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Merged Electric Sun Theory (Split from: CME's, active regions and high energy flares)

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it should be clear that what I meant is exactly what I said, that gravity and nuclear forces can't be generated or manipulated by amplification or impedance? Is this statement wrong? Has somebody discovered how to generate gravity or amplify the strong nuclear force while I was taking a dump?
You can accelerate something gravitationally by bringing the mass closer. This is trivial.
We can also scatter nuclei of other nuclei, protons of neutrons and the like. And know they didn't discover it while you were taking a dump unless you took that dump a long long time ago.

CLUE: psst...magnetic fields are generated only by electric discharges
Pssst, have you ever seen a bar magnet?
 
Actually yeah, that's particle physics 101, the only known way to accelerate charged particles is to apply an electric field.
The old-fashioned CRT monitor in front of me uses a rather different known way to accelerate charged particles: magnetic deflection.

The fact that magnetic fields can accelerate (change the velocity of) charged particles that move through those fields is physics 102: freshman-level electromagnetism.

When technology that's literally three feet in front of my face relies upon the science you're denying, your denials fail to convince.

Semantic attacks on valid science will always fail. You can't accept the principles of electricity and magnetism always or accept them never. You can't say it works when it's convenient for you but is quackery and superstition the next moment.
It works here in my office, so your denials must be quackery and/or superstition.

Where are the experiments reproducing the sustained nuclear fusion imagined inside stars?
Some of those experiments are buried in Nevada. You may complain that the nuclear fusion was not sustained, but methinks you should be grateful.

That's not what's been happening in this case. In this case you and others have been presented many times the experimental verification for these ideas. No such verification exists for the "standard" model, the believers in that myth simply announce "the energies are too high", "the planets are not in line", "the entrails are not favorable", "we don't do tests".
I'd like to see your citations for the highlighted quotations.

It should be obvious that the sun is powered by external forces. To suggest otherwise is lunacy.
What, then, is the sun's external power source, and whence comes it?

This is a no-brainer. Black hole is said to be utterly unobservable, so there can never be any observational support for this idea. Further, since the energies are said to be impossible to reproduce, we have no burden to falsify this notion. As you can see from a tautological examination, "black hole" is not science.
That's rubbish. Black holes should be observable in exactly the same way that magnetic and electrostatic fields are observable: by observing the acceleration of a test particle in its vicinity.

It's a lot easier to create magnetic or electrostatic fields within terrestrial laboratories than it would be to create a terrestrial black hole, but you should be grateful for that also.

(Insert Far SideWP cartoon here.)
 
That's like bitching about GR theory because Einstein happens to be dead now. So what if Alfven is dead now? Does his work become worthless in your mind somehow? Did you earn a Nobel Prize in your lifetime, and was it in MHD theory?

What is the point of providing you with MORE information when you HAVEN"T READ what's already available to you?


The point of actually providing a solar model when asked would be to, well, demonstrate that such a model even exists. But we all know it doesn't or it would have been presented by now.
 
Steady-on. This most definitely not what Arthur thinks of as an electric sun model and is not the opinion I have generally found from other proponents.
But if you're talking about fusion on the outside and non-mainstream electric phenomena on the outside how can you claim parsimony?

Dungey didn't seem to have any problem reconciling his position with the mainstream position. Bruce worked with the standard solar model as far as I know. How do you know for sure you can rule out *EVERY* "electric" solar model based on fusion being an energy source? Not every "electric sun" theory has to begin with the premise that the WHOLE standard model is wrong, only because I happen to, and I don't even rule out fusion as an energy source. :)
 
FYI, even *BIRKELAND* was open to the idea of fission and/or fusion as an "internal" energy source. He talked about energy from the transmutation of elements and he even conducted active experiments hoping to find such a process without success according to the NY Times article.
 
Dungey didn't seem to have any problem reconciling his position with the mainstream position. Bruce worked with the standard solar model as far as I know. How do you know for sure you can rule out *EVERY* "electric" solar model based on fusion being an energy source? Not every "electric sun" theory has to begin with the premise that the WHOLE standard model is wrong, only because I happen to, and I don't even rule out fusion as an energy source. :)

I can't. But then someone needs to define for me what an electric solar model is.
 
Why? When did Bruce or Dungey ever make such a claim? When did Alfven even suggest that *NO* energy came from "fusion"?


So the electric Sun conjecture includes just any old amount of any damn thing any crank wants to pour into it. That sure makes it convenient for a bunch of folks that don't seem to be able to point to an actual solar model. Did I already say...

:dl:​
 
<sigh> then by your standards, I'm a lunatic, because I'm going to suggest that it's not obvious that the sun is externally powered.

I'd never suggest that you're a lunatic, but if you want to self-diagnose, more power to you.

If there are such quantitative models, then let's see them.

If you haven't even examined the models, how can you pretend to refute them?

I don't claim to have refuted it. I question its existence, which is why I asked you for a link.

If you're not trying to refute it, then why do you keep saying it's wrong? Bear in mind you confess complete and utter ignorance of the model.

Do you have one?

Yes.

That's simply not true. Being unobservable means that there can be no direct observation, but that doesn't mean that there's not observational support.

Being unobservable generally means it's not real. Can we observe atoms? Yes, because they're real. Everything that is real can be observed, by definition.

We can't directly observe electrons, either; would you regard them as pseudoscience?

If you can't observe it, it's not real. That's fundamental to all scientific investigation. We do not posit things that are unobservable if we want to remain in the realm of science. What's wrong with the explanation that magical invisible undetectable unicorns power the sun. Don't answer, it's a rhetorical question.

And AFAIK, nobody on this thread has questioned the existence of either electricity or magnetism, but if they do, you may rest assured that I'll refer them to your post.

Excellent, thank you.

But since you raised the question, what sort of observation would falsify EU?

The "EU", as you call it, is based on the notion that space everywhere is filled with plasma. This is directly supported by direct observations, not "indirectly supported" by speculations + observations. There is also experimental verification of plasma, as far out as we've managed to send probes capable of identifying it, space is filled with plasma. This moots most "modern" cosmological ideas, who frequently refer to these electrical phenomena in inappropriate terms like "bow shock" or "fountains" or "jets". Electrical engineers would laugh if these people came into their labs and announced some of the things they claim "explain" these electrical effects in terms of "magnetic reconnection" or "dark matter" or "singularity".
 
The passage you cited doesn't support your claim.
It does.

I'm not sure what scale you're looking at that predicts a solar flare should last 1,000,000 years.
If the energy is released in a solar flare via induction then that will have a time scale of 1,000,000 years given the size scale of 100,000 kilometers for solar flares.
Since the observed tine scale of solar falres is 100 seconds, this means that induction cannot supply the energy released.
(Originally Posted by Tim Thompson Why not induction?)

It kind of seems like you pulled that out your behind. Where is the math that led you to that number?
Read: Originally Posted by Tim Thompson Why not induction?

I just explained how by scaling laboratory plasmas up to the size of solar flares the time scale compares nicely. I'd call this another success for this model of solar flares.
All I saw was some assertions, no explanations. Perhaps you can give some citations to these experiments.

The fact that it can even be accurately modeled physically in the lab is astonishing in itself, so much of astronomy isn't practiced as a science the way plasma cosmology is.
That is correct. Science is practiced as a science. "plasma csomoloy" is not science - see the Plasma Cosmology - Woo or not thread. This shows that plasma cosmology does not exist as a scientific theory. Rather it is a collection of often mutually exclusive, often invalid theories.
But if you do have a plasma cosmology theory that actually matches the observations of the universe (e.g. the CMB power spectrum) then please present it there rather then derailing this thread.

I'm not sure what Timmy is presenting, honestly.
Arty: I'm not sure why you cannot see that Tim Thompson is presenting the science. Is quoting from a science textbook not a big enough hint?

It's okay for you to have this opinion, but I don't share it. How does that make you feel?
Warm & fuzzy :rolleyes:
I do not just have an opionion. I have had a couple of years of conversing with Michael Mozina to confirm is inability to understand science.

That's not exactly what happens, but it's close, I suppose.
That is exacty what happens in current-free double layers.

..snipped known properties of plasma...
The exploding double layer phenomenon is identical to the observed solar flare phenomenon. Except for scale they are utterly indistinguishable.
Citations please, e.g. how do exploding double layers create the observed changes in magnetic fields?
 
I can't. But then someone needs to define for me what an electric solar model is.

Other than his proposal of "electrical discharges" in the solar atmosophere, how were Bruce's beliefs any different from your own in terms of solar theory?

I don't know how to answer that question for you.
 
So the electric Sun conjecture includes just any old amount of any damn thing any crank wants to pour into it.

False.

The electric star model is based on a century of direct observation and experimental verification.

That sure makes it convenient for a bunch of folks that don't seem to be able to point to an actual solar model.

Again you profess complete ignorance of a coherent electrical model for these explanations, yet you feel perfectly safe pronouncing it all bunk. I'm sure I'm not the only one who's noticed this. How can you refute something you don't even fully understand?
 
It does.

If the energy is released in a solar flare via induction then that will have a time scale of 1,000,000 years given the size scale of 100,000 kilometers for solar flares.

Oh boloney. Tell that to the coil in your car as you drive next time. Every single discharge "spark" firing in every spark plug is a direct result of "induction".
 
This is irrelevant, since we know from direct observation that stellar fusion models are baseless and unpredictive, to say nothing of unfalsifiable and unverifiable. We can verify or falsify electrical models in the lab...strangely.

It's not irrelevant. It's very relevant, because it is in fact one of the ways the model could be falsified. If the total energy budget doesn't work, the model is false. So the fact that the energy budget does work is quite relevant. And it's not an unpredictive model. It predicts a neutrino generation rate, for example. Again, that's a way the model could be falsified. If the sun didn't generate neutrinos, then that would falsify the model. But again, it does.

Further, the derived mass of the sun is based on "gravity" models, which have been shown not to apply to charged bodies in plasma. Under such circumstances electromagnetic forces dominate, "gravity" vanishes to insignificance.

That's a novel argument. The earth orbits the sun because of electromagnetic effects, not gravity.

I wonder what you think the charge on the earth is, and what the fields it experiences are. Let's try to figure out if those plasma effects really dominate the dynamics of our orbit.

The conclusion to draw is that the derived mass of the sun is wrong, as are the derived masses of most if not all of the planets.

So if I take a solid, neutral object, measure its mass, and then measure the attraction it has towards the earth, what I'm measuring is not gravity, but... plasma effects.

Yeah, real convincing there.

Plus, of course, the earth's mass doesn't really matter for determining its orbit around the sun.

This failure of "gravity" models doesn't just apply to our solar system, though. It's been known for quite some time that "gravity" models don't accurately describe the behavior of galaxies (angular momentum and so on). Why is that? Galaxies are also dominated by electromagnetic forces. Stellar fusionists don't understand the electrical nature of the universe, all they have in their toolbox of explanations is "gravity", so they had to invent "black hole" in the center of every galaxy, then "dark matter" to patch the holes blown in the model by "black hole", then "dark energy" to patch the holes blown in "big bang", on and on like that. It's pathological, not science.

Black holes weren't invented to explain the mass at the center of galaxies. They're an unavoidable consequence of general relativity, which wasn't derived to explain galactic dynamics. So you have your history quite mistaken. But no matter. You don't believe in black holes, you don't believe in dark matter, you don't believe in dark energy, and you don't believe in general relativity. Instead, you want to replace it all with what you call plasma physics.

Too bad this plasma physics can't explain galactic rotation curves either.

The most damning thing "wrong with" the sun powering itself internally is that we observe a temperature minimum in the sun's corona, inconsistent with the stellar fusion model, unless the laws of thermodynamics are wrong.

This point has been addressed many times before. I'll try a slightly different approach this time. First, what's the radiant power output of the photosphere, and what's the radiant power output of the corona? Once we have these numbers, we can start examining them to try to make sense of them.
 
No. No. (Unless you want to get into a metaphysical debate on the meaning of "existence" and "produce" and so on.)
Huh? What would be metaphysical about whether fusion had been produced.

This is irrelevant, since we know from direct observation that stellar fusion models are baseless and unpredictive, to say nothing of unfalsifiable and unverifiable. We can verify or falsify electrical models in the lab...strangely.
Completely false. We can, for example and as I've pointed out a number of times, predict the number of neutrinos that should be observed.

Further, the derived mass of the sun is based on "gravity" models, which have been shown not to apply to charged bodies in plasma. Under such circumstances electromagnetic forces dominate, "gravity" vanishes to insignificance. The conclusion to draw is that the derived mass of the sun is wrong, as are the derived masses of most if not all of the planets. The only mass we have a reasonable chance of guessing is our own, from sampling it, not using "gravity" models which clearly don't apply in the solar system at large.
This is hilarious. Are you familiar with Kepler's laws? You know, the ones that can be derived from Newtonian mechanics and Newtonian gravity.

This failure of "gravity" models doesn't just apply to our solar system, though. It's been known for quite some time that "gravity" models don't accurately describe the behavior of galaxies (angular momentum and so on). Why is that? Galaxies are also dominated by electromagnetic forces.
No they are not. Charge shielding prevents that. Do you know anything about charge shielding?

Stellar fusionists don't understand the electrical nature of the universe, all they have in their toolbox of explanations is "gravity", so they had to invent "black hole" in the center of every galaxy, then "dark matter" to patch the holes blown in the model by "black hole", then "dark energy" to patch the holes blown in "big bang", on and on like that. It's pathological, not science.
You haven't even the faintest clue what you're talking about. There are 100,000s of papers in mainstream astronomy journals on electromagnetic phenomena.

The most damning thing "wrong with" the sun powering itself internally is that we observe a temperature minimum in the sun's corona, inconsistent with the stellar fusion model, unless the laws of thermodynamics are wrong.
Except it isn't inconsistent with the fusion model and thermodynamics as Zig has explained several times.
 
False.

The electric star model is based on a century of direct observation and experimental verification.

So are you going to provide those numbers? The ones that link the lab quantities to the solar quantities. Yes or no? And are you going to derive the scaling factors. Because without them any claims of lab verification are not based on science whatsoever. Science is a quantitative subject remember.

Again you profess complete ignorance of a coherent electrical model for these explanations, yet you feel perfectly safe pronouncing it all bunk. I'm sure I'm not the only one who's noticed this. How can you refute something you don't even fully understand?
If the propnoents make claims that are false then you don't have to understand everything.
 
Other than his proposal of "electrical discharges" in the solar atmosophere, how were Bruce's beliefs any different from your own in terms of solar theory?

I don't know how to answer that question for you.

Ok. If Bruce's beliefs rely on electrical discharges in a conductive medium then his ideas are wrong though.
 
It doesn't.

If the energy is released in a solar flare via induction then that will have a time scale of 1,000,000 years given the size scale of 100,000 kilometers for solar flares.

This specious claim is based on the false premise that "magnetic reconnection", a phenomenon that is poorly understood at best and utter metaphysical gibberish in any case, is responsible for solar flares. As I pointed out to you already, plasma effects are scalable, and the experiments in the lab mirror the effects we see on the sun precisely, even down to scale. The 100 second interval is a very nicely scaled match with exploding double layers in the lab, which persist for fractions of a second only. Your arbitrary figure of "1,000,000 years" seems to have been pulled from somebody's behind, not from any rational process of discovery.

Since the observed tine scale of solar falres is 100 seconds, this means that induction cannot supply the energy released.

Repeating it over and over again won't make it true. Perhaps you can demonstrate your mathematical analysis of this problem, by showing that these laboratory double layers exploding don't nicely conform to the same phenomenon we observe in the sun, with scale being the only significant difference? This will involve more than simply throwing out a large number and saying "you must be at least this old to ride this ride". That may work for carnies but no scientist would ever impose such an arbitrary condition.

Timmy-Thom just needs to come to grips with the fact that he's been wrong about many things for many decades. The right move for him now is to admit he made (many) a mistake, prove he can learn, and move on.
 
It does not matter that a plasma is a conductive medium, in fact a discharge can only happen *THROUGH* a conductive medium. Conductivity is a *REQUIREMENT*, not a problem. An "electical discharge" can occur in a a plasma anytime that (additional) stored magnetic field energy is converted to particle kinetic energy, even if "magnetic reconnection did it"!
Still wrong MM.
Try reading some of the several defintions of electrical discharge cited in this thread.
Try reading and understanding Peratt's entire definition rather than cherry picking his first sentence.

The first *REQUIREMENT* for an electrical discharge is a difference in electric potential , e.g. separated charges.
The second *REQUIREMENT* for an electrical discharge is that a dielectric medium breraks down to allow conduction. That give the sudden creatrion of current that is the "discharge" part of "electrical discharge".

Plasma fails this because it is never a dielectric medium - it conducts.
No breakdown = no electrical discharge.
No breakdown = a current.
​
 
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