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Will the internet survive energy contraction?

Ya know, if I have enough energy for a comfortable, albeit small dwelling (an energy efficient pre fabbed home would do nicely for me), healthy food, modern medical care, electric rail, and some modest electronic entertainment (small tv, Nintendo Wii), I would be fine, and still living far beyond a subsistence farmer. Given some of the pre fabbed homes I speak of generate all of their own electricity through purely renewable means, I'm guessing it's very possible to do now.

Heating, cooling and lighting are the heavy hitters for residential energy use. If you assume electricity is scarce and the amount of harvestable biomass is the same as the 18th century, say, then you need to go to some extremes to make things work.

In dry climates near the equator you can do quite well with thick dirt walls. The walls have a large heat capacity and cool the house during the hot day, they give off heat and warm the house during the cold night; it dampens the daily swing in temperature towards the average temperature.

In inhospitable places like northern Europe it is still possible to build homes that need very little heating. You need extremely good insulation; hermetically sealed, triple glazed, unopenable windows and a centralized ventilation system through a ~90% efficient counter-flow heat exchanger. Your body and a few appliances will keep the temperature tolerable except for really chilly days.

A little closer to the equator, in relatively dry climates, you can use earth sheltered housing. Just a few metres below the ground the temperature is "annualized". If your house is embedded in a hill(artificial or otherwise) or sunken into the ground with dirt piled up around the sides, you can go a significant way towards averaging out the indoor temperature over the year.

There is also seasonal thermal storage, with which you can store heat captured solar thermal collectors(e.g. http://www.dlsc.ca/borehole.htm)

Hot water heating can be handled for much of the year with solar thermal collectors even without seasonal storage.

With great care, it looks possible in many climates; but you'd have to be careful about both energy use and embodied energy.

I think this is a future of last resort, not one that we should strive for. It is clearly nicer if everyone has more spare time, less tedious work, electric cars are ubiquitous, ocassional air travel and vacations are affordable for the average man, space exploration is possible. There is clearly enough energy to sustain such a future for very long stretch of time; a little over 10 cubic metres of average crust contains enough uranium and thorium to supply 10 kW thermal for 100 years(approximately the current US and European living standard); it will take many millenia to exhaust ores and be forced to dig such low grade material. Lithium, deuterium and sunshine are similarly abundant.
 
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Heating, cooling and lighting are the heavy hitters for residential energy use. If you assume electricity is scarce and the amount of harvestable biomass is the same as the 18th century, say, then you need to go to some extremes to make things work.

Those all can be done via on site renewable processes, *if* the house itself is modeled for such a function (McMansions can't really fit into that dynamic, at least not very cost effectively). There's a line of pre fabbed homes which are dubbed "Zero Energy", and are rather affordable for the average American, and I'm sure European (or increasingly becoming so). My point was though to demonstrate to TFian a "high" or at least higher quality of life than substance farmer is doable, if you simply use less energy and use it more wisely (efficiently). BedZED is an example of a process that can be done to meet lower energy availability. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BedZED


It is clearly nicer if everyone has more spare time, less tedious work, electric cars are ubiquitous, ocassional air travel and vacations are affordable for the average man, space exploration is possible.

I agree.

I don't agree with giving up and going "back to the land" like "The Grand ArchDruid"
 
Yes, I know. It's a matter of "will they do it". All those workers have to be paid, fed, housed, etc. Rather expensive, unless you use free labor (slaves).

Your candlemakers have the same costs, but produce less value.

Given that information about the cost-benefit comparison of candle factories to hydroelectic dams is freely available, I'm pretty sure that most people with energy to spare will opt to build and maintain hydroelectric dams. Not only will they produce enough energy to meet all their power needs, they'll have enough left over to refurbish the dam components at regular intervals.

They'll even have enough surplus electricity to sell to your poor, starving, candle-makers, probably in exchange for candles to grace their dining tables--though they'd probably find it more efficient to use their surplus electricity to build and operate their own candle-factory. They'd probably hire your candle-makers to work in it, and sell the resulting candles at a profit to shipmasters bringing computer components and other valuable cargoes from foreign lands, where high-quality candles are valued as a luxury item.

This post-apocalyptic wasteland of yours seems better and better all the time. Of course, it also seems more and more like the pre-apocalyptic wasteland we currently inhabit...
 
Of course, that still has nothing to do with the topic at hand, and also ignores the rule of focusing on the argument, rather than the individual making the argument, but *shrugs*, what can you do about em? Either engage in the argument, or simply leave (or go into my ignore list, either way works for me)

There's not really much of an argument left to engage in though, is there? You've been shown where you're wrong, with the evidence to back it up. Now you're just going back to your original claims and pretending that your ideas are still based on valid premises.
 
There's not really much of an argument left to engage in though, is there? You've been shown where you're wrong, with the evidence to back it up. Now you're just going back to your original claims and pretending that your ideas are still based on valid premises.

Then don't respond. Easy as pie. :)

Anyway, unless you have anything else to say on the topic, welcome to my ignore list.
 
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Rail is not as efficient as container-ships, but it's still about an order of magnitude more energy efficient than a truck and it can be electrified. About half of European railways are electrified because we don't levy punitive property taxes on electrified rail. Slow down you get major fuel savings for the same journey.

Electric cranes and a system of electrified cargo trams(when needed) move the containers between ports and railway stations.

The last handful of miles can be handled with electrified cargo trams, which also can be electrified. Tram lines can accomodate both passenger trams and cargo trams.

Electricity isn’t an energy source; it has to be generated, using some other energy source to do so. The electricity that powers the European and Japanese rail systems is mostly generated by plants that burn coal, with significant help from nuclear reactors and a rather smaller assist from hydroelectric plants. Of these, only the hydroelectric plants are a renewable energy source; the others are poised just as firmly on the downslope of depletion as the diesel oil that runs American locomotives.

Coal is turning out to be much less abundant than the cozy estimates of a few decades ago made it sound, and of course there’s the far from minor impact of coal burning on an already unstable global climate. Fissionable uranium is well down its own depletion curve, and it’s worth noting that the enthusiastic claims sometimes made for breeder reactors, the use of thorium as a nuclear fuel, and other alternatives to conventional fission plants are very rarely to be heard from people who have professional training in the fields concerned. The European and Japanese rail systems that so excite people's admiration are just as dependent on nonrenewable fuels as the American system, and are also just as vulnerable to the economic implications of supply and demand as energy supplies dwindle.

Only nobles could afford candles.

True, but there's cheap local ways to produce them.

Mechanical farming is more efficient than horses(thanks in large part because it consumes no energy when it is idle). If you insist on electrification of farming implement being impossible they can use a gasifier operated on pelletized crop wastes/wood chips or some syn fuel from crop wastes/wood chips.

Not true.

Replacing tractors with horses would be a good move since horse manure is a perfect fertilizer for agricultural soil. Since tractors don’t produce excrements, fertilizers have to come from somewhere else. That can be manure from animals which are being raised for their meat, or (mostly) artificial fertilizers. In both cases, it takes additional fossil fuels to fertilize the soil – for transporting animal manure to the fields, or for manufacturing fossil fuel based fertilizers (and transporting them too).

Horses have more advantages over tractors. They reproduce themselves, while tractors don’t. That means more oil saved, and other resources like water and metals, because if you switch to horses you don’t have to manufacture tractors. And while tractors need fossil fuels to operate, horses don’t. Large tractors have engines of up to 500 horsepower, which makes them consume up to twice as much fuel as a large SUV.

Switching (back) from tractors to horses would make agriculture almost completely independent of oil and minerals – and that could make quite a difference in a world that is (according to many) running out of fossil fuels and minerals. Horses could mean food security, without any need for importing anything. Moreover, horses don’t emit greenhouse gases worth mentioning (contrary to ruminants like cows) and they don’t pollute the air. Horses might be the solution that agriculture needs.
 
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Electricity isn’t an energy source; it has to be generated, using some other energy source to do so. The electricity that powers the European and Japanese rail systems is mostly generated by plants that burn coal, with significant help from nuclear reactors and a rather smaller assist from hydroelectric plants. Of these, only the hydroelectric plants are a renewable energy source; the others are poised just as firmly on the downslope of depletion as the diesel oil that runs American locomotives.

Again, this has already been shown to be incorrect; while nuclear reactors are indeed burning "consumable" fuel, the numbers upthread show that we've got several hundred thousand years worth of fuel, even assuming unrealistically high growth rates.


Fissionable uranium is well down its own depletion curve,

Nope. Seawater, remember? From upthread?


the use of thorium as a nuclear fuel, and other alternatives to conventional fission plants are very rarely to be heard from people who have professional training in the fields concerned.

And this is simply a lie. As has been shown upthread.
 
And while tractors need fossil fuels to operate, horses don’t. Large tractors have engines of up to 500 horsepower, which makes them consume up to twice as much fuel as a large SUV.

Why would you feed and maintain 500 horses when you can just have a tractor?
 
And while tractors need fossil fuels to operate, horses don’t. Large tractors have engines of up to 500 horsepower, which makes them consume up to twice as much fuel as a large SUV. .

There are good ways to discuss petroleum consumption by farming. Comparing mpg with an SUV isn't one of them, unless you consider how many gallons of gas that SUV will use to plow a 300 acre field.

There were a bunch of reasons farmers were so happy to switch from horses to tractors, and you don't seem to address that at all. Aside from the economics of it, managing and caring for teams of horses was effectively a second job, on top of the farming itself. Tractors need maintenance, but they don't die if you leave them in a locked barn for a week while you go on vacation. (You know, vacation -- that thing you can't go on when you are taking care of livestock.)

Also tractors can be powered by local biomass energy, they do not require petroleum as you seem to indicate.
 
Electricity isn’t an energy source; it has to be generated, using some other energy source to do so.

Hydro, nuclear fission.

The electricity that powers the European and Japanese rail systems is mostly generated by plants that burn coal, with significant help from nuclear reactors and a rather smaller assist from hydroelectric plants.

That's a gross distortion. IEA electricity stats for Europe 2008.

The releavant numbers are these:
coal: 934062 GWh.
nuclear: 921778 GWh.
gas: 868798 GWh.
hydro: 541784 GWh.
wind: 120067 GWh
oil: 103812 GWh.

Nuclear is not a "significant help", it is as big as coal. You could try and argue that you can't use the average grid mix; the countries that have the most electrified rail are also the ones who burn the most coal, but I find that rather unlikely(given France's interest in electrified rail it may be the reverse).

Hydro is not a "small assist", it's almost 60% the size of coal.

Of these, only the hydroelectric plants are a renewable energy source[...]

There's no such thing as renewables. The sun uses up 600 million tonnes of hydrogen every second; so called renewable energies merely mooch an infinitesimal amount of this power.

[...]the others are poised just as firmly on the downslope of depletion as the diesel oil that runs American locomotives.

Nuclear fission is sustainable on geological time scales.

Average crust(not ore, any random junk rock) contains ~3 ppm U, ~10 ppm Th. A tonne of average crust contains ~1.0 TJ of usable energy; equivalent to 28 tonnes of anthracite coal.

Coal is turning out to be much less abundant than the cozy estimates of a few decades ago made it sound[...]

Would that it were true, but it's not.

Fissionable uranium is well down its own depletion curve

We're finding high grade uranium(<$130/kg) much faster than we're using it up, with a miniscule amount of exploratory effort. There's no particular significance to the $130/kg number; in a conventional LWR that uses ~0.5% of the usable energy $130/kg yellowcake corresponds to ~$3 per barrel of oil equivalent. Uranium is log-normal distributed; go to an ore grade one tenth as rich and you find ~30 times more uranium.

Uranium depletion is silly doomer porn.

Not true.

Yes it is.

Replacing tractors with horses would be a good move since horse manure is a perfect fertilizer for agricultural soil.

Replacing tractors with horses would be a bad move, since they'll be getting most of their energy from grains and alphalpha, perfectly good human food; they'll be needing food, basic care, and housing all year round and you'll need a lot more horses than than the tractors you replace.

Herbicide resistance GMO crops don't need tilling; it does not suffer the soil carbon loss which the manure is intended to remedy.

Since tractors don’t produce excrements, fertilizers have to come from somewhere else.

The fuel needed to operate agricultural implements can be made from pyrolysis and syngasification of agricultural waste, while sequestering carbon in the form of char and recycling P and K.

If you think that's too technically difficult, you can use a gasifier, fueled by some mixture of wood, briquetted wood waste or agricultural waste; it's really not very picky and it's very low tech.

Manure does not magick fixed nitrogen, potassium or phosphorus into existance; it just recycles them. As such you either use the artificial NPK or you suffer pre-green revolution yields.

Horses are no substitute for pesticides. You will be using pesticides at least occassionally or risking catastrophic crop failures.

Horses have more advantages over tractors. They reproduce themselves, while tractors don’t.

And that's an advantage? Horses carry with them an energy wasting reproductive machinery; the tractor leaves that machinery at the factory, where it can be put to good use.

Horses cost a lot of energy to manufacture; before they are usable they require years of investment in the form of food energy, one of the most expensive forms of energy and significant amounts of time and effort.

That means more oil saved

What oil?

[...]and other resources like water and metals, because if you switch to horses you don’t have to manufacture tractors.

Iron is not exactly scarce and it's recyclable with fairly low tech equipment. It takes a lot more water to make and sustain a horse than it take to make a tractor; it's not even in the same league. It takes ~10 000 gallons of water to grow a single bushel of wheat and it takes ~40 000 gallons of water to make a modern 4-seat car. A horse will eat 2-3 tonnes of food per year, of that about 1 tonne of which will be grains(~35 bushels), and you'll need many horses to replace just one tractor.

And while tractors need fossil fuels to operate, horses don’t.

They need fuel, but they don't need fossil fuels. Liquid fuels are best, but wood gas generators are doable. It's been used for this purpose as early as world war II.

Large tractors have engines of up to 500 horsepower, which makes them consume up to twice as much fuel as a large SUV.

When you turn off the ignition, the fuel consumption stops. Horses don't have any ignition to turn off, they just go into an idle mode where they burn slightly less fuel.
 
Would that it were true, but it's not.

But it is. http://www.energybulletin.net/node/28287

Uranium depletion is silly doomer porn.

But it's not. It's 100% true. http://groups.google.com/group/fbc-re/msg/99d189c134dadceb?pli=1 Looks like we'll only have enough to satisfy demand up to 2035. How can anyone argue uranium isn't peaking?

Also, a lot of this is moot anyway, since according to the Hirsch report, everything that should be done to deal with peak oil had to be done 20 years ago. It's too late now. We'll have to live with peak oil, rather than look to solve it.
 
But it's not. It's 100% true. http://groups.google.com/group/fbc-re/msg/99d189c134dadceb?pli=1 Looks like we'll only have enough to satisfy demand up to 2035. How can anyone argue uranium isn't peaking?

How can they argue that uranium isn't peaking? In this thread, much more convincingly than you have argued the opposite.

Ie:
- Our demand for newly mined uranium will decrease as we impliment breeder reactors.
- There is plenty of uranium in the ground.
- There is even more uranium in sea water.

/thread
 
- Our demand for newly mined uranium will decrease as we impliment breeder reactors.

Those remained hyped and largely theoretical really. I'll believe them when I see them.

- There is plenty of uranium in the ground.

Up to 2030s is plenty? read http://groups.google.com/group/fbc-re/msg/99d189c134dadceb?pli=1

- There is even more uranium in sea water

Yeah, and gold comes out of my ass along with a supply of STD free roadside whores.
 
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So what about the uranium? This thread isn't about "will breeder reactors live up to X hype", but "Will the Internet survive energy contraction". I, and others in this thread demonstrated the minuscule amounts of energy needed to power the world wide web, and the even more minuscule amounts to power a global Internet on packet radio (which even Greer accepts is plausible) The World Wide Web can easily be powered by local renewable power sources, with no need for nuclear energy.
 
Those remained hyped and largely theoretical really. I'll believe them when I see them.
That's fine. The rest of us can assess the evidence that's been presented in this thread.



Another poster pointed out recently that there is a viable amount of uranium distributed thinly throughout the earth's crust. You didn't respond to that.



Yeah, and gold comes out of my ass along with a supply of STD free roadside whores.
That's great, but it doesn't change the fact that there is uranium in sea water.
 
That's fine. The rest of us can assess the evidence that's been presented in this thread.

How many breeder reactors are in operation now. How many GenIV reactors?

Another poster pointed out recently that there is a viable amount of uranium distributed thinly throughout the earth's crust. You didn't respond to that.

With no source to back that up.

That's great, but it doesn't change the fact that there is uranium in sea water.

And what next? That 9-11 wasn't an inside job?
 

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