• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Has consciousness been fully explained?

Status
Not open for further replies.
Pure mathematics is an abstract notion; it can't be a substrate. Information, maybe. Computation, maybe. Mathematics itself? No.
Just to expand on that, I have no trouble with a Universe that can be described entirely by mathematics. But I'm not convinced that the phrase "the Universe is mathematics" is a meaningful construction.
 
Last edited:
PixyMisa said:
Pure mathematics is an abstract notion; it can't be a substrate. Information, maybe. Computation, maybe. Mathematics itself? No.
Just to expand on that, I have no trouble with a Universe that can be described entirely by mathematics. But I'm not convinced that the phrase "the Universe is mathematics" is a meaningful construction.


Why?
 
The system depicted in the XKCD comic is based on cellular automaton rule 110, which has been proven "universal" aka Turing-complete. (Cellular automaton rule 34 has uninteresting behavior.)

A cellular automaton, though, updates all cells simultaneously, while our stick figure is going one cell at a time. So the system as "implemented" is more like a simple Turing machine that executes the equivalent of rule 110 as its head scans back and forth along the tape. Such a Turing machine is easily constructed (see NKS page 665 for examples for two other cellular automaton rules).

Leaving the pattern behind (that is, creating a new row with each pass instead of just modifying a single row over and over again) is unnecessary for the computation. Given that the desert has sufficient dimensions to allow for it, I suppose there's no reason not to, but the continued existence of those earlier rows doesn't affect anything or mean anything. It would work just as well if he were limited to one row in an infinite hallway or, perhaps, moving hats between the upper and lower pegs of an infinitely long hat rack. (Moving the rocks on the ground requires so much bending over...)

If the computation using rocks in the desert includes generating conscious beings, then the ongoing computation is the substrate (probably the deepest of multiple layers of computational substrate) for that consciousness. The pattern left behind, by contrast, is just a big bitmap of dumb rocks.

That the pattern is not the same as the process, can be obscured by mistakenly assuming equivalences that apply in mathematics but not in computing.

In mathematics, the expression "2^10" is generally regarded as completely equivalent to the expression "1024." Nothing mathematical is actually gained or learned by doing the multiplication, or by any deterministic computation. For instance, generating a detailed image of a portion of a zoomed in Mandelbrot Set does not create or reveal anything that wasn't already implicit in the equations that define the set.

But computing isn't mathematics. Computing isn't anything until it happens. You don't have 1024 from 2^10 until you multiply it out. You don't actually know what the Mandelbrot set looks like until you do the computing to generate the image.

Mathematical proofs about computing can be created without actually doing the computations described in the proofs, but that's mathematics not computing. On the other hand, the computing required in the course of doing mathematics must be done in order to count. Proofs, for instance, must actually be found and enumerated -- that's a form of computation -- and not merely claimed to exist implicitly in the axioms of a system.

The close relationship between mathematics and computing generates understandable confusion. But implicit-ness applies only in mathematics. In mathematics the ten billionth digit of pi exists implicitly; in computing it exists when you've done the work to figure out what it is. Minesweeper as the title of a piece of software is implicit in the patterns of bits on my hard drive when my computer is off, but Minesweeper as an actual game event doesn't happen unless the program is running.

So if consciousness is a phenomenon of computation, it does not follow that a string of symbols specifying a computation can be conscious. That attempted reductio ad absurdum fails. That something can become conscious does not imply that it is conscious, any more than than a tree is a chest of drawers because under the right circumstances it can become a chest of drawers.

Perhaps the pattern of a meteor shower or the expansion of pi can generate strings of digits which could generate consciousness if used as the input of a suitable computation. That doesn't mean anything unless that computation actually happens. If it does not happen, then there is no consciousness.

And the proposition that "everything is computation, so therefore every possible computation must occur" cannot rescue the notion. Not only does the conclusion not follow from the premise, but the premise itself at best (that is, if it's even true) equivocates the meaning of "computation." Not all computation is universal, and universality is a rather low bar to set if we want to specify computation that is capable of interesting and complex phenomena such as consciousness. At present only certain systems have been proved capable of universal computation. Generally, all such systems, despite their enormous diversity, have certain characteristics in common. Most notably, persistent but changeable local state information.

Some systems (Wolfram calls them Class 1) do not preserve any state information. A puff of smoke just dissipates and disappears, reaching the same end state regardless of the initial shape of the puff. Some systems (Wolfram calls them Class 2) preserve state information but do not permit them to change, except perhaps in a repeating pattern that doesn't compute anything new. That's your rock. Some systems (Wolfram calls them Class 3) internally propagate state information indiscriminately so that the state of any part quickly (at some internal propagation speed) affects the state of all other parts, with no possibility of preserving information for the time it takes to access it. These systems generate randomness. That's your bowl of soup.

All known universal computers are Class 4, for which internal information propagation is locally contingent on state. Turing machines have a tape that remains unchanged except for the location where the head currently is; Class 4 cellular automata have fixed or moving local structures that persist until they interact with other local structures they come in contact with; conventional computers have memory and registers; neural networks have synapse weightings; genetic systems have populations of genomes; formal systems have strings of symbols and rules governing which parts of a string can be changed at any given point.

(Wolfram proposes that Class 3 systems are also capable of universal computation. I think he's wrong about that.)

So, where do you look for the consciousness that we're pretty sure does exist, in our own selves? Somewhere in the brain, but where? In the ion channels? In the map of neural connections or the matrix of their coefficients? That's like looking for the heat in the pixels of a digital photo of a forest fire. It's in the computation. Or it isn't anywhere.

Respectfully,
Myriad
 
Why is happy in quotes?

To emphasize the fact that the term "happy" is very muddy and complex -- kind of like "consciousness."

We all know what "happy" is, right, but think about how hard it would be for you to describe "happy" to an alien. It is something that is almost inextricable from the human condition to begin with. You only understand it because you have learned to associate that term with a certain emotional state in yourself.

Contrast this with terms that are more clear -- like "clear." You could explain what "clear" means to an alien pretty easily.
 
To emphasize the fact that the term "happy" is very muddy and complex -- kind of like "consciousness."

We all know what "happy" is, right, but think about how hard it would be for you to describe "happy" to an alien. It is something that is almost inextricable from the human condition to begin with. You only understand it because you have learned to associate that term with a certain emotional state in yourself.

Contrast this with terms that are more clear -- like "clear." You could explain what "clear" means to an alien pretty easily.

Did you forget which side you're on? Things that are "very muddy and complex" generally have not been "fully explained".

And are you now saying that Mary (from Mary's Room) wouldn't understand color until she experiences it?
 
The system depicted in the XKCD comic is based on cellular automaton rule 110, which has been proven "universal" aka Turing-complete. (Cellular automaton rule 34 has uninteresting behavior.)

A cellular automaton, though, updates all cells simultaneously, while our stick figure is going one cell at a time. So the system as "implemented" is more like a simple Turing machine that executes the equivalent of rule 110 as its head scans back and forth along the tape. Such a Turing machine is easily constructed (see NKS page 665 for examples for two other cellular automaton rules).

Leaving the pattern behind (that is, creating a new row with each pass instead of just modifying a single row over and over again) is unnecessary for the computation. Given that the desert has sufficient dimensions to allow for it, I suppose there's no reason not to, but the continued existence of those earlier rows doesn't affect anything or mean anything. It would work just as well if he were limited to one row in an infinite hallway or, perhaps, moving hats between the upper and lower pegs of an infinitely long hat rack. (Moving the rocks on the ground requires so much bending over...)

If the computation using rocks in the desert includes generating conscious beings, then the ongoing computation is the substrate (probably the deepest of multiple layers of computational substrate) for that consciousness. The pattern left behind, by contrast, is just a big bitmap of dumb rocks.

That the pattern is not the same as the process, can be obscured by mistakenly assuming equivalences that apply in mathematics but not in computing.

In mathematics, the expression "2^10" is generally regarded as completely equivalent to the expression "1024." Nothing mathematical is actually gained or learned by doing the multiplication, or by any deterministic computation. For instance, generating a detailed image of a portion of a zoomed in Mandelbrot Set does not create or reveal anything that wasn't already implicit in the equations that define the set.

But computing isn't mathematics. Computing isn't anything until it happens. You don't have 1024 from 2^10 until you multiply it out. You don't actually know what the Mandelbrot set looks like until you do the computing to generate the image.

Mathematical proofs about computing can be created without actually doing the computations described in the proofs, but that's mathematics not computing. On the other hand, the computing required in the course of doing mathematics must be done in order to count. Proofs, for instance, must actually be found and enumerated -- that's a form of computation -- and not merely claimed to exist implicitly in the axioms of a system.

The close relationship between mathematics and computing generates understandable confusion. But implicit-ness applies only in mathematics. In mathematics the ten billionth digit of pi exists implicitly; in computing it exists when you've done the work to figure out what it is. Minesweeper as the title of a piece of software is implicit in the patterns of bits on my hard drive when my computer is off, but Minesweeper as an actual game event doesn't happen unless the program is running.

So if consciousness is a phenomenon of computation, it does not follow that a string of symbols specifying a computation can be conscious. That attempted reductio ad absurdum fails. That something can become conscious does not imply that it is conscious, any more than than a tree is a chest of drawers because under the right circumstances it can become a chest of drawers.

Perhaps the pattern of a meteor shower or the expansion of pi can generate strings of digits which could generate consciousness if used as the input of a suitable computation. That doesn't mean anything unless that computation actually happens. If it does not happen, then there is no consciousness.

And the proposition that "everything is computation, so therefore every possible computation must occur" cannot rescue the notion. Not only does the conclusion not follow from the premise, but the premise itself at best (that is, if it's even true) equivocates the meaning of "computation." Not all computation is universal, and universality is a rather low bar to set if we want to specify computation that is capable of interesting and complex phenomena such as consciousness. At present only certain systems have been proved capable of universal computation. Generally, all such systems, despite their enormous diversity, have certain characteristics in common. Most notably, persistent but changeable local state information.

Some systems (Wolfram calls them Class 1) do not preserve any state information. A puff of smoke just dissipates and disappears, reaching the same end state regardless of the initial shape of the puff. Some systems (Wolfram calls them Class 2) preserve state information but do not permit them to change, except perhaps in a repeating pattern that doesn't compute anything new. That's your rock. Some systems (Wolfram calls them Class 3) internally propagate state information indiscriminately so that the state of any part quickly (at some internal propagation speed) affects the state of all other parts, with no possibility of preserving information for the time it takes to access it. These systems generate randomness. That's your bowl of soup.

All known universal computers are Class 4, for which internal information propagation is locally contingent on state. Turing machines have a tape that remains unchanged except for the location where the head currently is; Class 4 cellular automata have fixed or moving local structures that persist until they interact with other local structures they come in contact with; conventional computers have memory and registers; neural networks have synapse weightings; genetic systems have populations of genomes; formal systems have strings of symbols and rules governing which parts of a string can be changed at any given point.

(Wolfram proposes that Class 3 systems are also capable of universal computation. I think he's wrong about that.)

So, where do you look for the consciousness that we're pretty sure does exist, in our own selves? Somewhere in the brain, but where? In the ion channels? In the map of neural connections or the matrix of their coefficients? That's like looking for the heat in the pixels of a digital photo of a forest fire. It's in the computation. Or it isn't anywhere.

Respectfully,
Myriad

Nice post
 
The entire pattern of rocks (strictly infinite in extent) is not a snapshot of a single moment but in fact the full history of the entire computation. A single row of rocks (representing another "step" in the processing) would be more like a snapshot of the "universe" at some point. In other words there are multiple conscious beings, plus dinosaurs, and the moons of Jupiter (plus quite a bit of other stuff) all being simulated in that pattern when viewed in it's entirety!

The point I was trying to raise (which was possibly also missed by PixyMisa in an earlier reply to my first post) was that a static pattern like that (of rocks in this case) can still be interpreted as a complete simulation. Or do you think that something actually has to be in the process of placing more rocks for the simulation to actually be considered to be "running"?

The rock pattern universe is close to being a reductio ad absurdum for the simulation concept. There's no reason to suppose that placing four rocks in a row creates a sixteen state universe. They're just rocks. There's no other world. No matter how many rocks, how complex the pattern, there are no invisible people living in the rocks.
 
The rock pattern universe is close to being a reductio ad absurdum for the simulation concept. There's no reason to suppose that placing four rocks in a row creates a sixteen state universe. They're just rocks. There's no other world. No matter how many rocks, how complex the pattern, there are no invisible people living in the rocks.

This reminds me how absurd another thread became, where it was claimed by computationalists that enough people writing enough 1's and 0's on paper could produce consciousness.
 
Did you forget which side you're on? Things that are "very muddy and complex" generally have not been "fully explained".

No, it just means that such things require juggling a heck of a lot of information at the same time to really understand them.

And that is literally impossible to do consciously -- you need to internalize all the requisite information to the point where it is intuitive. Only then do you actually understand in full.

For example, I could try to explain to you how any single function in DirectX or OpenGL works. You couldn't even hope to genuinely understand the whole explanation until you have studied, used, and perhaps even written your own, 3D graphics engine and furthermore worked with DirectX or OpenGL.

But once you reach that point, then all sorts of things make sense intuitively -- "ah, of course, this is because they use left handed instead of right handed coordinates, ah of course, this is because of the way they handle vertex buffering and streams," etc.

In particular, to try to explain what "happy" means in an objective fashion is a very non-trivial exercise.

But it can be done.

And are you now saying that Mary (from Mary's Room) wouldn't understand color until she experiences it?

She would not fully understand what it is like to experience color until she experiences color herself. A tautology.

Nobody on the computational side has ever claimed otherwise.
 
Leaving the pattern behind (that is, creating a new row with each pass instead of just modifying a single row over and over again) is unnecessary for the computation. Given that the desert has sufficient dimensions to allow for it, I suppose there's no reason not to, but the continued existence of those earlier rows doesn't affect anything or mean anything. It would work just as well if he were limited to one row in an infinite hallway or, perhaps, moving hats between the upper and lower pegs of an infinitely long hat rack. (Moving the rocks on the ground requires so much bending over...)
Yup.

If the computation using rocks in the desert includes generating conscious beings, then the ongoing computation is the substrate (probably the deepest of multiple layers of computational substrate) for that consciousness. The pattern left behind, by contrast, is just a big bitmap of dumb rocks.
Yup.

That the pattern is not the same as the process, can be obscured by mistakenly assuming equivalences that apply in mathematics but not in computing.
YUP!

So if consciousness is a phenomenon of computation, it does not follow that a string of symbols specifying a computation can be conscious. That attempted reductio ad absurdum fails.
Yup.

Yup ;)

So, where do you look for the consciousness that we're pretty sure does exist, in our own selves? Somewhere in the brain, but where? In the ion channels? In the map of neural connections or the matrix of their coefficients? That's like looking for the heat in the pixels of a digital photo of a forest fire. It's in the computation. Or it isn't anywhere.
Yup.

I would have just done 'WHS!', but someone missed a stone somewhere...
 
rocketdodger said:
Did you forget which side you're on? Things that are "very muddy and complex" generally have not been "fully explained".

No, it just means that such things require juggling a heck of a lot of information at the same time to really understand them.

And that is literally impossible to do consciously -- you need to internalize all the requisite information to the point where it is intuitive. Only then do you actually understand in full.

For example, I could try to explain to you how any single function in DirectX or OpenGL works. You couldn't even hope to genuinely understand the whole explanation until you have studied, used, and perhaps even written your own, 3D graphics engine and furthermore worked with DirectX or OpenGL.

But once you reach that point, then all sorts of things make sense intuitively -- "ah, of course, this is because they use left handed instead of right handed coordinates, ah of course, this is because of the way they handle vertex buffering and streams," etc.

In particular, to try to explain what "happy" means in an objective fashion is a very non-trivial exercise.

But it can be done.

And are you now saying that Mary (from Mary's Room) wouldn't understand color until she experiences it?

She would not fully understand what it is like to experience color until she experiences color herself. A tautology.

Not a tautology at all. "Not fully understand" is equivalent to "lacking information". That means Mary acuires new information just by experiencing color. Bravo for you! I knew you would come around to qualia sooner or later :)

Nobody on the computational side has ever claimed otherwise.

So the computationalist position is that Mary learns something new from the subjective experience of seeing color? I think that would be news to some of the computationalists here ;)
 
So the computationalist position is that Mary learns something new from the subjective experience of seeing color? I think that would be news to some of the computationalists here
No, the computationalist position is that the entire Mary's Room argument is logically invalid in at least two different ways. At least two.
 
Sure.

Basically, the argument states that Mary knows everything there is to know about the perception of colour, but has never seen colour. Under any sort of materialist metaphysics, that would mean that Mary knows what it's like to see colour. But the argument then asserts that when Mary sees colour for the first time, she learns something new. Under materialism; that's a contradiction. If you assume immaterialism, the argument is circular. If you say that Mary simply knew everything that it's possible to learn about colour without seeing it, it's equivocation.

So no matter which way you turn it, the argument is invalid.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom