"Not Ever" - A Campaign Against Blaming Rape Victims

[bookitty]

This started long ago at a 19 year old and a 16 year old. So what are you talking about? You knew this, you were participating in the thread

TB started in about his 22 year old father and 16 year old mother, that's how this age difference got inflated.

So you really think a 19 year old guy hangs around a 16 year old because he finds her fascinating and just wants to talk? That is dangerously naive.

I think that teenagers can be slightly more hormone-addled than adults, and that some of them (male and female) can be awkward when it comes to inter-personal relationships.

But what you are saying is that 19 year old guys only see girls as sex-partners. No, I don't believe that. If boys are like that at 19, they are like that at 30. Some are, most aren't.

 

[Furcifer]

I read from this that the only intention of your interaction with women is to get them into bed?

No I said, when I've been alone with women, at my home or theirs, it's always led to sex. By the time the relationship has got to the point where we are alone together at a home it's led to sex.

I had a female room mate, we were great friends, we lived together and it never led to sex. She was 9 years younger than me, and very attractive, but we were just friends.

I can't say the thought never crossed my mind, but we were friends and room mates so I thought of her more as a little sister. Fairly quickly any notion of sex faded.

Living together as room mates changes things obviously.

 

[Furcifer]

But what you are saying is that 19 year old guys only see girls as sex-partners. No, I don't believe that. If boys are like that at 19, they are like that at 30. Some are, most aren't.

I'm not arguing absolutes, I don't know why you're saying that.

For the most part it's true. If she's attractive almost dead certain.

 

[bookitty]

Wait.

So you think a guy is going to be alone with some girl he finds attractive and remember some campaign about there being no sexual overtones?

You really don't get the whole male female dynamic do you? I don't think it's physically possible, short of castration, to stop a man from thinking about sex when he's alone with a woman he finds attractive. If he's attracted there will be sexual overtones. Violence is a whole other matter, I'm shocked than anyone would conflate the two.

Who cares what he thinks? Everybody has stuff in their head that they wouldn't necessary want to write up and post on their refrigerator. However, most men know that if sexual attraction is unwanted, or if sexual overtones will make the situation uncomfortable, to not act on it.

 

[bookitty]

I'm not arguing absolutes, I don't know why you're saying that.

For the most part it's true. If she's attractive almost dead certain.

Ok, so what you are saying is that MOST 19 year old guys only see girls as sex-partners. I still disagree. As I said before, if that is their attitude at 19, it will be their attitude at 30. Being a man, of any age, does not necessarily mean that you're a slavering wolf.

 

[BobTheDonkey]

Wait.

So you think a guy is going to be alone with some girl he finds attractive and remember some campaign about there being no sexual overtones?

You really don't get the whole male female dynamic do you? I don't think it's physically possible, short of castration, to stop a man from thinking about sex when he's alone with a woman he finds attractive. If he's attracted there will be sexual overtones. Violence is a whole other matter, I'm shocked than anyone would conflate the two.

It's surprising that men are able to do anything other than grunt and hunt with spears, ain't it?

 

[3point14]

I already said 19, you were the one that suggested any age was fine and dandy. Are you reading this thread or what

I believe you don't know what you're talking about anymore, you're just talking nonsense to argue.

I don't know if you're inexperienced or what, but generally speaking a 16 year old girl doesn't need 19 year old acquaintances to hang around alone with and drink or do drugs. And as a parent, if she's under 18 I'm not going to encourage it. That's the bottom line. And for good reason.

You tell me until you're blue in the face about all your wonderful friends, but if you showed up around my home with my 16 year old daughter you'd be answering to me. Or my 19 year old son if that were the case.

If she decided that she wanted to be alone with you, after I knew you, I'd allow it, but you'd be aware that if anything happened to her I work with boilers the size of a house, and they burn everything, including teeth. Capiche?

Crikey, but you're angry. Are you really that worried about your daughter's safety that you will make sure at all times that you know where she is, who she is with, what she is doing and how long she is going to be doing it?

I think there's a very real danger, given the level of protection you believe your daughter needs and given the overtly aggressive, even downright violent, way that you intend to force that protection on her, that, given the natural tendencies of teenagers to do want to wind their parents up, that she'll rebel and end up in far more dangerous situations than watching a film with another teenager.

I have mentioned before that there is advice to be given to young (and not so young) women that can help them avoid all sorts of assault, but the list can only really include things that are easy and not onerous. Walk on the outside of the street, don't get so drunk you can't see unless you're absolutely certain of your ground, don't take unlicensed cabs, keep your head up and your eyes open. This sort of thing, it applies to everyone really, but for women, as well as warding against robbery and assault, it will ward against rape. As soon as the action intrudes upon her daily life at any level higher than 'slightly annoying' then we're in danger of turning women into some sort of second class citizen ("No, my daughter, you can't go there, with those people." - "But dad, my brother could when he was my age!" - "But that's different because you're a girl...") I don't like the idea of that at all.

 

[3point14]

No I said, when I've been alone with women, at my home or theirs, it's always led to sex. By the time the relationship has got to the point where we are alone together at a home it's led to sex.

I had a female room mate, we were great friends, we lived together and it never led to sex. She was 9 years younger than me, and very attractive, but we were just friends.

I can't say the thought never crossed my mind, but we were friends and room mates so I thought of her more as a little sister. Fairly quickly any notion of sex faded.

Living together as room mates changes things obviously.

I really don't think you're doing a great PR job on my gender, dude.

Are your assumptions about other men are a reflection of your own attitudes towards women? Do you believe that no man can sit in a room with an attractive woman and not be planning on somehow having sex with them? Or do you, at least, think it's a rare occurrance for this to happen? I can only think that the reason you believe this is because it's what you see in yourself and your peers.

I have to tell you that it's not every man. Maybe it's every man but me and you'll have a pop at my age (again) or sexual prowess (again) because I tell you this. Or tell me that I'm lying to myself. Or that I'm lying to you. In all of these you would be mistaken.

Maybe it is every man but me, but I doubt it.

 

[Furcifer]

Should I not associate with them?

I really can't say I don't know you.

 

[3point14]

I really can't say I don't know you.

But if one of them were your daughter you would even now be making sure that not even my dentist could identify my body?

 

[bookitty]

I really don't think you're doing a great PR job on my gender, dude.

Are your assumptions about other men are a reflection of your own attitudes towards women? Do you believe that no man can sit in a room with an attractive woman and not be planning on somehow having sex with them? Or do you, at least, think it's a rare occurrance for this to happen? I can only think that the reason you believe this is because it's what you see in yourself and your peers.

I have to tell you that it's not every man. Maybe it's every man but me and you'll have a pop at my age (again) or sexual prowess (again) because I tell you this. Or tell me that I'm lying to myself. Or that I'm lying to you. In all of these you would be mistaken.

Maybe it is every man but me, but I doubt it.

I don't think it's you. There are men who make their immediate sexual attraction to women very obvious, regardless of whether or not it is returned or even appropriate. These men men are called creeps. Society recognizes them as an aberration. If acting on or displaying sexual attraction when it is unwanted was the norm, there would be no recognition of it. It would be normal.

 

[Furcifer]

However, most men know that if sexual attraction is unwanted, or if sexual overtones will make the situation uncomfortable, to not act on it.

I agree, I just don't see what your point is. We're talking about the ones that do act and when they do right?

 

[bookitty]

I agree, I just don't see what your point is. We're talking about the ones that do act and when they do right?

And you are saying that it is most men.

 

[AvalonXQ]

I don't think it's physically possible, short of castration, to stop a man from thinking about sex when he's alone with a woman he finds attractive.

Likewise, a woman is going to think about sex when she's alone with a man she finds attractive. That's pretty much the definition of "finds attractive".
But that's shifting goalposts from the previous assertion that the reason they hang out is sexual, or that sex is what he's aiming for in the relationship.

 

[Furcifer]

Ok, so what you are saying is that MOST 19 year old guys only see girls as sex-partners. I still disagree. As I said before, if that is their attitude at 19, it will be their attitude at 30. Being a man, of any age, does not necessarily mean that you're a slavering wolf.

No. I'm actually saying just about any male over the age of 19 see a 16 year old girl they are alone with, possibly drinking with as sex partners.

That's a sliding scale, and obviously as both men and women age that dynamic changes.

How many times do I need to repeat this?

 

[Uncayimmy]

There is a big difference between being raped by someone you know and not being in an obviously dangerous situation. I don't know what the stats are for the latter. But even if we accept that it doesn't mean that you shouldn't warn women about dangerous situations and how to avoid them because, despite what you say, I still hear about rapes being commited on women in obviously dangerous situations.

We went through this in the Schroedinger's Rapist thread. The majority of rapes are committed by current or former intimate partners. The number committed by acquaintances was about the same as those by strangers (if I recall correctly). Most rapes are non-violent in terms of injuries inflicted (excluding the act of penetration itself). One interesting statistic was that women who were raped as minors were twice as likely to be raped again as adults, which suggests there is something that these women are doing or not doing that affects being chosen as a target.

Another issue is just how many women are victims of multiple incidents of violence.

http://www.broken-rainbow.org.uk/research/Dv crime survey.pdf
Inter-personal violence is frequently marked by very high rates of repeat victimisation, where the same person is subject to multiple incidents of the same type of event. Table 2.5 shows that two-thirds of female victims of non-sexual domestic violence (threats or force) and half the victims of sexual assault had experienced more than one incident in the last year. Some had experienced very high numbers of incidents: when domestic violence is defined as nonsexual threats and force, the average (mean) number of incidents per woman was nearly 20 in the previous year, and, if the definition is restricted to non-sexual force, just over 16. However, this (mean) average figure is affected by the fact that a small number of respondents suffered very high numbers of incidents. The median number of incidents experienced by victims was four and three respectively. On average, male victims had experienced fewer incidents than women: the mean number of incidents of both domestic threats and domestic force was seven (median = 2). Nearly half of male victims had experienced just one incident of domestic violence in the past year compared to under a third of female victims.

So, why are some women victimized multiple times while others are not victimized at all? We'd need a strong statistical analysis to figure out if the numbers are random or not. The problem is that whenever it's suggested that a woman's behavior may be a factor in her becoming a victim, it's met with cries of blaming the victim.

 

[bookitty]

We went through this in the Schroedinger's Rapist thread. The majority of rapes are committed by current or former intimate partners. The number committed by acquaintances was about the same as those by strangers (if I recall correctly). Most rapes are non-violent in terms of injuries inflicted (excluding the act of penetration itself). One interesting statistic was that women who were raped as minors were twice as likely to be raped again as adults, which suggests there is something that these women are doing or not doing that affects being chosen as a target.

Another issue is just how many women are victims of multiple incidents of violence.



So, why are some women victimized multiple times while others are not victimized at all? We'd need a strong statistical analysis to figure out if the numbers are random or not. The problem is that whenever it's suggested that a woman's behavior may be a factor in her becoming a victim, it's met with cries of blaming the victim.

We're back to page three. Hurray.

 

[chillzero]

Wait.

So you think a guy is going to be alone with some girl he finds attractive and remember some campaign about there being no sexual overtones?

Well, firstly, it is possible for guys to spend time alone with women and not find them sexually attractive.
Secondly, it is possible for guys to spend time alone with women who they do find sexually attractive and not feel that this attraction entitles them to sex.
Thirdly, I was talking about education in general .. I realise now that in this thread that probably took a different context than I intended, but you are discussing how you ... umm ... 'educate' your daughter and those she may wish to spend time with. I think you would do better not to perpetuate this myth that all men are potential rapists with whom no woman can be left alone and defenseless in case he finds her attractive.

It really speaks poorly of your own impulse control, and your gender, as I pointed out earlier. Luckily, I know plenty of men that can spend time with women - even alone - even those they find attractive, and not pose the slightest threat to those women. You don't all just think with your dicks, you know.

You really don't get the whole male female dynamic do you?

'Cos I'm ... what .... gender-neutral?

I don't think it's physically possible, short of castration, to stop a man from thinking about sex when he's alone with a woman he finds attractive. If he's attracted there will be sexual overtones.

Wow. That's really sad.

Violence is a whole other matter, I'm shocked than anyone would conflate the two.

Well, we are in a thread about rape.

It's surprising that men are able to do anything other than grunt and hunt with spears, ain't it?

Even with the joke, it's really sad to see any man believe this about his gender.

 

[Furcifer]

I really don't think you're doing a great PR job on my gender, dude.

I doubt if it's gender related, but it's because you can't read.

Do you believe that no man can sit in a room with an attractive woman and not be planning on somehow having sex with them?

What do you mean by planning?

Or do you, at least, think it's a rare occurrance for this to happen? I can only think that the reason you believe this is because it's what you see in yourself and your peers.

What's a rare occurrence? Men and women alone together having sex? Possibly in your world, not mine.

I have to tell you that it's not every man.

Who said every man? Where did I say that? See you can't read, this is your problem. I told you so.

Don't worry, it's not your fault. Whenever someone is losing the debate they make these ridiculous claims. It's a strawman and you've been told this. Please, stop.

 

[Furcifer]

And you are saying that it is most men.

"It is most men" what? Could you clarify, you've lost me.