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Ron Paul activist gets sick; suddenly socialized medicine doesn't look so bad

Why are you incapable of having an honest discussion?? Those were not my "solutions". I am well aware of the serious problems associated with high health costs. I don't consider being homeless or dead "solutions". Again, why can't we discuss alternatives to healthcare that don't involve the government? My questions in my last post weren't discussed. I think those questions are valid.

I may have missed them, but which proposals that don’t involve government are you suggesting we discuss?

I take your point that in order to critique a system it is not necessary to have an alternative, but the discussion doesn’t go very far without any.

The proponents of government regulation of healthcare provision/ insurance can’t think of any equally good system as ones involving government intervention – which is why they support government intervention. They, by and large, see it as the least bad option- not necessarily perfect.

If you wish to have discussion with people who believe that government intervention is the only humane, equitable or reliable system for regulating the provision of healthcare then to persuade them otherwise you need to show any non-government solution which would be at least as good, if not better.

Tort reform is
a) A form of government intervention
b) Unlikely to reduce health costs to the point at which treatment for many serious (life threatening) and/ or long term illnesses are likely to be so expensive as to force the majority of people who get them to become bankrupt.
 
Thread title should be changed to:

Young snot nosed kid thinks he's a libertarian because he doesn't want to pay for health care because he's too young to get sick UNTIL he gets sick and then young snot nosed kid becomes a socialist because of his own immediate self-interest.

We have a winner.
 
I did want to clarify the FSA/HSA thing...

The reason why an FSA is a "use-it-or-lose-it" set-up is because the funds that you plan on putting into it are available to you right away, even if you haven't paid in that amount yet. For example, you know that you will be having laser eye correction surgery in July. It will cost you $1500. When July comes, and you've only paid in $775, you still have the whole $1500 available to you to pay your bill. Now let's say you quit that job in August. You don't have to pay that money back. The reason why your employer takes this risk is because they know that even though a few will use those funds without paying in what they actually used, even more people will pay in more than what they use. It's the employer and not the government that gets to keep the cash.

FSA's are great if you know that you will spend money on healthcare. You're getting your eyes fixed, you're getting "fixed", kids need braces, you will giving birth, you have a medical condition that requires a monthly prescription. FSAs are NOT good if you have no known costs that year.

With an HSA, however, you cannot claim more than what you have put in. If you have dental surgery in Feb and need $2000 but have only paid in $250, you only have $250 to use toward your bill. But, an HSA stays with you, even after you cease using a qualifying health plan. You even have the option of rolling those funds into a retirement account.
 
Why are you incapable of having an honest discussion?? Those were not my "solutions". I am well aware of the serious problems associated with high health costs. I don't consider being homeless or dead "solutions". Again, why can't we discuss alternatives to healthcare that don't involve the government? My questions in my last post weren't discussed. I think those questions are valid.

We are having an honest discussion. You're the one who started off by accusing me of making up numbers (which you still haven't apologized for). Then, when I ask you how to handle the vast number of people who simply get slammed by an unexpected health crisis, like my friend, you suggest bankruptcy or becoming a cause celebre. Now, you may have been joking, but that only underscores the paucity of "alternatives to government subsidized healthcare".

The problems with that system have been clearly outlined. Medical bankruptcies, conditions going undiagnosed because of the lack of preventative care, and adverse selection, which causes all of our premiums to go up in a death spiral. Instead of asking me to discuss some alternatives, it's up to you to present those ideas so that they can be assessed.

This is why libertarians are sometimes mocked as "glibertarians". It's because when asked for alternatives, it's either glib hand waving or cries of "FREEDOM!"
 
The problem with health savings accounts and the like are that they aren't insurance. Insurance is where you enter a business relationship with a company--you pay them money periodically, and they assume the risk that you may get sick and require treatment and then they'll pay for it, even if it's more than you paid them. HSA is "self-insurance", which is to say "no insurance"--you're not transferring the risk, you're keeping it. The advantage is that you don't pay if you don't get sick. The disadvantage is that if you do get sick, you can only pay what you have saved up. So ultimately, unless you are very wealthy or very healthy, you are running the risk of being stuck both ill and poor at the same time. It's a gamble and the stakes are your life, your health, and all the wealth you have or hope to have in your lifetime. And if you have dependents they're going to feel any disasters too.
 
The problem with health savings accounts and the like are that they aren't insurance. Insurance is where you enter a business relationship with a company--you pay them money periodically, and they assume the risk that you may get sick and require treatment and then they'll pay for it, even if it's more than you paid them. HSA is "self-insurance", which is to say "no insurance"--you're not transferring the risk, you're keeping it. The advantage is that you don't pay if you don't get sick. The disadvantage is that if you do get sick, you can only pay what you have saved up. So ultimately, unless you are very wealthy or very healthy, you are running the risk of being stuck both ill and poor at the same time. It's a gamble and the stakes are your life, your health, and all the wealth you have or hope to have in your lifetime. And if you have dependents they're going to feel any disasters too.

Which, contrasted with a single payer system, or even an insurance mandated system, has everyone paying into an insurance pool, either through premiums or taxes. You "lose" the premiums or taxes, but if you get sick, you don't go bankrupt. You can see a doctor regularly (of course in Canada or the UK, it's totally free to see your doctor), and catch problems earlier.

The risk is spread out, access is guaranteed, and the outcomes are better. And no one ever goes broke or bankrupt because they get sick.
 
Which, contrasted with a single payer system, or even an insurance mandated system, has everyone paying into an insurance pool, either through premiums or taxes. You "lose" the premiums or taxes, but if you get sick, you don't go bankrupt. You can see a doctor regularly (of course in Canada or the UK, it's totally free to see your doctor), and catch problems earlier.

The risk is spread out, access is guaranteed, and the outcomes are better. And no one ever goes broke or bankrupt because they get sick.

Exactly. That's why my proposed solution is to simply do away with insurance entirely, and simply use tax money to pay for everybody's healthcare. That way we save by paying only for illnesses that actually occur, and by cutting out the middlemen making profits off the risk. And the citizens benefit because they have transferred the risk--they know they'll be taken care of in case of illness. If they're willing to pay a profit-centric business to accept the risk, a private company whose motivation is to avoid paying out, then surely they'd be willing to simply pay that money in taxes instead in return for the guarantee that care will be provided, and not fought. They should actually wind up paying less because the goverment won't be making a profit, they'll just need to cover actual operating costs.

But that's evil socialism, etc, etc, so it will never happen here. We'd rather die homeless in the gutters for the right to pay Anthem Blue Cross $400 a month in exchange for a refusal to cover our illnesses than pay the government $300 a month in taxes for universal health care.
 
Exactly. That's why my proposed solution is to simply do away with insurance entirely, and simply use tax money to pay for everybody's healthcare...

Which, for the benefit of those not yet up to speed, is how the rest of the civilised world already provides healthcare.

TM, you obviously have a better insight into this than I do, working in the health industry in the US - why are so many Americans persuaded not only to vote for but to fervently, passionately support to the point of street protest a system that is at once more expensive and less effective than the alternatives? I don't get why Americans so loudly advocate against their best interests in this arena...
 
Which, for the benefit of those not yet up to speed, is how the rest of the civilised world already provides healthcare.

TM, you obviously have a better insight into this than I do, working in the health industry in the US - why are so many Americans persuaded not only to vote for but to fervently, passionately support to the point of street protest a system that is at once more expensive and less effective than the alternatives? I don't get why Americans so loudly advocate against their best interests in this arena...

Far be it from me to suggest that most people are stupid.

I really think it's because people don't anticipate getting truly sick themselves. Most people imagine that it won't happen to them. The people who need the most healthcare are the ones who already have socialized medicine, and they're also the ones who vote the most and are actually a more sizeable chunk of the population than the succeeding generation. Old people. They outnumber us, and they got theirs. The situation won't change until they die off, or see enough of their own children and grandchildren ruined to change their minds.
 
The problem with health savings accounts and the like are that they aren't insurance. Insurance is where you enter a business relationship with a company--you pay them money periodically, and they assume the risk that you may get sick and require treatment and then they'll pay for it, even if it's more than you paid them. HSA is "self-insurance", which is to say "no insurance"--you're not transferring the risk, you're keeping it. The advantage is that you don't pay if you don't get sick. The disadvantage is that if you do get sick, you can only pay what you have saved up. So ultimately, unless you are very wealthy or very healthy, you are running the risk of being stuck both ill and poor at the same time. It's a gamble and the stakes are your life, your health, and all the wealth you have or hope to have in your lifetime. And if you have dependents they're going to feel any disasters too.

The purpose of an HSA is to save the money needed to cover your deductible in a high deductible plan in a pretax account. There is a limit to the amount you can contribute per year, I think its around $6000. (Its like an IRA, but you can withdraw with no tax or penalty for approved expenses). It is not, in employer sponsored plans, used to pay the insurance premium. I have a high deductible plan and I also have an HSA. I put enough in my HSA to cover the deductible for the year, and some more to cover all other IRS approved health care expenses. When I hit my deductible, if I do, the employer plan pays the rest of my care for the year. My employer happens to be self insured, so they are paying employee medical expenses out of their operating budget, and only paying Anthem a fee for managing the program. There is no way that an HSA is meant for people to cover their whole health care bill.

I guess this would be another bone for some to pick. If you feel that people contributing to an HSA instead of paying insurance premiums is wrong (even though that's not how it works), how do you feel about self insured companies? My company pays for the health care for 1500 employees plus families. I believe they said its about 6000 people. So now we have 1500 families that are not paying into the national insurance pool. Issues with that too?
 
back to the OP (sort of)

conservative Maryland doctor who was elected to Congress this month after running against President Obama's health care overhaul raised some eyebrows on Capitol Hill Monday by inquiring about the status of his own government-provided health care, Politico reports.

Republican Andy Harris of Maryland's first congressional district was surprised to learn during yesterday's freshman orientation that he would not receive his government-subsidized health care coverage until Feb. 1, a month after he is sworn into office.

"He stood up and asked the two ladies who were answering questions why it had to take so long, what he would do without 28 days of health care," a congressional staffer told Politico.

According to Harris' spokesperson Anna Nix, Harris was pointing out the inefficiency of government-run health care. Nix said Harris said that "This is the only employer I've ever worked for where you don't get coverage the first day you are employed."

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20022969-503544.html

Cry me a river. What a maroon.
 
The purpose of an HSA is to save the money needed to cover your deductible in a high deductible plan in a pretax account. There is a limit to the amount you can contribute per year, I think its around $6000. (Its like an IRA, but you can withdraw with no tax or penalty for approved expenses). It is not, in employer sponsored plans, used to pay the insurance premium. I have a high deductible plan and I also have an HSA. I put enough in my HSA to cover the deductible for the year, and some more to cover all other IRS approved health care expenses. When I hit my deductible, if I do, the employer plan pays the rest of my care for the year. My employer happens to be self insured, so they are paying employee medical expenses out of their operating budget, and only paying Anthem a fee for managing the program. There is no way that an HSA is meant for people to cover their whole health care bill.

Oh. I have difficulty imagining many people make enough money to pay both insurance premiums and save money in a special account. I guess it's good to have that if you can do it, but I don't believe enough people have either the option or if they have the option, have the money to make use of it.


I guess this would be another bone for some to pick. If you feel that people contributing to an HSA instead of paying insurance premiums is wrong (even though that's not how it works), how do you feel about self insured companies? My company pays for the health care for 1500 employees plus families. I believe they said its about 6000 people. So now we have 1500 families that are not paying into the national insurance pool. Issues with that too?

Self-insured companies are accepting risk. I would question the wisdom of accepting that kind of risk on the part of any except the extremely rich companies with plenty of cash on hand to meet disaster.

Let me put it this way: insurance companies themselves do not accept the risk of insurance--that's why they invented reinsurance, and pool their own risks between themselves. The commonalities between people in the pool are the dangerous points, the point where disaster can affect the entire pool. Best example is geography. You insure 10,000 people in Hawaii. That's a nice big pool, they're not all likely to come down with cancer on the same day, your risks are looking good...until the volcano blows and most of the insured are burned by lava, breath in smoke and ash, etc etc. 6,000 of your insured are in the hospital receiving treatment. The geographic commonality between all members of your pool meant they were all open to the same risk this time. You now have to pay out for too many claims at once. Insolvency, collapse. Unless you reinsured, and pooled your own pool with the pools of other companies.

But a self-insured company runs the risk themselves, and will have greater commonalities between its insured than would normally be the case. For starters, they all have the same employer. They may all work in the same location. They may all have very similar occupations. That's three commonalities between them right there, and any risk that affects one of those dimensions (say, a building blows up) will necessarily affect a wider section of your pool than would be the case otherwise. Suppose your company operates out of four locations, and one of them turns out to have asbestos in it, or fall over in an earthquake? Your company now has to pay out all the health claims, plus pay for repairs, plus deal with the lost revenue from the interruption of business...and if the damage is so great the company goes under, then who pays the medical claims?

Self-insurance is a hell of a risk. Only the hugest companies, with many distant locations should even consider it, in my opinion. But then I'm risk-averse by nature, and don't believe in gambling when the stakes are that high.
 
Which, for the benefit of those not yet up to speed, is how the rest of the civilised world already provides healthcare.
The Netherlands is not civilised? Germany is not civilised? France is not civilised?

More than one wasy to skin a cat.
 
Yes, his employer/employee experience as an M.D. is typical of his constituents', and a sound set of assumptions to govern on.

Daredelvis

My last employer required a three month wait before an employee was eligible for company partially subsidized health insurance. The three month wait was only for lower-level employees though, which I thought was incredibly backwards... Upper-level employees had health insurance the day they walked through the door.
 
My last employer required a three month wait before an employee was eligible for company partially subsidized health insurance. The three month wait was only for lower-level employees though, which I thought was incredibly backwards... Upper-level employees had health insurance the day they walked through the door.

I think that's because it's a recruiting point. The higher you go, the more in demand you are, and the more of a compensation package you can command.

And if I were a company trying to hire some hotshot executive something, I'd definitely prefer to go ahead and waive the 3 month wait period on benefits in lieu of actually paying them more money. People are generally lazy and won't want to bother pricing private insurance for a 3 month period, they might actually think it's a good deal to get insurance on the first day rather than just ask for more money.
 
30 days is a common rule.

Although at my curent job, I was covered from day one, my family was not untill I had the paperwork in.
 
Most of my jobs (that had benefits at all) it's been 3 months wait until benefits kick in. Except 401k, then they seem to like you to wait until January, unless that January's in the first 3 months in which case they make you wait til the next January.
 

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