above) and the plasma density. You may want to do the calculation (Z=1, mu=1, lnLambda = 10):

[latex]\lambda_i \approx \frac{c}{\nu_i} \approx T^{3/2}[/latex]

This in not exact, this is just an approximation to keep things simple, but all the physics is in there. Now, when the corona has a temperature of 15 million degrees then the mean free path for one of those ions leaving the double layer will be 6 1010 m which corresponds to about 100 solar radii or up to the orbit of Mercury!!!. So basically they will fly through the corona without even having one collision!

I am gladly proven wrong my Mr. Scott, naturally, there are also no numbers given for the amount of ions that are accelerated in the double layer.

Ah, once more ... do I even have to say it again?

(this took me all of 20 minutes of my lunchtime!)

And just for fun, it should be noted that these accelerated ions would emit so called "linear acceleration radiation" in the double layer, basically my PhD thesis was on this kind of radiation from double layers.
 
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Your entitled to your view but if I had more time to "discuss" things you would just say I was parroting someone, right? Actually, I find Thunderbolts quite understandable. Well, as much as a numpty layman can understand that is! :)

[...]
Let's see if I understand you, Haig.

You are one of those who does not accept that physics is quantitative, right?
DeiRenDopa said:
In quite a few threads here in this Science (Maths, Medicine & Technology) section of JREF, the discussion (if it can be called that) has essentially ground to a halt.

Why?

Because the two sides (if they can be called that) are no longer engaged in an ongoing, meaningful exchange.

And why is that?

I think it's because one side does not accept - explicitly or, more often, implicitly - that physics is fundamentally quantitative [...].

Having seen this kind of thing often, I've wondered what's going on; is it, perhaps, that some JREF members feel that physics is not quantitative? Or that though it is, it shouldn't be (to be science)?

Hence this thread.

It's primarily aimed at those who seem so reluctant to engage in a discussion in which numbers, values, equations, calculations, estimates, orders-of-magnitude, backs-of-the-envelope, etc is central (you know who you are), but of course anyone can join in.

And by 'physics' I include related fields, such as cosmology, astrophysics, astronomy, and so on.
(I added some bold, and did not quote some irrelevant parts)
 
Electric Sun: Questions for Haig II

... but if I had more time to "discuss" things you would just say I was parroting someone, right?
Maybe, maybe not. It's usually pretty easy to spot the people who are just parroting somebody else, but since you are already doing exactly that, what have you got to lose? It's one thing to have your own ideas, regardless of how right or wrong they may be, but quite another to avoid all thought of your own and just cut & paste whatever somebody else says.

I have asked before, without success, but will try again. How do you know, based on your own personal knowledge of science, that the things you cut & paste, have any valid content at all? And if you have no personal knowledge as a basis for judgement, then what criteria do you use?

Actually, I find Thunderbolts quite understandable. Well, as much as a numpty layman can understand that is! :)
The fact that you can understand the English does not make the science right. If, as you say, you are just a "numpty layman", then how do you know that the science is right?

I really don't have a lot of time so Donald Scott can do my discussing for me: -
Don Scott is wrong, for reasons I already mentioned above. But since you are only a numpty layman, how would you know, one way or the other?
 
An Electric Sun Q&A

One of the annoying habits we see from some posters is an obvious assumption that any mention of the word "electric", or any variation thereof, is a strike against the mainstream theories, and a move towards some vague electric star hypothesis. But of course this is not true. The mainstream does not ignore electric field and electric currents. Rather, the mainstream simply tries to put electric fields and electric currents into their proper place in the overall physics of a star.

Since the arguments are spread over numerous threads and thousands of posted messages, I thought I would summarize my understanding of the situation all in one place, in a simple Q&A format.

Question: Do stars carry a net electric charge in standard theory?
Answer: Yes.
This has been pointed out before, but a lot is forgotten when arguments are spread over many long threads. In fact, we can go back to the dawn of modern stellar theory, and the book Internal Constitution of the Stars by Sir Arthur Eddington, published in 1926 and reprinted in 1930 (still in print via Dover Publications). Specifically, see page 272, section 191, "Electric Charge in the Interior". By combining the Boltzmann distribution for the energies of electrons & protons in a stellar interior with gravity, Eddington determined a charge deficiency of roughly 1 electron per million tons of matter. Applied to the Sun he determined that this would generate an electric field of about 6.3x10-8 Volts/cm and a total potential at the surface of about 4370 Volts. As Eddington points out, "Our provisional assumption that there is no appreciable separation of charges is thus verified." And a little later, "The electric force, which varies in proportion to gravity in the interior, is absurdly weak, but it stops any diffusion of electrons outwards."

So let's put this concept to the (observational) test, shall we?

http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2000ApJ...532..616W

Ooops? You're OOMS off Tim. Now what?

Are *ANY* of you folks going to discuss Alfven's use of "circuits" in these instances?
 
Let's see if I understand you, Haig.

You are one of those who does not accept that physics is quantitative, right?

http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2000ApJ...532..616W

Care to address the quantitative aspects of this paper for me DRD? You're so quick to claim to want figures, and so quick to ignore them when they are handed to you on a silver platter. What's up with that behavior?

I'm still waiting for *ANY* of you to even QUALITATIVELY address Alfven's use of "circuits" and "exploding double layers" in flare events.
 
http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2000ApJ...532..616W

Care to address the quantitative aspects of this paper for me DRD? You're so quick to claim to want figures, and so quick to ignore them when they are handed to you on a silver platter. What's up with that behavior?

I'm still waiting for *ANY* of you to even QUALITATIVELY address Alfven's use of "circuits" and "exploding double layers" in flare events.

I have already done so somewhere here on the board.
However, anything that has to do with real physics and math gets ignored by the EU/ES/EC and iron sun proponents.
It is not my fault, MM, that you don't seem to understand the physcis posts I put up on the board, but please do not say that you are waiting for *ANY* to address Alfven or double layers or Birkeland for that (as you have not even written ONE word in the scientific discussion of Birkeland's papers).

Bye bye MM, sweet dreams.
 

Electric current neutralization by Wheatland (ApJ 532, 616-621, 2000).

From the abstract we learn the following:

Wheatland (abstract) said:
For each active region, the current over the positive polarity of the field, I+, is estimated, as well as the current over the negative polarity, I-, and the total current over both polarities, In no case is the total , Itot. In no case is the total current Itot significantly different from zero. The currents I+ and I- are found to be significantly different from zero (at the 3 σ level) in more than half of the active regions studied, implying that large-scale currents in active regions are typically unneutralized.

So what we learn here is that (using magnetograms) Wheatfield studies the currents derived from the magnetograms over active regions of negative and positive polarity separately, giving rise to the I- and I+. These two currents I- and I+ are not neutralized over that specific region of polarity (which should not be surprising, actually), however taking the whole active region together (i.e. summation over all polarity region) one gets a Itot, which is not found to be significantly different from zero.

Wheatfield (Introduction) said:
Modern vector magnetographs and Stokes polarimeters permit the determination of the vector magnetic field at the photosphere in active regions and hence allow estimates of the vertical electric current entering the corona at the photosphere. These measurements provide the most direct evidence available on electric currents in flare-producing regions.

This is the technique used to measure the currents. And the definition of “neutralized” is given a little further down:

Wheatfield (Introduction) said:
A neutralized current pattern is one for which there is no net current over one polarity of the magnetic field at the photosphere.

Now depending on what is looked at, one can find different results for the neutralization, like is discussed with two examples that give different results:

Wheatfield (Introduction) said:
Wilkinson, Emslie, & Gary (1992) studied a single active region (Active Region 2372, observed with the Marshall Space Flight Center vector magnetograph on 1980 April 6) and, using the integral form of Ampere’s law (rather than the more usual differential form of the law), they found evidence for a neutralized current pattern in a large leader spot within the region. They concluded that either the current associated with the spot was neutralized or the observed fields are potential, with the apparent current being an artifact produced by Faraday rotation.

Leka et al. (1996) examined current patterns associated with emerging flux in a single active region (AR 7260, observed by the Haleakala Stokes polarimeter and the Imaging Vector Magnetograph at Mees Observatory during 1992 August) and found that new flux appeared contemporaneously with unneutralized currents. They concluded that the new magnetic flux that emerged carried currents that were generated below the photosphere, before the flux emerged.

These conflicting results based on individual active regions suggest the need for a statistical, quantitative study of whether currents in active regions are typically neutralized.

So then there is a discussion of the technique, which I will not go into, anyone can read it as the paper is freely available from ADS and ApJ. So let’s move to the discussion. The first thing mentioned is:
Wheatfield (Discussion) said:
These [stations, 1005] were used to determine the total current over the positive and negative polarities of the vertical magnetic field within the field of view of the magnetogram, I+ and I-,respectively, as well as the total current over both polarities, Itot. Clear evidence was found for unneutralized current patterns in the majority of the active regions examined - e.g.,I+ is different from zero by more than 3 σ in 13 cases. In all 21 cases, Itot is consistent with being zero. In at least three cases, I` is consistent with being zero, indicating that in some active regions there are neutralized current patterns. or that the fields in these regions are potential and that the inferred currents are the products of noise.

Then Wheatfield goes into a discussion of how this statistical sample relates to what other people have proposed about the currents coming out of active regions, as there are opposing views. Melrose, e.g. states that A clear example is provided by a coronal magnetic loop subject to a twisting flow at one footpoint. The twist generates a current system that flows along the axis and back along the surface of the loop in the corona. The current follows field lines in the corona but closes across field lines at the footpoint of the loop where the stress is applied. The observed current pattern at the photosphere at each footpoint is a patch of current of one sign at the center of the footpoint, surrounded by a concentric region of current of opposite sign. The pattern is neutralized.

However, Melrose argued that Melrose (1991, 1995) argued that measurements of the vector magnetic Ðeld do not support neutralized current patterns and hence disfavor the in situ storage models. His assessment of the data was based on qualitative descriptions of observed current systems and on published diagrams of currents derived from magnetograms.

And so we come to the conclusions by Wheatfield:

Wheatfield (Discussion) said:
The results presented here are consistent with the qualitative statements of Melrose (1991, 1995) and with the quantitative Ðndings of Leka et al. (1996), but are contrary to the results presented by Wilkinson et al. (1992). Neutralized current patterns appear in some active regions (see § 3), and it is likely that Wilkinson et al. found such an exception to the general rule of unneutralized current patterns.

So, this has an interesting result, namely that:

Wheatfield (Discussion) said:
The observation that current patterns in active regions are typically unneutralized has important consequences for flare physics and more generally for our understanding of magnetic fields on the Sun, as outlined by Melrose (1991, 1995) and Leka et al. (1996). First, it indicates that twisting and shearing of the footpoints of coronal magnetic fields are not responsible for the large-scale currents that are observed and, hence, that the in situ storage model for flares is invalid. Magnetic flux emerges at the photosphere with large-scale electric currents already flowing in it and with free energy already present.

Now, this IS interesting, because footpoint shear is considered to be an important part of driving currents in magnetic loops. However, it should be understood too, that this study deals with the total current above a positive (I+) or negative (I-) polarization active region. It is proposed that the dynamo action in the Sun should be moved to the base of the convection zone in order to be able to get these large scale currents. This also has an effect on solar flares as noted by Melrose:

Wheatfield (Discussion) said:
As argued by Melrose (1991), the long inductive time associated with such an extended current system precludes change on the short timescale of a flare, and so current will be conserved during a flare, an important consideration that is missing from most flare models. Melrose (1997) has presented a model for flaring due to reconnection between current carrying loops subject to conservation of both magnetic flux and total current.

This whole discussion of the Wheatfield paper is because of the answer that Tim Thompson gave on the question “Are stars charged” and his answer was “Yes” and indeed there was a paper in 2001 by Neslusan that discusses this (the link was nicely taken out by MM).

MM told TT that: Ooops? You're OOMS off Tim. Now what?, but does MM actually know what he is talking about? Apparently not, because TT was discussion the charged Sun and the voltage that could be created by that, whereas Wheatfield goes into a totally different calculation. Let’s take a look:


Wheatfield (Discussion) said:
The size of the observed currents also raises interesting questions concerning the appearance of large voltages if the current changes or if the current path changes.

Ah, this is just Maxwell theory, changes in currents or current directions will lead to voltages. This has nothing to do with the voltages that are related to a charged Sun.

Then Wheatfield goes into a mathematical discussion, so I guess MM will have skipped that, but here it is anyway:

Wheatfield (Discussion) said:
Assuming the change occurs on a timescale τ, there is an associated electromotive force (EMF) V ~L I/τ, where L is the inductance of the circuit. The inductance may be estimated by L ~ μ0 ~ 100 H for a circuit of length l ~ 108 m. If the current flowing through the corona (I ~ 1012 A) or the inductance changes substantially on the timescale for flux emergence (τ ~ 105 s), enormous voltages (V ~ 109 V) are implied.

So there can be enormous voltages created by changes in the current loops on the Sun, which is no surprise. However, it is a surprise that MM wants to say that these voltages (that have nothing to do with net charge) are related to a charged Sun.

I thank MM, though, for pointing out this interesting paper, however, I would appreciate when MM would actually put some effort in discussing the papers that he links to and show the (non)relevance of said papers.
 
So let's put this concept to the (observational) test, shall we?

http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2000ApJ...532..616W

Ooops? You're OOMS off Tim. Now what?
Does that paper talk about the net electric charge of the sun? It's way above my pay grade, but it seems to me it's more about your famous "current flows" in active regions. It even says as much in the title, after all. If so, maybe you should read what Tim wrote about that:

Tim Thompson said:
Question: Does standard theory recognize electric current flow in the Sun?
Answer: Yes.
Despite claims to the contrary, mainstream solar & stellar physics certainly does not ignore the presence of electrical current systems in the sun & stars. In the book Solar Astrophysics by Peter Foukal (Wiley-VCH, 2004; 2nd, revised edition) there are several descriptions of electric currents and electrostatic fields in the sun. Electric currents are described in the general photosphere & corona, and in connection with active regions (i.e., sunspots), as well as the solar/stellar interior. And of course there are numerous research papers in the journals that reflect the present state of the science (e.g., Grigoryev & Ermakova, 2002 and Abramenko, 2008 for the general photosphere; Spangler, 2007 in the corona; Feldman, 2002 for coronal & flare activity; Ji, et al., 2003 and Deng, et al., 2009 for flares and active regions). The study of electric currents flowing in the sun, by itself, is not a point that distinguishes between the standard theory of stars and the alternative electric Sun/star hypothesis.

ETA: Oops! Should've just lurked and let tusenfem do his thing!
 
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Does that paper talk about the net electric charge of the sun? It's way above my pay grade, but it seems to me it's more about your famous "current flows" in active regions. It even says as much in the title, after all. If so, maybe you should read what Tim wrote about that:



ETA: Oops! Should've just lurked and let tusenfem do his thing!

Well, at least you noticed the problem with the linked paper. That puts you miles above the imaginary iron surface of the Sun on which MM is walking.
 
Well, at least you noticed the problem with the linked paper. That puts you miles above the imaginary iron surface of the Sun on which MM is walking.
When the bar is set so low, sometimes even Arts grads like me can step over it. :D
 
I have already done so somewhere here on the board.

Um, where? In relationship to flares?

However, anything that has to do with real physics and math gets ignored by the EU/ES/EC and iron sun proponents.

IMO it's *YOUR* side that keeps ignoring the maths they don't care for. You guys keep claiming that maths are king, yet your side outright ignores the maths related to PC/EU theory entirely. "Circuits"? "What circuits?" That's pretty much par for the course around here, especially since *YOU* are the only actual PC critic that has read a significant portion of Alfven's work on the topic.

It is not my fault, MM, that you don't seem to understand the physcis posts I put up on the board, but please do not say that you are waiting for *ANY* to address Alfven or double layers

Um, in relationship to flares and CME's, that is *EXACTLY* what I'm waiting for.

or Birkeland for that (as you have not even written ONE word in the scientific discussion of Birkeland's papers).

Right. ;) Denial seems to be the single biggest "tool" in the PC opponent's arsenal. :)

Bye bye MM, sweet dreams.

I'm still waiting for you or anyone else to address Alfven's "circuit" and "explosive double layers" in relationship to flares. When I actually see that happen, we'll know we've left denialville behind. Thus far any "maths" you folks do not care for, you either fail to read or fail to comment on at all.
 
I thank MM, though, for pointing out this interesting paper, however, I would appreciate when MM would actually put some effort in discussing the papers that he links to and show the (non)relevance of said papers.

I would appreciate your side putting in a little effort, noticing that your voltages are off by OOMS at the surface and noticing a "discharge" when you see one. Apparently you believe that if you measure the voltages at both ends of an electrical discharge in the Earth's atmosphere that they are 'neutralized' (apparently even during the discharge process itself) at all times, and you're outright ignoring the fact that your voltages are not even in the ballpark! This is like a trip to the twighlight zone IMO. Whatever you don't like, you simply ignore or sweep under the carpet. It doesn't matter if maths are included, observations are included, etc. The only thing that seems to matter to you is that it doesn't jive with your belief systems, therefore it has to be outright ignored. How do you explain those voltages and amps T? Notice how the *CIRCUIT* closes *UNDER* the photosphere just as Alfven PREDICTED?
 
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