• Security incident: ISF was recently accessed by intruders. Please change your password, and change it anywhere else you used it. Read more

Evidence for why we know the New Testament writers told the truth.

Status
Not open for further replies.
So that's all you have to do on Randi now is to say you got a quote from Wiki and not put an article title or link?

I found the wikipedia link just by googling Matthew and Bible last night. Then I just decided to go to Bible Gateway and find the Chapter and Verse that YOU never bothered to cite.

So now you want to jump on someone's ass because they actually bothered to do their homework, made one little mistake, and then promptly admitted it???

You do know what the word hypocrisy means don't you DOC? Or haven't you got that far in your Logic 101 class yet?

And by the way, the Wikipedia article is correct, the vast majority of SCHOLARLY Christian Theologians don't think ANY of the Gospels are written by the alleged authors, Matthew being one of those alleged authors. Same goes for Luke, your favourite "Historian." :rolleyes:

GB
 
The highlighted words make clear that this is rumour not evidence. I understand there is no Aramaic version of Matthew.


That is the consensus of modern scholars (with few exceptions) to the best of my understanding, and leads to the question of how the tradition arose. See my previous post for one possibiity. I have not looked at the synoptic authorship debates in any detail academically for fifteen years and may be hoplelessly out of date, but I can hit my books if it's somehow relevant.

What is DOC actually arguing now? Anyoe give me a quick precis?

cj x
 
Actually Oral tradition evidence in that era of no paper and little literacy is not rumor, it was actually quite an important way of transferring historical information.

http://www.aish.com/jl/48943186.html

Again with the "Oral Tradition." Do you then accept the Hebrew Oral Tradition that Lilith was Adam's First Wife?

And regarding paper, perhaps you've heard about a little invention called PAPYRUS, invented by the Egyptians circa 3000 BC. And did you know that the Hebrews were so aware of Papyrus that they WROTE the TANAKH (OT to you) on PAPYRUS?

GB
 
That is the consensus of modern scholars (with few exceptions) to the best of my understanding, and leads to the question of how the tradition arose. See my previous post for one possibiity. I have not looked at the synoptic authorship debates in any detail academically for fifteen years and may be hoplelessly out of date, but I can hit my books if it's somehow relevant.

What is DOC actually arguing now? Anyoe give me a quick precis?

cj x
He is arguing that there is evidence Matthew wrote Matthew, he was a tax collector and he lived in Jerusalem.
 
DOC is unable to critically view his faith. He will never attempt to critizize his faith the way he critizize otehr faith. it was evidence in other thread, it is evidence in this one.

The best you can hope is convince lurker already on their wy to critical thinking to agnosticism.

After reading loftus all I can say is that those thread are mostly pointless. Fun. But pointless.
 
Matthew the Disciple? I just ask to be certain...

cj x

So says the Almighty DOC:

This is incorrect. There is historical evidence that Matthew was a tax collector. There is historical evidence that the apostle Matthew wrote the gospel Matthew, and thus obviously lived in Jerusalem during Christ's death. And read any summary of the NT and many should tell you that the theme of Matthew is Christ is the Jewish Messiah unlike say Luke that was written for the gentiles, or John which mostly stressed the deity of Christ.

You know...standard DOC Logic...the Bible is true because the Bible says it's true. :rolleyes:

GB
 
That he can't find any evidence that you're a Christian, apparently.


Really? Ah, us dodgy Anglicans don't count or something? :eek: or just because of my sceptical apprach to everything? i@ll have to go read this now!

EDIT: AH I see! I thought my signature was a giveaway actually! :)
cj x
 
Last edited:
You know, DOC has me thinking now. I was taught at school at a young age that the Gospel authors were given traditional names, but no one knew who thy were. I did a decade or so I guess studyng the Bib. Crit literature, and never saw any reason to question the assumption. After all, the traditions we do have seem to be relatively late (I was thinking Eusebius' Ecclesiastical History, not Eusebius Pamphilius who taught him) and contradict what we know from textual criticism.

However, there does seem to be an early tradition of Matthew as the author. Logically it would make sense for the Gospels to be written about the time that apostolic authority was becoming contested as the apsotles died, requiring a move from a living community of authority to textual one, in the absence of clear doctrinal or ecclesiastial structure.

I think we can see why Matthew was identified with the author -- from a character who crops up here --

Matthew 9:9 said:
And as Jesus passed by from thence, he saw a man, called Matthew, sitting at the place of toll: and he saith unto him, Follow me. And he arose, and followed him.

and

Matthew10:3 said:
Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican; James the son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus;

So there is our tax collector traditions root: Matthew the publican. No evidence, just a guess from the early church cos he is mentioned?

More puzzling is Papias' reference. We know Matthew was extant by c.100 through it's influence on the Didache - twenty years later though Papias refers to it as the Oracles of the Lord, sugesting a **sayings** source, not a Gospel? I wondered for a second if proto-Matthew existed as Q, but then by Papias' time it seems likely the Gospel was in its modern form. The alternative "authentic Matthew" Gospel of the Hebrews don't make much sense in light of Papias saying; and given that Matthew appears to have been widely circulated in the Early Church, Papias must have known of it?

I therefore wonder if an authentic to the apostle Matthew sayings source was combined with a redaction of Mark, or a similar account, to create the Gospel ascribed to him?

The reason I consider this possible is the strong tradition the original source was written in Hebrew. The Gospel wasn't, but an earlier sayings collection might well have been written by a publican in the service of the Tetrarch. As an educated chap he could well have written down sayings in Hebrew, which came to influence the Didache, and been incorporated in to the Greek Gospel text.

It's wild speculation and I would need to work hard to test the case, and I don't really have the time today. I will try and find time to review the scholarship on Matthew's Gospel later in the week. I have never consciously heard of a Proto-Matthew sayings source (as opposed to Q) being suggested, but it seems to make some sense of the evidence to me at least. Certainly Matthew's Gospel has both the most Jewish Christian and the most anti-Judaism elements in it; a synthesis of an earlier sayings source after a parting of the ways would explain that, but if it can be defended by textual critique I know not.

Egg & co about? They will know! I'm just thinking through the limited facts at my disposal.

cj x
 
Last edited:
He might have wrote his article when he was an atheist, before became a Christian.

And the authors of the new testament might have been telling the truth, but we have no evidence of that either.
 
To be fair, there has been some evidence presented. Granted, it wasn't presented by DOC (rather cj.23) and it was supporting very narrow points that I don't think are terribly contraversial. I wish cj'd come back, there were some very fruitful conversations going on.

The guy is on that many forums, plus he has his own blog and don't forget he is a christian with a christian bias.

What is your source he is a Christian?


I'm just curious, he said he was a Christian. I curious which post says that he is, that's all.

All of them.
..
 
I'm just curious, he said he was a Christian. I curious which post says that he is, that's all.

In case previous post are not clear. Read his signature he says he is a christian anglican.

I'm an Anglican Christian, so I declare my prejudice here. Please take it in to account when reading my posts.
 
Last edited:
Thanks Lothian - I just read it, and its nice to be missed, but I don't really think despite kmortis kind words I have ever contributed much of use to the thread! I get involved every so often, drawn back - "you can check out any time you like, but you can never leave". Welcome to the Aberhaten Traingle?

cj x
 
And the authors of the new testament might have been telling the truth, but we have no evidence of that either.

For them to have been telling the truth there has to be evidence that the laws of nature are wrong, have been or can be suspended. This is insurmountable. Walking on water violates buoyancy. Multiplying dead fish violates The Laws of Thermodynamics. If these laws are not waiverable then either the original authors lied or the sections that are not possible because of these laws were added later. You simply can't get past this.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

ISF - Join now!

Every member here is approved by hand. No bots, no spam, just people who care about evidence and honest debate.

Membership is free!

Create your free account

Back
Top Bottom