Everyone has a degree. Good or bad?

[I Ratant]

I've had an independent observer mention he had noticed the difference in the work output of a degreed engineer and one who had risen to the job level through experience, no degree.
He said the degreed output was more impressive.
I worked with the people he was talking about, and yes, the experienced guys were good nuts and bolts people, very capable, but the degreed guys would be better in making the decisions as to which nuts and bolts needed attention.

 

[drkitten]

By your insinuation that the rarity makes it valuable, it implies that the 120+ credit hours behind the degree are worthless.

No but it does imply that the worth isn't particularly economic.

Which, I think, is largely true.

Consider literacy (in modern American society); what's the economic value of being able to read? Almost nil, precisely because everyone has that skill, so no employer is going to pay you particularly well simply for being literate.

Of course, the social benefit of being literate is tremendous; it gives you, personally, access to a huge amount of stuff you couldn't otherwise get, and it gives society in general a way of distributing important information to everyone quickly, easily, and cheaply.

 

[brenn]

By your insinuation that the rarity makes it valuable, it implies that the 120+ credit hours behind the degree are worthless.

Surely there is at least some worth given by the fact that a student passed all those courses. And even more so if they can show that they passed them with good grades.

On a caveat, I know how shallow job interviews are, so there's that.

PS. Those C average doctors and engineers can still get them jobs flipping burgers. I don't want them operating on me or fixing my airplanes anyways.

So you overlooked the aprt about ditch diggers, the drive-through girl at McDonalds and the guy on the back of the garbage truck all having these degrees. Since everybody has one, it takes about 5 seconds of consideration to realize they are economically worthless.

 

[Captain.Sassy]

To the extent that more educated workers are more productive workers, you would get greater output and therefore probably higher real wages if everyone were well educated. But your ability to command a wage premium based on having a degree would be nil.

 

[Garrison0fMars]

No reason for everyone to have an advanced degree, but it should be available for anyone who does want/able minded enough to get it. That's my two cents...

 

[I Ratant]

No reason for everyone to have an advanced degree, but it should be available for anyone who does want/able minded enough to get it. That's my two cents...

.
I know three new graduates from the local 1-year university.
One has a job, the others are layabouts.

 

[Garrison0fMars]

.
I know three new graduates from the local 1-year university.
One has a job, the others are layabouts.

One year university? I don't think I've heard of that before.

Not sure what your point is though about the "layabouts"?

 

[I Ratant]

Could be two years.
The working graduate got a job at a bank.
One of the layabouts plays Farmville 24/7. His degree as a cook... doesn't even look for a job.
The other got a degree as a Paralegal. As a convicted felon, the local law guys won't hire him. Spends a lot of time drunk and leaching off friends.

 

[lionking]

Could be two years.
The working graduate got a job at a bank.
One of the layabouts plays Farmville 24/7. His degree as a cook... doesn't even look for a job.
The other got a degree as a Paralegal. As a convicted felon, the local law guys won't hire him. Spends a lot of time drunk and leaching off friends.

A qualification as a cook is not what would be called a degree, at least in most parts of the world. It's a vocational qualification, and very worthwhile, but you are comparing apples with oranges here.

 

[Foggy of the Fogbow]

Do they give a degree in "Idle Chatter"?

 

[I Ratant]

A qualification as a cook is not what would be called a degree, at least in most parts of the world. It's a vocational qualification, and very worthwhile, but you are comparing apples with oranges here.

.
Culinary art? Something like that. He is a good cook!
Trying to dry out right out, and having a rough at it.

 

[Roboramma]

Could be two years.
The working graduate got a job at a bank.
One of the layabouts plays Farmville 24/7. His degree as a cook... doesn't even look for a job.
The other got a degree as a Paralegal. As a convicted felon, the local law guys won't hire him. Spends a lot of time drunk and leaching off friends.

Are you suggesting anything with this, though?
Would they have been less likely to be "layabouts" without the extra schooling?

 

[novaphile]

I doubt your economic analysis...

I don't believe that the economic value of a degree is it's scarcity. I believe its value is the material that the graduate is exposed to, and the relevance of that material to the chosen profession.

I'm frequently in a position where I need to hire business analysts. Graduate business analysts are more likely to have the skills that I need them to have. From what I've seen in recent interviews, a relevant degree is approximately equivalent to about five years on the job experience.

Even if everyone in the world had a degree, there would still be a question of the relevance of that degree to the work at hand. My qualifications would be of little or no use to to employee plumber for example, but would be very useful to a plumber who is managing a plumbing business with 50 employees.

 

[Garrison0fMars]

Are you suggesting anything with this, though?
Would they have been less likely to be "layabouts" without the extra schooling?

Not only that, the latter doesn't even seem to be a "layabout", but someone who has an inescapable barrier of entry into his profession of choosing.

 

[drkitten]

I don't believe that the economic value of a degree is it's scarcity. I believe its value is the material that the graduate is exposed to, and the relevance of that material to the chosen profession.

Most of the value of the degree is unfortunately scarcity value. You can see that from the number of employers that merely require "a college degree," without reference to any specific field. As a simple example, to enlist in the (US) military as an officer requires a four-year degree, field not relevant. Obviously, the Army doesn't care what material you've been exposed to.

In practical terms, the college degree has become a politically and legally acceptable substitute for things like the old IQ test and various background requirements (I remember seeing some interesting ads from the 50s that demanded "varsity sports experience" for a job selling insurance or something like that). Varsity sports experience actually makes a certain amount of sense when you realize that it's a documentary proof of the fact that you are a "team player" (literally). (Well, until a gymnast or a weight lifter or other "individual" sport competitor applies.)

Basically, a college degree proves mastery of a certain field that is likely to be irrelevant for the majority of jobs people take. You can't really get a college degree in "sales," despite the fact jobs like insurance salesman and real estate broker are among the highest-employing positions in the United States. (And, yes, there's enough competition that most employers want a college degree.)

So your degree in ichthyology won't be relevant to your ability to move three-bedroom condominiums. But it will illustrate to the potential employer that you're bright enough, motivated enough, and enough of a team player and rule-follower that you managed to get through four years of college. You didn't decide that you hated your professors and simply disappear into the dorms to play computer games. You were able to figure out and follow the rules for graduation. You were able to learn material well enough to pass tests on it, and do your work close enough to deadlines to earn passing grades. A surprising number of young people can't do that (which is why graduation rates are as low as they are).

If everyone had a degree -- and the degree was legitimately earned, &c. &c., --it would mean that everyone had a work ethic. "Having a work ethic" is something employers look for precisely because not everyone seems to have one. If everyone had one, then "work ethic" would cease to be a meaningful or valuable employment discriminator....

 

[drkitten]

A qualification as a cook is not what would be called a degree, at least in most parts of the world.

"Degree" is a flexible term.

In the States, and I believe in Canada as well, vocational schools offer "associates" degrees, (as opposed to a four-year, "bachelors" degree, or a post-graduate degree like a "masters" or a "doctoral" degree).

But, let's face it. The idea that you need to go to "school" to get a vocational qualification is a little precious in and of itself, isn't it? What are you going to do, sit and hear a lecture about how to mix cake batter? Read scholarly articles about the proper way to fry an onion? Vocational qualifications themselves are a cheap substitute (from the employer's viewpoint) for a proper apprenticeship; you don't have to pay apprentices their wages, and someone else has the task of weeding out the people who can't or won't actually succeed.

 

[lionking]

"Degree" is a flexible term.

In the States, and I believe in Canada as well, vocational schools offer "associates" degrees, (as opposed to a four-year, "bachelors" degree, or a post-graduate degree like a "masters" or a "doctoral" degree).

But, let's face it. The idea that you need to go to "school" to get a vocational qualification is a little precious in and of itself, isn't it? What are you going to do, sit and hear a lecture about how to mix cake batter? Read scholarly articles about the proper way to fry an onion? Vocational qualifications themselves are a cheap substitute (from the employer's viewpoint) for a proper apprenticeship; you don't have to pay apprentices their wages, and someone else has the task of weeding out the people who can't or won't actually succeed.

I don't disagree with your main point, but an apprenticeship in Australia, the UK and most, if not all, of Europe involves a formal qualification as well as the work-based training. I'm not certain of the US.

 

[Garrison0fMars]

But, let's face it. The idea that you need to go to "school" to get a vocational qualification is a little precious in and of itself, isn't it? What are you going to do, sit and hear a lecture about how to mix cake batter? Read scholarly articles about the proper way to fry an onion? Vocational qualifications themselves are a cheap substitute (from the employer's viewpoint) for a proper apprenticeship; you don't have to pay apprentices their wages, and someone else has the task of weeding out the people who can't or won't actually succeed.

Well, from what I heard (though I have no personal experience mind you), most vocational programs do in fact have work related training as part of the program. Also the term "vocational" seems a bit vague. It seems to range from jobs that only really require mere weeks worth of education to 2 years worth.

 

[lionking]

Also the term "vocational" seems a bit vague. It seems to range from jobs that only really require mere weeks worth of education to 2 years worth.

I know we're verging off topic here, but this is a point of much overlap and debate in Australia. It's now possible to get a full, three year degree at colleges which have traditionally catered for trade training (TAFEs); trade certificates can now be upgraded all the way to degree level; there are now degrees in, for example, Circus Arts; we currently have an oversupply of graduates in some fields, but severe trade shortages.

Higher education is a difficult field to get right.

 

[Garrison0fMars]

I know we're verging off topic here, but this is a point of much overlap and debate in Australia. It's now possible to get a full, three year degree at colleges which have traditionally catered for trade training (TAFEs); trade certificates can now be upgraded all the way to degree level; there are now degrees in, for example, Circus Arts; we currently have an oversupply of graduates in some fields, but severe trade shortages.

Higher education is a difficult field to get right.

Here in the US (and most of Canada I believe) we kind of have the same thing. Technical associates & bachelors degrees seem very much like "Trade" degrees really, since they're generally designed for students who intend to enter the work force upon graduation in that particular field of study (nursing, paralegal, allied health, engineering tech, etc. are examples of this)