Moderated WTC 1 features list, initiation model / WTC 2 features list, collapse model

About the only thing interesting that's come from these blithering idiots is their confirmation of bazant's assessment that columns would have broken due to horizontal reaction shearing at about 2 degrees of tilt.

NIST referred to bazant's paper on this in their report, and so their engineers were undoubtedly aware of that assessment.

So the only thing left to debate is whether or not the dynamic duo have interpreted the wording in the report correctly or not when they state that it clearly says it tilted 8 degrees before any vertical movement begins.

We all know what the answer to that is.

I pay attention to the real engineers and scientists here.Help me out and tell me why the tilt has any bearing upon the insane accusation that the the evil government blew up the Twin Towers.
 
I pay attention to the real engineers and scientists here.Help me out and tell me why the tilt has any bearing upon the insane accusation that the the evil government blew up the Twin Towers.

I couldn't tell you why.

Only the 2 dunderheads could.

What I pointed out is that their "data" supports Bazant. NIST is aware of Bazant's paper, and in fact referenced it in their report.

Therefore their argument is over NIST's wording about 8 degrees and nothing more.
 
I'm not quite sure what word to use to describe folk that equate the presentation of data indicating the initiation process becoming traceable ~9.5s in advance of release...as a claim that da gubmint blew up da towers :confused:

I'd have to conclude such folk really have no ability to actually comprehend any of the detail, making their frequently rude, pointless and inept posts simply off-topic spam and noise.

There's some folk really need to either take the time to understand the subject in hand, or stop posting.
 
I'd have to conclude such folk really have no ability to actually comprehend any of the detail, making their frequently rude, pointless and inept posts simply off-topic spam and noise.
I certainly agree with you that the vast majority of this thread has been pointless and inept.

I suspect, however, that some of the posts you classify as rude contain speculation about possible connections between this thread and the subject of this subforum: 9/11 Conspiracy Theories. Those speculative posts may be attempting to compensate for the OP's failure to state such a connection and for the posts that suggest no such connection will or should be made.

There's some folk really need to either take the time to understand the subject in hand, or stop posting.
If you could tell me what you believe to be the subject in hand, and explain its connection to 9/11 conspiracy theories, I'd really appreciate it.
 
If you could tell me what you believe to be the subject in hand, and explain its connection to 9/11 conspiracy theories, I'd really appreciate it.

Amen.

If there's no 9/11 CT connection it belongs in "Science". I don't mind asking the mods to move it, or maybe the o/p author should?
 
I'm not quite sure what word to use to describe folk that equate the presentation of data indicating the initiation process becoming traceable ~9.5s in advance of release...as a claim that da gubmint blew up da towers :confused:

I'd have to conclude such folk really have no ability to actually comprehend any of the detail, making their frequently rude, pointless and inept posts simply off-topic spam and noise.

There's some folk really need to either take the time to understand the subject in hand, or stop posting.

We get it. You are now embarassed to learn that you have substantiated Bazant's assessment about how the columns would have sheared off.

We also know that this validates his views. This also demonstrates, once again for all to see, that a structural engineering professor of his stature is capable of doing this work, and is by far a better way of doing an assessment, and that counting pixels can only validate engineering, and never lead it.

It also shows how much time you have wasted here. You must be quite sad.
 
And, whilst any number of us can see what possibilities may lie ahead if the finding is (say) 'core led initiation' rather than 'perimeter led', at this stage there is no acknowledged objective beyond 'determine the mechanism of collapse initiation.'

But they can't make any "finding" here....neither they nor any of us are really qualified or experienced enough to make an really informed statement one way or the other.

They HAVE to write a paper and get it peer reviewed and accepted by a journal in Structural engineering field to be able to achieve anything.
Without doing that they might as well be arguing about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.
 
Where in this thread has anyone made that accusation?

Nowhere,I just have no idea what the whole thing is about.This is the 911 conspiracy forum.What exactly are the two non-engineers talking about?Tilt,no tilt,what is the difference?
 
Last edited:
Nowhere,I just have no idea what the whole thing is about.This is the 911 conspiracy forum.What exactly are the two non-engineers talking about?Tilt,no tilt,what is the difference?

It seems to be an argument from incredulity. They measure tilt vs time and say it looks very fast. You then pose an unanswered question such as, "how can the collapse progress from south to north in 0.5 seconds with only 1° tilt?".

It's bacically time consuming JAQing with graphs.
 
Amen.

If there's no 9/11 CT connection it belongs in "Science". I don't mind asking the mods to move it, or maybe the o/p author should?

Nowhere,I just have no idea what the whole thing is about.This is the 911 conspiracy forum...
I tend to agree. There is no link to 'conspiracy' other than the coincidence that the scientific deliberations are about WTC buildings and 9/11 collapses.

Now, if the objective was explicitly stated.....the thread could possibly be a legitimate topic for this 9/11 Conspiracy Theories sub forum. :rolleyes:

;)
 
It seems to be an argument from incredulity. They measure tilt vs time and say it looks very fast. You then pose an unanswered question such as, "how can the collapse progress from south to north in 0.5 seconds with only 1° tilt?".

It's bacically time consuming JAQing with graphs.

And that would imply a controlled demolition,is that what they are saying?Why all the silly graphs then?
 
And that would imply a controlled demolition,is that what they are saying?Why all the silly graphs then?

It's just typical twoofer twaddle.

They actually believe that by deliberately misinterpreting phrasing in the NIST report (IOW, just run-of-the-mill-twoofer behavior), they can show that the report was poorly done, and therefore we need a new investigation.

The whole tilt thing is just one of the things they are pushing. As MT has stated, his whole purpose here is to polish up his presentation. Notice, it's NOT intended to polish up any technical paper,not even to just publish on some conspiraloon site. It's a presentation. IOW, the only audience it is intended for is other conspiraloons.

Absolutely nothing new here.
 
I rewrote the whole deformation and roof-line concavity arguments to remove any reference to the word "linear" and present the info a bit more clearly.

The arguments for concave deformation of the roof-line are now in two parts:

One part uses only drop curves and visual evidence to show early concave roof-line deformation:
http://www.sharpprintinginc.com/911...op=view_page&PAGE_id=176&MMN_position=364:364


A new section was written to show early deformation using vectors. The geometry of drop as projected onto the Sauret viewpoint is in the new section.
This section replaces my former geometric arguments. I hope the vector projection approach is easier to understand.

An introduction to measuring deformity and viewpoint projection using vectors can be found here:
http://www.sharpprintinginc.com/911...op=view_page&PAGE_id=187&MMN_position=373:373

"C" and "lamda" values need to be rechecked, but everything else should be correct.

The concept of vector projection onto the Sauret viewpoint is introduced in a simple 2-D version above. The vector approach will be expanded into a general 3-D formulation to be applied to other viewpoints. It is based on introducing a building coordinate system and a coordinate system for each viewpoint, called the viewer coordinate system.

I am writing the proof in 2 parts because the drop curve argument is sufficient in itself to prove antenna sagging and concave roof-line deformation. No vector reconstruction (3-D reconstruction) is required for any argument. Drop curves only measure horizontal and vertical object movement as the object projects onto a flattened 2-D surface from any viewpoint. Any camera shot from any viewpoint is just a flattened 2-D projection of 3-D behavior. All the information we require for the proof is contained within these flat projections, and there is no need to reconstruct 3-D movement from the projections.

So why the vector approach? First, because it is a better approach to explain how we are perceive drops from the Sauret viewpoint. Second, because I cannot resist the math challenges involved in recreating a range of 3-D movement from the flat 2-D projections of each viewpoint. Who knows what new information may result from expanding the vector approach to multiple viewpoints?
 
Last edited:
I rewrote the whole deformation and roof-line concavity arguments to remove any reference to the word "linear" and present the info a bit more clearly.

The arguments for concave deformation of the roof-line are now in two parts:

One part uses only drop curves and visual evidence to show early concave roof-line deformation:
http://www.sharpprintinginc.com/911...op=view_page&PAGE_id=176&MMN_position=364:364


A new section was written to show early deformation using vectors. The geometry of drop as projected onto the Sauret viewpoint is in the new section.
This section replaces my former geometric arguments. I hope the vector projection approach is easier to understand.

An introduction to measuring deformity and viewpoint projection using vectors can be found here:
http://www.sharpprintinginc.com/911...op=view_page&PAGE_id=187&MMN_position=373:373

"C" and "lamda" values need to be rechecked, but everything else should be correct.

The concept of vector projection onto the Sauret viewpoint is introduced in a simple 2-D version above. The vector approach will be expanded into a general 3-D formulation to be applied to other viewpoints. It is based on introducing a building coordinate system and a coordinate system for each viewpoint, called the viewer coordinate system.

I am writing the proof in 2 parts because the drop curve argument is sufficient in itself to prove antenna sagging and concave roof-line deformation. No vector reconstruction (3-D reconstruction) is required for any argument. Drop curves only measure horizontal and vertical object movement as the object projects onto a flattened 2-D surface from any viewpoint. Any camera shot from any viewpoint is just a flattened 2-D projection of 3-D behavior. All the information we require for the proof is contained within these flat projections, and there is no need to reconstruct 3-D movement from the projections.

So why the vector approach? First, because it is a better approach to explain how we are perceive drops from the Sauret viewpoint. Second, because I cannot resist the math challenges involved in recreating a range of 3-D movement from the flat 2-D projections of each viewpoint. Who knows what new information may result from expanding the vector approach to multiple viewpoints?

Forget the gobbledygook. What do you think brought down the Twin Towers? What are you doing here?
 
Despite the new stuff you still have the calmesant graph showing a clear rigid body rotation with the note that ,
"If the blue and pink curves show rigid motion they have to slope together, curve together, move together, start to fall together.... basically do everything together.

Our two plots obviously, obviously do not move together. They are doing two totally different things. The only common feature between the two plots is they both eventually fall."

Here's that graph with a few different points plotted on from your calculated relative heights graph.

roofbal1antbal4comparison.png


Looks pretty close to me given a 250mm=1pixel image.
 
technobabble vs solid geometry, part 5

I rewrote the whole deformation and roof-line concavity arguments to remove any reference to the word "linear" and present the info a bit more clearly.

An introduction to measuring deformity and viewpoint projection using vectors can be found here:
http://www.sharpprintinginc.com/911...op=view_page&PAGE_id=187&MMN_position=373:373
That page contains the following false claim, which appears to be central to Major_Tom's "argument":
Major_Tom said:
The constraint relations for a rigid body can be rewritten as

d(a-b)/df = c*d(b-r)/df where f is frame and c is a constant. This means the slopes of the blue and yellow lines must remain proportional to one another
There are actually three errors in that claim. Video frames are discrete, so taking derivatives with respect to the "frame" f makes no sense. Major_Tom must be using frames as a proxy for time. More fundamentally, he appears to be making a claim about how the coordinates of points on a rigid body transform as that body is rotated. If so, then he should have taken his derivatives with respect to the tilt angle θ instead of taking derivatives with respect to frames (as proxy for time).

Both of those errors are relatively minor, because it is not altogether unreasonable to assume that the tilt angle is an approximately linear function of time, which means that proportionality of the derivatives with respect to time would follow from proportionality of the derivatives with respect to the tilt angle. As shown below, however, neither proportionality holds for rigid bodies.

I will also consider the possibility that Major_Tom meant only to claim that, if the upper section were rigid, the differences would remain proportional under rotations, and that the derivatives were just more technobabble. It's hard to tell, so I'll prove that both of the plausible interpretations of his claim are false.

For both refutations, it is enough to consider the actual vertical drops instead of the "drops" measured twelve degrees off plumb. (In terms that Major_Tom might understand, the actual drops are those that would be seen by viewer at infinity, level with the roof. The error can be demonstrated using viewers at other distances and angles, but the calculations would be more complicated.)

Proof that the differences aren't always proportional:

As has been shown previously, the true vertical coordinates of the points a, b, and r on an assumed-rigid upper section, considered as functions of tilt angle θ, are

[latex]
\begin{align*}
a(\theta) &= s_2 \sin \theta + a_0 \cos \theta \\
b(\theta) &= s_2 \sin \theta + b_0 \cos \theta \\
r(\theta) &= r_0 \cos \theta
\end{align*}
[/latex]

If Major_Tom's claim were true (when interpreted as being about the differences), then there would be some constant c such that

[latex]
\begin{align*}
a(\theta) - b(\theta) &= c (b(\theta) - r(\theta)) \\
(a_0 - b_0) \cos \theta &= c (s_2 \sin \theta + (b_0 - r_0) \cos \theta) \\
&= c s_2 \sin \theta + c (b_0 - r_0) \cos \theta \\
(a_0 - b_0 - c b_0 + c r_0) \cos \theta &= c s_2 \sin \theta \\
\frac{(a_0 - b_0 - c b_0 + c r_0)}{c s_2} &= \frac{\sin \theta}{\cos \theta}
\end{align*}
[/latex]

where each line of that derivation follows immediately from the preceding line. The left hand side of the last equation is a constant, but the right hand side is not. Hence the equation cannot hold independent of θ, hence the claimed constant of proportionality c cannot exist. That ends the first proof.

Proof that the derivatives aren't always proportional:

If Major_Tom's claim were true (when interpreted as being about derivatives with respect to θ), then there would be some constant c such that

[latex]
\begin{align*}
\frac{d (a(\theta) - b(\theta))}{d \theta} &= c \frac{d (b(\theta) - r(\theta))}{d \theta} \\
\frac{d ((a_0 - b_0) \cos \theta)}{d \theta} &= c \frac{d (s_2 \sin \theta + (b_0 - r_0) \cos \theta)}{d \theta} \\
(b_0 - a_0) \sin \theta &= c s_2 \cos \theta + c (r_0 - b_0) \sin \theta \\
(b_0 - a_0 + c (b_0 - r_0)) \sin \theta &= c s_2 \cos \theta \\
\frac{\sin \theta}{\cos \theta} &= \frac{c s_2}{b_0 - a_0 + c (b_0 - r_0)}
\end{align*}
[/latex]

where each line of that derivation follows immediately from the preceding line. The right hand side of the last equation is a constant, but the left hand side is not. Hence the equation cannot hold independent of θ, hence the claimed constant of proportionality c cannot exist. That ends the second proof.
 
Last edited:
I only glanced over the most recent exchange anbd don't claim to get the fine details and trace every variable and every algebra step.

But, if I may venture a guess...

It's still this thing about points along the antenna not being on the same plane as points on the north face, right? :p
 
I only glanced over the most recent exchange anbd don't claim to get the fine details and trace every variable and every algebra step.

But, if I may venture a guess...

It's still this thing about points along the antenna not being on the same plane as points on the north face, right? :p

So? What would that prove? Take pity on a confused layman,the two non-engineers will not explain their motives.
 

Back
Top Bottom