Birthright Citizenship

[Thunder]

Does anyone seriously think it is a good idea to go down this path?

I am proud and more than happy, to have my tax dollars spent on American citizens, Permanent Residents, and folks with Work Visas or other legal alien status.

I don't want one penny, not one dime of my tax dollars, helping illegals.

sorry. I don't want to give people an incentive to break our laws.

what do we do if an illegal is sick? treat him. and then when he is able to travel, we send him home. and we bill his country of origin for the medical fees.

.....funny, that I am a Social-Democrat and still hold such views.

 

[Alferd_Packer]

I am proud and more than happy, to have my tax dollars spent on American citizens, Permanent Residents, and folks with Work Visas or other legal alien status.

I don't want one penny, not one dime of my tax dollars, helping illegals.

sorry. I don't want to give people an incentive to break our laws.

what do we do if an illegal is sick? treat him. and then when he is able to travel, we send him home. and we bill his country of origin for the medical fees.

This is not about tax dollars, it is about basic human rights. If you take away equal protection under the law for illegal aliens, then next someone will propose the same restriction on legal aliens, then on families with one citizen and one non citizen spouse, then on citizens who are gay, or from Iran, or left handed. etc. This is the danger of this slippery slope.

 

[Thunder]

This is not about tax dollars, it is about basic human rights. If you take away equal protection under the law for illegal aliens, then next someone will propose the same restriction on legal aliens, then on families with one citizen and one non citizen spouse, then on citizens who are gay, or from Iran, or left handed. etc. This is the danger of this slippery slope.

no, this is just a big strawman.

 

[Alferd_Packer]

no, this is just a big strawman.

No it isn't it is the heart of the argument.

You can not take away the right to equal protection under the law for one subset of the population without endangering that right for the rest of the population.

 

[Grizzly Adams]

Illegal alien parents with citizen children are simply deported with child in hand.

Proof, please.

Please note that I am not demanding proof that they can be deported, I'm asking for proof that they are deported and removed.

And no, posting a link to one story won't cut it. I want statistics on how often illegal alien parents of US citizen children are removed, keeping in mind that "deported" is not the same as "removed" and that one can be ordered deported but not removed and granted de facto status as long as they don't leave the country.

 

[hgc]

This is not about tax dollars, it is about basic human rights. If you take away equal protection under the law for illegal aliens, then next someone will propose the same restriction on legal aliens, then on families with one citizen and one non citizen spouse, then on citizens who are gay, or from Iran, or left handed. etc. This is the danger of this slippery slope.

This touches a notion that has bothered me in a different context in recent years, having to do with the treatment of alleged terrorists apprehended by the US around the world in within our borders. Many, many people making arguments about this practice made special note that the protections provided us under the constitution are not to be extended to non-US citizens.

This is contrary to the plain text of the constitution, which expressly describes rights to hold public office and to vote as belonging to citizens, but ascribes almost all the other rights to "the people" and "persons." This is intentional, as the text and spirit of this document provides* these protections to all persons who come under the jurisdiction of US, and not just citizens.

I get the sense that many people would be perfectly happy with an immigrant worker underclass (which is reality already for the illegals), where the people that mow our lawns and pluck our chickens will have their children, growing up in our midst, going without schooling and without medicine, and that'd be their own damn problem.

The plain truth is that people come to this country illegally because there is a labor market here ready and willing to pay them, not to put their children in school.



*I say the constitution "provides" rights, but of course, that's only in the abstract. Rights only really exist when exercised regularly and predictably.

 

[Thunder]

No it isn't it is the heart of the argument.

You can not take away the right to equal protection under the law for one subset of the population without endangering that right for the rest of the population.

i will fight to the death, to defend the rights of ALL Americans.

illegal aliens are not Americans, and they should go home.

I will help them pay their way, but they should go home.

The USA is not the planet Earth. We are not responsible for the human and civil rights of all mankind. Its not our obligation to care for the whole population of the planet Earth. This is what some folks want from the USA.

 

[Ryokan]

Evidence? It is pretty much standard world wide the birth place of a child decides its citizenship - Only diplomatic staff and military forces are exempt - Military is by choice

I was surprised when I learned this was how it was in the US, that simply being born there grants you citizenship.

It certainly isn't true for Norway. Your parents' citizenship determines yours. I haven't heard of any other European country that is different. Are there really any European countries that grant citizenship to people simply for being born there?

 

[Ryokan]

I found this Wikipedia article that shows that this is pretty much unique to the Americas.

ETA: With Pakistan, Fiji, Cambodia and Lesotho as exceptions.

 

[Thunder]

It certainly isn't true for Norway. Your parents' citizenship determines yours. I haven't heard of any other European country that is different. Are there really any European countries that grant citizenship to people simply for being born there?

well, you see, America is special.

America is supposed to follow rules that no other major industrialized nation follows.

America is supposed to follow rules that other nations laugh at.

 

[daredelvis]

birthright citizenship should be only for folks who have at least one parent who is a citizen.

No it shouldn't.

the idea that a pregant woman can come to the USA for vacation, have her child here, the child becomes a citizen, and then the child can sponsor her/his mother, is insane.

No it isn't.

Daredelvis

 

[shecky]

i will fight to the death, to defend the rights of ALL Americans.

illegal aliens are not Americans, and they should go home.

I will help them pay their way, but they should go home.

The USA is not the planet Earth. We are not responsible for the human and civil rights of all mankind. Its not our obligation to care for the whole population of the planet Earth. This is what some folks want from the USA.

This is why illegal aliens should be declared legal. They can continue earning their living, you don't have to be bothered about deporting them.

The problem with immigration issue as addressed by the usual numbskulls is that illegal immigration is a crime that causes no actual harm to person or property, except for the incentives created by making it illegal. Restictionists advocate immigration restrictions for the sake of having restrictions, not for discouraging actual harm to person or property.

And of course, it is a pretty weak argument that birthright citizenship is actually a problem. Anchor babies seem to be a phantom threat.

And even more so, repealing the 14th Amendment is pretty much a non starter.

In short, nativists are in need of some much better arguments.

 

[shecky]

I'm willing to bet that MOST illegal immigrants do not come to the USA to survive. They want a better life, yes.

You say it like it's a bad thing. When did anyone ever come to America because things were so good in the Old Country? Seeking prosperity and migration is the story of America. And humanity.

Its funny how some leftists argue that Capitalist USA is a horrible, filthy, unfare place. And yet, they also argue that millions of immigrants come to the USA...to survive.

Contradiction there ay?

Talk about your straw man...

How 'bout this one? Some conservatives love holding up the United States as that shining beacon on the hill to set an example for the rest of the globe. Yet when it comes to those funny talkin' folks from south of the border, they insist that shining beacon take its cues on immigration from places like France!

 

[LordoftheLeftHand]

I am proud and more than happy, to have my tax dollars spent on American citizens, Permanent Residents, and folks with Work Visas or other legal alien status.

I don't want one penny, not one dime of my tax dollars, helping illegals.

sorry. I don't want to give people an incentive to break our laws.

what do we do if an illegal is sick? treat him. and then when he is able to travel, we send him home. and we bill his country of origin for the medical fees.

I think most people (myself included) are a little xenophobic, but .... well yours just seems a little over the top.

 

[Random]

Proof, please.

Please note that I am not demanding proof that they can be deported, I'm asking for proof that they are deported and removed.

And no, posting a link to one story won't cut it. I want statistics on how often illegal alien parents of US citizen children are removed, keeping in mind that "deported" is not the same as "removed" and that one can be ordered deported but not removed and granted de facto status as long as they don't leave the country.

Here and here. Its about 10,000 parents a year deported. Specific numbers are hard to figure out as ICE doesn't keep track of whether or not the people they are deporting have kids. Of course, its not true that we will deport the whole family. Sometimes we deport the parents and put the kid into foster care.

The "anchor baby" phenomenon that this birthright legislation is supposed to solve just doesn't exist.

 

[Guybrush Threepwood]

well, you see, America is special.

America is supposed to follow rules that no other major industrialized nation follows.

America is supposed to follow rules that other nations laugh at.

I thought it was that America had to follow the rules that Americans wrote in the American constitution (or at least the 14th amendment of it). And if they didn't like it, then Americans can change the rules in America by following the procedure to change the American constitution.

And the rest of the World doesn't give a crap what rules America wants to follow.

 

[Alferd_Packer]

Proof, please.

Please note that I am not demanding proof that they can be deported, I'm asking for proof that they are deported and removed.

And no, posting a link to one story won't cut it. I want statistics on how often illegal alien parents of US citizen children are removed, keeping in mind that "deported" is not the same as "removed" and that one can be ordered deported but not removed and granted de facto status as long as they don't leave the country.

Authorities have deported the legal immigrant parents of more than 88,000 U.S. citizen children in the last decade, according to a report released Wednesday.

http://articles.latimes.com/2010/apr/01/local/la-me-deport1-2010apr01

and this article

Congressman José E. Serrano released a study today showing that the Department of Homeland Security has deported more than 100,000 parents of children who are U.S. citizens. The report, which Serrano asked DHS to produce, also showed that this number could be higher if records were more complete. . . .

The DHS report said that between 1998 and 2007, the United States conducted 2,199,138 alien removals, and according to the data, 108,434 of those aliens were parents of U.S. citizen children. DHS was unable to produce all the data Serrano asked for, because it does not have adequate data. Serrano asked for information on when both parents were removed, length of time the immigrant parent had been in the country before removal, and how many of the citizen children stayed behind when one or both parents were deported.

The report*



*One interesting tidbit from the report, ICE stores information in a database written in COBOL! Holy 19th century, batman.

 

[Alferd_Packer]

i will fight to the death, to defend the rights of ALL Americans.

illegal aliens are not Americans, and they should go home.

I will help them pay their way, but they should go home.

The USA is not the planet Earth. We are not responsible for the human and civil rights of all mankind. Its not our obligation to care for the whole population of the planet Earth. This is what some folks want from the USA.

If a child is born in this country, then they are an American citzen, even if their parents are not.

Furthermore Equal protection under the law applies to ALL persons in the U.S. legal or not.

 

[Alferd_Packer]

I get the sense that many people would be perfectly happy with an immigrant worker underclass (which is reality already for the illegals), where the people that mow our lawns and pluck our chickens will have their children, growing up in our midst, going without schooling and without medicine, and that'd be their own damn problem.

You do get that sense, sometimes, don't you?

The fact is taking away birthright citzenship will do NOTHING to stop illegal imigration. All it does is punish a child for the crime of being born.

 

[Alferd_Packer]

Are there really any European countries that grant citizenship to people simply for being born there?

England and France were traditionally Jus Soli, but the modified some of the requirements a few years back. Not co-incidentally, this has coincided with the rise of poorer Muslim populations and greater ethnic tensions which have occasionally spilled into riots.

Germany traditionally was Jus sanguinis, but they have modified their laws to allow some Jus Soli.