• Security incident: ISF was recently accessed by intruders. Please change your password, and change it anywhere else you used it. Read more

Evidence for why we know the New Testament writers told the truth.

Status
Not open for further replies.
Post 13104

Ably refuted by Waterman here.

DOC, do you have anything new to bring to the table? Because everything in your post 13104 and those preceding it has already been dealt with; you have been shown that while what you have posted may well count as evidence for people's beliefs, it is not evidence for the veracity of the NT.
 
Last edited:
Post #11054

Here is information from it, along with some minor additions.

There are over 5000 New Testament manuscripts in existence compared to 7 manuscripts for Plato and 20 for famous Roman Historian Tacitus.

Respected archaeologist Sir William Mitchell Ramsay called gospel writer Luke a great historian with regard to facts that can be proven by historical and archaeological evidence.

The fact that there are about 40 written sources for the life of Christ (31 Christian + 9 non-Christian) compared to 10 written sources (9 non-Christian + 1 Christian) for the life of Tiberius Caesar, the Roman emperor during the life of Christ.

Christianity had spread all the way to Rome by peaceful means and Nero blamed the Christians in Rome for the Roman fire in 64 ad.-- 31 years after the death of Christ.

Jews have been converted to Christianity because of Isaiah Chapter 53 and at least one writer has claimed there are 25 fulfilled prophesies in that one chapter.

Most archaeologists {who study the biblical era} believe Jesus' 1st century tomb is most probably directly under the Church of the Holy Sepulchre.

Oxford professor Thomas Arnold's statement regarding the evidence of Christ's life and the Resurrection and how he considered those topics to have more historical evidence than any other fact in history up to that point.

The Moral Argument

The Cosmological Argument

The Teleological Argument

11 apostles suffered a martyrs death in spite of the fact it was recorded they acted cowardly and uncertain before the resurrection.

Simon Greenleaf, a founder of Harvard Law School, said the 4 Gospel accounts could be admitted in a court as evidence, and that divergent accounts are normal for eyewitnesses.

A Rabbi stated that the Oral Torah {and thus oral tradition evidence} is "more important" than the Written Torah. This statement is important because oral tradition evidence was also important in early Christianity (in that era of no paper and little public literacy).

http://www.aish.com/jl/48943186.html

PhD. in astrophysics Dr. Hugh Ross claims there are about 2000 fulfilled prophecies in the Bible.

http://www.reasons.org/fulfilled-prophecy-evidence-reliability-bible
This? Really?
 
God gives the different sexes different callings, but they are still equal before him. I don't complain that God does not allow me to give birth to a baby.
This doesn't sound like "separate but equal" roles, it sounds like subservience (bolding mine):
I Corinthians 11:3 said:
11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
Hokulele already called you on this one, but it bears repeating: the right to "speak in church" or the ability to be the head of a family are ethical or intellectual considerations; childbearing is biological.


And most denominations do allow woman to teach and speak in church.
But the Apostle Paul didn't:
I Corinthians 14:35-35 said:
14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.
14:35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.


[You notice that in both cases I have cited the verses for your convenience, since you seem to have difficulty finding them for yourself.]


But he was, which is why 4 US presidents flew 7000 miles to visit the former pope's funeral and why we are talking about him 2000 years later.
No, they went because it was the funeral of a head of state.

And we're still talking about Julius Caesar and Cleopatra 2,000+ years later, and Tutankhamun approximately 3,000 years later, and dinosaurs several million years later.
 
Nope. Nothing he {Jesus} introduced was particularly new....
So then you must believe Thomas Jefferson wasted his time when he cut out 900 verses of the NT with a razor, showed each verse translated into 4 different languages, and pasted them all in a book, since you believe nothing Jesus introduced was particularly new.
 
Last edited:
So then you must believe Thomas Jefferson wasted his time when he cut out 900 verses of the NT with razor and pasted them in a book, because nothing Jesus introduced was particularly new.
Well, yes; absolutely. But it was his time to waste. Some people like to crochet, some to watch paint dry. Most people have hobbies, one of Jefferson's hobbies was to take out all the supernatural bits of the bible. That isn't evidence that the NT writers were telling the truth.
 
And here are the refutations of that post. Well, a few of them. It wouldn't do for me to flood the thread with all of them, so a preresentative sample will have to do.
I think that he referring to my referenced above:


Edited to correct misspellings



Actually if you are going to split hairs this finely, DOC has now misquoted Lothian and should retract and apologize. The actually quote was “because…” not “if…” If you are going to be this picky about the precision of wording then you should be careful to apply the same level of scrutiny to your own writings.

However this whole side discussion is irrelevant to the point of the OP. You appear to have selected my reference below as most matching your position.

2. It is true but not because the Bible says so, it just is.
We need corroborating evidence outside the biblical texts of the events in question not just the existence of Christians or opinions of famous people.
​
If we do not have that outside corroborating evidence then you are back to position 3, which you imply is not what you believe. Here is where we have be trying to get you to provide that supporting information. You provided a lot of things in your oft referenced post 11054. Since they have been addressed at length in the past I will be brief.

5000 New Testament manuscripts:
1. this is irrelevant to whether or not the story is true.
2. how many of these actually date to within a few years of the life of Jesus
3. You also seem limit your comments to the 5000 NT references. But the NT is more than just the Jesus story, what percentage of the 5000 is actually dealing with that and not Revelations.

Sir William Mitchell Ramsay:
1. Opinion of a famous guys does not count as evidence
2. Besides he expressly exclude the magical stuff

40 written sources for the life of Christ (31 Christian + 9 non-Christian)
1. You have mixed referenced to Christians in this list as equivalent to Christ
2. There are suspected forgeries in this list
3. You have not cited any as actual witnesses of the events beyond the recording of a man crucified that fits the name (and a common one at that)
4. This is not evidence that the story is true
5. Do any of these non-Christian sources make any referenced to miracles?

Christianity had spread all the way to Rome by peaceful means and Nero blamed the Christians in Rome for the Roman fire in 64 ad.-- 31 years after the death of Christ.
1. Evidence of the existence of Christians is not evidence that all the NT is true.
2. Peaceful expansion has no bearing on the truth of the bible

Jews have been converted to Christianity because of Isaiah Chapter 53 and at least one writer has claimed there are 25 fulfilled prophesies in that one chapter.
1. Conversions are irrelevant to the truth, people change religions all the time.
2. Others have pointed out that the passages in Isaiah have been taken out of context and twisted to fit the fable or visa versa

Most archaeologists believe Jesus' 1st century tomb is most probably directly under the Church of the Holy Sepulchre.
1. No references cited suspect that this is a skewed sampling that is limited to at least Christian Archeologist if not an even smaller subset.
2. Irrelevant to the truth in the NT.
3. A unmarked tomb was ‘rediscovered’ 200-300 years after the resurrection and accurately attributed to Jesus having been there 3 nights. How did they determine this?

Thomas Arnold's statement
1. Opinion of a famous guy does not count as evidence.
2. Besides it is obviously hyperbole

The Moral Argument,
1. this is not evidence it is a philosophical argument
2. It is a bad one that fails on several points

The Cosmological Argument,
1. this is not evidence it is a philosophical argument
2. It is a bad one that fails on several points

Martyrs
1. Irrelevant, only evidence of conviction/belief
2. Special pleading, my martyrs count but yours don’t.

Simon Greenleaf
1. Opinion of a famous guy does not count as evidence.
2. Relies on Special Pleading and his argument can equally be applied to other religions

The Oral Torah is more important than written the Written Torah.
1. What? Why is this even here?
2. This undermines you point.

Dr. Hugh Ross claims
1. Opinion of a famous guy does not count as evidence.

DOC, We are still waiting for the evidence you have promised. We understand that the above arguments have allowed you to conclude that the bible is true. However when thoroughly examined under the harsh light of logic there are insubstantial as actual evidence of the resurrection.

If you want to reduce the level of harassment you are getting you are going to have to put fourth something new and a little more grounded in logic. Otherwise you are likely to continue to get more of the same.

Cool! Since we are re-spamming posts and points that have long been dealt with...

Actually, no. The sentence is very misleading, first of, because it suggests the idea of a large number of tombs, of a long use as a cemetary, in reality, only two tombs are present.
More importantly, these tombs are unlikely to be from the first century, because Hebrews at the time did not bury their dead West of the city, (upwind for the dominant winds . Indeed, when we look at the East, North, or South of the city, we find a large number of tombs.




They never mentioned 'looking like a skull'. It just that the name translates as 'mount of the skull' it is only an assumption (albeit a logical one) that it is because it looks like one.
The whole description of the garden, on the other hand, is very far stretched. The (putative) existence of a few greens struggling to survive on a piece of rock hardly a garden make, I wouldn't think the 'world greatest historian of all time !!!1!!1eleventone' would make such a mistake....



Eusebius being born 200 years later, was writing about hearsays.
Socrates Scholasticus, was born even one century after that and based most of his work on this period on Eusebius himself.




That's actually weird, as the precise perimeter of the city walls at the time was not known, more importantly check point 6, part one.




At best, it would be pure conjecture.
In fact, we know that the temple was in reality constructed there so that to be adjacent to the forum AND located on one of the main crossroad of the city.
It is also worth noting that the whole motivations of Hadrian appear shaky. Why recover the tomb in such a way that it could be found again? Why not just destroy it altogether?
Indeed, father Corbo's reconstruction of the temple, that allows it to recover the tomb, is pretty much discredited.



First of all, can you check point 4 again?
There, it was argued that the site not being constructed was weird. Now it is argued that constructed on the site was exceedingly difficult. The two points are contradictory...
In reality, there are several reasons why the church would have been constructed there.
First of all, churches were often constructed on older pagan monuments. It was even recommended policy for the early English church.
Also, saying that the tradition would have been scrutinized carefully is very much wishful thinking. At any rate, what exactly where they supposed to scrutinize? There is nothing to suggest that there was anything to scrutinize but the local traditions, that would have been firmly established in 200 years.
Indeed, if the traditions were so reliable, how come that we have several "traditional" locations for the burial site?




He also fails to mention the mother of the emperor being the one discovering it, which is the traditional account.
He also attribute the discovery to a 'miraculous vision' that seems pretty suspicious (or the introduction of a pious fraud).

Finally, the 'original memorial' is misleading. The tradition is that 'remains of the cross' were found, which is way less convincing. I'm pretty sure Jesus was taken down rather than carried on the cross to his burial site. Plus, what exactly is a 'remnant of the cross', an old piece of wood? Hardly seems convincing... to me, but it'd surely be more than enough to convince somebody trying to be convinced...





Yeah... right.
First of all, funny how you truncate the article before they start adressing the challenges to the authenticity of the tomb. Sure, they are very dismissive, but at least, they acknowledge the existence of some controversy.

In reality, there are problem with the Holy Sepulcher as the burial place of Jesus, first of all, as said, it is located West of Jerusalem, which contradict the burial traditions of the period.
Furthermore, the Biblical location describe it as "just outside the city walls" and it is unlikely that the walls would have run at this place. First of all, the city would actually have been quite small.
Furthemore, the walls there would have been dominated by a local prominence, it would have made now strategical sense. More sensible would be for them to be constructed at the place where Suleiman the magnificent was to build his... Indeed, we have yet to find any archaeological evidence for a fortification at any emplacement compatible with the Holy Sepulcher.


So, to conclude, I am personally not convinced, mostly because of the walls location. Many scholars might disagree with me, on this, of course but, personally, I don't see any compelling reason to believe that the tradition is correct.
Certainly, I would concede that no other competing location is more convincing but that does not mean that the Holy Sepulcher wins by default, that means that, most likely, the actual location of the Sepulcher is and will remain, like so many parts of the Jesus story, lost to us and enshrouded behind the deep fogs of centuries of mythology.


And, obviously, this is all based on the assumption that Jesus was a real living person that was indeed buried in Jerusalem, as I stated in previous post, I have no reason to doubt it, then again, I hardly have any more reasons to actually believe it either...

->And, of course, it has not bearing on whereas the Gospel writers told the truth considering that they never actually give any precise location...
 
So then you must believe Thomas Jefferson wasted his time when he cut out 900 verses of the NT with a razor and pasted them in a book since you believe nothing Jesus introduced was particularly new.

1800 years after the fact? No, it wasn't "particularly new."
 
Now, I ask you again, DOC, where is the HARD evidence that you have for how we know that the authors of the nt told the truth?
 
DOC, if all people are equal before your god, why aren't women allowed to teach or speak in church and why do you believe that a man should be the moral head of the household? That doesn't sound very equal, does it.

God gives the different sexes different callings, but they are still equal before him. I don't complain that God does not allow me to give birth to a baby. And most denominations do allow woman to teach and speak in church.

I think you are confusing "equal before god" with equal in a more tangible earthly sense. Like being able to own land, drive a car, decide on marriage on ones own.
 
So then you must believe Thomas Jefferson wasted his time when he cut out 900 verses of the NT with a razor, showed each verse translated into 4 different languages, and pasted them all in a book, since you believe nothing Jesus introduced was particularly new.
Yes. TJ was a great man, probably one of the greatest of his time, but he was also a product of his time. It was a rare man then to stand up to the status quo (some thing that TJ had an issue doing - vis his stance on slavery...huh, he seems to have something in common with Jesus there doesn't he*?) and say "there is no god, all this is rubbish". Hells bells, it's hard for people today to say that, and there's not nearly the stigma against atheists nowadays.












*Could it be that TJ was the second coming?
 
So then you must believe Thomas Jefferson wasted his time when he cut out 900 verses of the NT with a razor, showed each verse translated into 4 different languages, and pasted them all in a book, since you believe nothing Jesus introduced was particularly new.

Do you know what parts of the nt Jefferson was excising?
 
So then you must believe Thomas Jefferson wasted his time when he cut out 900 verses of the NT with a razor, showed each verse translated into 4 different languages, and pasted them all in a book, since you believe nothing Jesus introduced was particularly new.


Seeing as he got rid of a lot of rubbish, it wasn't necessarily a waste of time, but in my opinion, he would have done better by reading the Pali Canon or the Tao de Ching.

He would have gotten the good stuff without all the bigoted nonsense in the first place.
 
So when I spent hours, days and weeks arranging baseball cards just so into display books, was that evidence that baseball was true?

mildly profane video evidence for my "belief"
 
Last edited:
But he was, which is why 4 US presidents flew 7000 miles to visit the former pope's funeral and why we are talking about him 2000 years later.

No,we are talking about people like you who believe that a man rose from the dead,and expect us to believe it without a shred of evidence.
 
Well, yes; absolutely. But it was his time to waste. Some people like to crochet, some to watch paint dry. Most people have hobbies, one of Jefferson's hobbies was to take out all the supernatural bits of the bible. That isn't evidence that the NT writers were telling the truth.


And some of us tear apart silly arguments in an online forum...
 
re: OT death penalty other than apostacy.

Does the Koran or the Haddith require stoning disobedient children (Deuteronomy 21:18-21 ) or for working on the Sabbath (Numbers 15:32-36)? Were these supposedly done away with in the NT? Or is the ability to eat bacon more important than giving a sinner a chance to change his/her ways? Knowing Hokulele and a few others in this forum, there will now be a 10 minute pause to let them stop drooling at the mention of bacon.

CT
 
Seeing as he got rid of a lot of rubbish, it wasn't necessarily a waste of time, but in my opinion, he would have done better by reading the Pali Canon or the Tao de Ching.

He would have gotten the good stuff without all the bigoted nonsense in the first place.

Yeah, but then he wouldn't have been able to own slaves. Only the bible told him that was a moral thing to do.
 
re: OT death penalty other than apostacy.

Does the Koran or the Haddith require stoning disobedient children (Deuteronomy 21:18-21 ) or for working on the Sabbath (Numbers 15:32-36)? Were these supposedly done away with in the NT? Or is the ability to eat bacon more important than giving a sinner a chance to change his/her ways? Knowing Hokulele and a few others in this forum, there will now be a 10 minute pause to let them stop drooling at the mention of bacon.

CT
Dude. I'd gladly spend eternity in hell if I knew they served bacon.

Especially bacon wrapped peanut butter.

Dipped in chocolate.

and deep fried.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

ISF - Join now!

Every member here is approved by hand. No bots, no spam, just people who care about evidence and honest debate.

Membership is free!

Create your free account

Back
Top Bottom