Evidence for why we know the New Testament writers told the truth.

[Think_Tank]

Ever hear of "old earth creationism"?

Sadly, yes. It's only mildly less bollocks than YEC.

The the Hebrew word "yom' does not necessarily mean a 24 hr. day.

From the article "Old Earth Creation Science
Word Study: Yom
By Greg Neyman

"Moses Other Uses of Yom

Moses, the author of the first five books of the Bible, and of Psalm 90, used Yom in many different ways.

Interesting. Let's play...

1. Genesis 4:3 "And after a lifetime it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the Lord."
2. Genesis 43:9 "...then let me bear the blame for a few months."
3. Genesis 44:32 "...then I shall bear the blame to my father for forty days and nights."
4. Deuteronomy 4:40 "...that thou mayest prolong thy days upon the earth, which the Lord thy God giveth the, for a week or so, give or take."
5. Deuteronomy 10:10, "Now I stayed on the mountain , as I did the first hour and a half."
6. Deuteronomy 18:5 "...to stand to minister in the name of the Lord, him and his sons for as long as they can be bothered."
7. Deuteronomy 19:9 "...to love the Lord thy God, and to walk on Wednesday afternoon in His ways..."

As you can see, Moses used the word Yom to represent whatever we damn well feel like."

And in case you accuse me of straying from the point, I'm only filling time while you actually answer the original topic. Regardless of how long a Yom is, a billion years is a billion years and the author(s) of Genesis still got the order (and almost everything else) wrong.

I'm guessing I'll have to wait a few Yoms for that answer...

 

[Agatha]

Well the famous Jewish/Roman historian Josephus certainly believed he existed and Jesus certainly believed he existed. And the author who wrote the well known book "The 100 - the hundred most influential people in History" listed Moses as the the 10th most important influential person ever to live (ahead of Washington and Jefferson). And on a personal note, if the historical person Jesus believes he existed (according to several verses in the bible), then I believe he existed.

Interesting. Last time you brought up this book as an authority you stated that Moses was in sixteenth place (Linkydink), but if the book in question is the one by Michael Hart, Moses is actually in fifteenth. Your cavalier attitude to factchecking really does not fill me with confidence that anything you can say can be taken with more than a bushel of salt.

 

[X]

Ever hear of "old earth creationism"?

The the Hebrew word "yom' does not necessarily mean a 24 hr. day.

From the article "Old Earth Creation Science
Word Study: Yom
By Greg Neyman

"Moses Other Uses of Yom

Moses, the author of the first five books of the Bible, and of Psalm 90, used Yom in many different ways.

1. Genesis 4:3 "And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the Lord." In this instance, Yom refers to a growing season, probably several months.
2. Genesis 43:9 "...then let me bear the blame for ever." Here, Moses uses Yom to represent eternity
3. Genesis 44:32 "...then I shall bear the blame to my father for ever." Again, Moses uses Yom to represent eternity
4. Deuteronomy 4:40 "...that thou mayest prolong thy days upon the earth, which the Lord thy God giveth the, for ever." Here Yom represents a physical lifetime
5. Deuteronomy 10:10, "Now I stayed on the mountain forty days and nights, as I did the first time,..." Here, Yom is a "time" equal to forty days.
6. Deuteronomy 18:5 "...to stand to minister in the name of the Lord, him and his sons for ever." Again, Yom is translated as eternity
7. Deuteronomy 19:9 "...to love the Lord thy God, and to walk ever in His ways..." Here, Yom represents a lifetime. As long as we live we are to walk in his ways

As you can see, Moses used the word Yom to represent 12-hours, 24 hours, the creative week, forty days, several months, a lifetime, and eternity."

http://www.answersincreation.org/word_study_yom.htm

And once again, we see DOC's usual habit of posting the very first link from a Google search that supports his presuppositions.
(seriously, Google 'Yom meaning').

And as usual, this results in a poor understanding of the subject on DOC's part.

In fact, much like the English word "day", "yom" can have many meanings. On that note, DOC is quite correct.

What DOC (or rather, DOC's latest pathetically inept source of apologetics) fails to note is that the interpretation of yom is contextual.

And in the creation account (accounts, actually, because no matter how fervently DOC wishes otherwise, there are two and they are not the same) the word yom means a literal 24 hour day. This we know because the word is preceded by a number. The first day, the second day, etc. And because of the descriptions of morning and evening.

clicky for more



As a side note, before DOC accuses me of finding the first skeptical site: There are several websites from the skeptical perspective that declare yom to mean 24 hour day, period. Evilbible.com is one such, and pops up very early in a Google search (phrase 'does yom refer to 24 hour day'). I passed on those because they, like your creationist website, give in to bias. The website I linked to is very definitely a Christian website, and thus cannot be accused of being biased against the Bible. It could be accused of a preference to 6-day creationism, but most websites discussing the meaning of yom are.
I know there's people on this board who speak Hebrew. I'd love to get their input. Actually, I'm pretty sure the meaning of yom has been hashed over on this forum before...

In the end, DOC, to put it simply, is wrong once again.

 

[Mojo]

Care also to tell who is first?

That's right.

 

[Sun Countess]

Well the famous Jewish/Roman historian Josephus certainly believed he existed and Jesus certainly believed he existed. And the author who wrote the well known book "The 100 - the hundred most influential people in History" listed Moses as the the 10th most important influential person ever to live (ahead of Washington and Jefferson). And on a personal note, if the historical person Jesus believes he existed (according to several verses in the bible), then I believe he existed.

That's your whole problem. You believe in some mythical Jesus character, and whether he ever really lived or not, he didn't have a stenographer sidekick with various pieces of parchment in his sleeves and pockets, eager to record every word that Jesus uttered. Yet you cling to everything that others said Jesus said for dear life. Would a court of law accept your hearsay evidence?

Basically, your whole belief system can be summed up: "If Paul says Jesus says it was true, then I believe it's true." Nothing anybody says can change your mind, and that's fine. But why do you need to change other people's mind by bringing them into your little fantasy world?

As you can see, Moses used the word Yom to represent 12-hours, 24 hours, the creative week, forty days, several months, a lifetime, and eternity."

What's the point of using a word if it can mean absolutely anything? It doesn't help your arguments at all.


eta: I wanted to give a big BRAVO shout-out to nvidiot for his inspired conversation between Moses and his wife. (Even though DOC will probably use this as evidence that Moses existed.)

 

[Garrette]

Actually I didn't say this.

Yes, you did.

 

[Garrette]

As an aside: That list of 100 most influential people is interesting, not always positively so. Not sure I agree with their #1, though I would definitely put him near the top. I'm glad to see they but some Chinese on there.

But I am disappointed to see that one of my favorites has been ignored, as he almost always is: Alfred the Great. Without him, England would not have become England, and all of (at least Western) history would be far different.

 

[kmortis]

As an aside: That list of 100 most influential people is interesting, not always positively so. Not sure I agree with their #1, though I would definitely put him near the top. I'm glad to see they but some Chinese on there.

But I am disappointed to see that one of my favorites has been ignored, as he almost always is: Alfred the Great. Without him, England would not have become England, and all of (at least Western) history would be far different.

Cause the general quality level of food and dental hygiene would increase ten fold?

 

[Gandalfs Beard]

The author who wrote The Two Towers lists Gandalf as the third most influential person ever to live (ahead of Aragorn and Saruman).

Explain why your author should be regarded as more believable than mine.

Indeed, as his Beard I can attest to the fact Gandalf is the second most influential person of all time. Of course Merlin is #1, Obi Wan Kenobi is #3, and Dumbledore is #4.

GB

 

[kmortis]

So, is this guy #5?

 

[Aepervius]

Well the famous Jewish/Roman historian Josephus certainly believed he existed and Jesus certainly believed he existed. And the author who wrote the well known book "The 100 - the hundred most influential people in History" listed Moses as the the 10th most important influential person ever to live (ahead of Washington and Jefferson). And on a personal note, if the historical person Jesus believes he existed (according to several verses in the bible), then I believe he existed.

I would have replied but our favorit pharaoh already shown you are in error. See Josephus also almost certainly believed in a lot of things. But there is a difference between belief, and having evidence for it, or even ovserving directly. Josephus DID NOT observe directly Moses. But he certainly heard of the OT/Torah or whatever it was called at the time. That Josephus believed Moses existed is NOT an historical evidence of Moses existing.

 

[DOC]

Yes, you did.

No, I didn't and it's your job to prove it since you made the claim.

 

[Gandalfs Beard]

So, is this guy #5?
[qimg]http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a147/kmortis/dungeonmaster.jpg[/qimg]

Probably #15. No Beard see? All the top 10 Wizards have beards.

GB

 

[dafydd]

Ever hear of "old earth creationism"?

The the Hebrew word "yom' does not necessarily mean a 24 hr. day.

From the article "Old Earth Creation Science
Word Study: Yom
By Greg Neyman

"Moses Other Uses of Yom

Moses, the author of the first five books of the Bible, and of Psalm 90, used Yom in many different ways.

1. Genesis 4:3 "And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the Lord." In this instance, Yom refers to a growing season, probably several months.
2. Genesis 43:9 "...then let me bear the blame for ever." Here, Moses uses Yom to represent eternity
3. Genesis 44:32 "...then I shall bear the blame to my father for ever." Again, Moses uses Yom to represent eternity
4. Deuteronomy 4:40 "...that thou mayest prolong thy days upon the earth, which the Lord thy God giveth the, for ever." Here Yom represents a physical lifetime
5. Deuteronomy 10:10, "Now I stayed on the mountain forty days and nights, as I did the first time,..." Here, Yom is a "time" equal to forty days.
6. Deuteronomy 18:5 "...to stand to minister in the name of the Lord, him and his sons for ever." Again, Yom is translated as eternity
7. Deuteronomy 19:9 "...to love the Lord thy God, and to walk ever in His ways..." Here, Yom represents a lifetime. As long as we live we are to walk in his ways

As you can see, Moses used the word Yom to represent 12-hours, 24 hours, the creative week, forty days, several months, a lifetime, and eternity."

http://www.answersincreation.org/word_study_yom.htm

Are your goalposts rocket propelled?

 

[dafydd]

No, I didn't and it's your job to prove it since you made the claim.

Yes you did.It was in your usual garbled logic,so you probably didn't notice it.

 

[DOC]

I would have replied but our favorit pharaoh already shown you are in error. See Josephus also almost certainly believed in a lot of things. But there is a difference between belief, and having evidence for it, or even ovserving directly. Josephus DID NOT observe directly Moses. But he certainly heard of the OT/Torah or whatever it was called at the time. That Josephus believed Moses existed is NOT an historical evidence of Moses existing.

Josephus not only believed it, he claimed it was history and wrote about Moses leading an army in Egypt (which was not in the Bible). Also for the record Josephus was married in Egypt.

 

[DOC]

Yes you did.It was in your usual garbled logic,so you probably didn't notice it.

That's not an explanation, he should either apologize or retract the statement.

 

[John Jones]

No, I didn't and it's your job to prove it since you made the claim.

It's your job to provide Evidence for Why We Know the New Testament Writers Told The Truth.

You better get back to your task, or else.

 

[Garrette]

No, I didn't and it's your job to prove it since you made the claim.

Odd that you demand proof when you consistently refuse to provide it yourself, but here you go:

One possible reason for the summarizing and some of the difficulty is that these chapters might have been written at different times on different pieces of parchment. It is unlikely the writer wrote all 60 pages of Genesis in one sitting or on one solid sheet of parchment or whatever he wrote on in that era of no paper. He possibly wrote it all in 20 sittings on many different pieces of parchment. And remember Moses was wondering in the desert for many years. He could have wrote one chapter on one piece of parchment, put it away for safekeeping, and then started writing again on another piece of parchment. This could be a reason for some of the difficulties. You just don't keep parchment in your back pocket for a few days while your traveling and then start on the same parchment.

The highlighted areas are your admission of biblical mistakes. Of course, as I said you would do you are denying that this is what you said, and as daffyd pointed out it is in your garbled version of logic, but there it is.

You can rationalize all you like, DOC, or claim that by "difficulties" you meant "difficulties in later readers understanding," but the indisputable fact is that any difficulties in a perfect text mean it isn't perfect, hence it has mistakes.

The bible is mistake-laden; you have denied it and been shown to be wrong; now you have admitted it but continue to lie about that.

I suspect you realize it, but just in case: I read your posts now for the humor and for the shock value in learning how much you will twist to avoid admitting an error. There is nothing of value in your posts regarding truth, logic, or morality.

 

[Garrette]

That's not an explanation, he should either apologize or retract the statement.

Neither. I was right.