Has consciousness been fully explained?

[PixyMisa]

Your idea of 'wrong' is humorous. From your wiki

Yeah, I read that before I posted the link the first time. However, I understood it. You're wrong.

Look again. I did, just giving you a place to stuff it.

You didn't just say magic. You tried to attribute impossible properties to physical systems, both real and hypothetical.

You know no more about what this may or may not imply for reality than anyone else does.

Not true at all. I know less about it than some people, but more about it than many others. And in any case, you are merely making an argument from ignorance, which is a logical fallacy for a reason.

 

[AlBell]

Yeah, I read that before I posted the link the first time. However, I understood it. You're wrong.

You usual well supported response.

You didn't just say magic. You tried to attribute impossible properties to physical systems, both real and hypothetical.

Wrong.

Not true at all. I know less about it than some people, but more about it than many others. And in any case, you are merely making an argument from ignorance, which is a logical fallacy for a reason.

Regarding consciousness, some people are making an argument from ignorance.

You don't have a clue yet as to known unknowns; both those and unknown unknowns still await integration into your understanding.

 

[Frank Newgent]

No. That information appears to be qualitatively different from whatever substrate it pops up in.

If you look at the substrate rather than the information, sure. But if you do that, you are completely missing the point.

I can store a movie on a reel of film, on a laserdisc or DVD or Blu-Ray disc, on video tape, on a hard disk, or on an SD card.

It's the same movie. On the reel of film, I can actually see the pictures that make up the movie. I can't see that on any of the other substrates. It's still the same movie.

VCR or disc? Are you trying to make being able to communicate with a conscious mind in a simulation seem mundane?

Can you tell whether a mind in a theta brain state in a simulation is sleeping vs figuring out how to rob a bank?

 

[Ichneumonwasp]

Can you tell whether a mind in a theta brain state in a simulation is sleeping vs figuring out how to rob a bank?

Yes, I can.

 

[Frank Newgent]

Cool. How?

 

[Ichneumonwasp]

Cool. How?

During stage 2 sleep there are sleep spindles and vertex transients. The theta one can occasionally see during intense concentration is easily disrupted by extraneous noise to show normal background activity, and there is often a normal occipital dominant rhythm present while the theta activity is present in the anterior and temporal regions during concentration. When you make a noise while someone is asleep you typically see K complexes (which look like a big slow wave along with spindle activity).

 

[!Kaggen]

During stage 2 sleep there are sleep spindles and vertex transients. The theta one can occasionally see during intense concentration is easily disrupted by extraneous noise to show normal background activity, and there is often a normal occipital dominant rhythm present while the theta activity is present in the anterior and temporal regions during concentration. When you make a noise while someone is asleep you typically see K complexes (which look like a big slow wave along with spindle activity).

OK and now in english

 

[Ichneumonwasp]

OK and now in english

Sorry, since it was basically an EEG question, I answered in EEG-speak.

The bottom line is that they look very different on an EEG and the reaction to stimulation in the two states also looks very different.

 

[Frank Newgent]

I don't think you can determine whether somebody cycling between 5 and 8 cycles a second is dreaming (as in sleeping) vs creatively planning.

Unless you ask them, of course.

 

[Ichneumonwasp]

I don't think you can determine whether somebody cycling between 5 and 8 cycles a second is dreaming (as in sleeping) vs creatively planning.

Unless you ask them, of course.

If I have an EEG running I sure as heck can and for the reasons I just gave you. The two states look very different. If they didn't we'd be in a right pickle trying to determine the state of patients during an EEG. But we are not because the states are not even that close.

It is a little more difficult trying to determine on the basis of the EEG alone someone who has a very slow background with a relatively preserved occipital dominant rhythm and someone who is concentrating, but that is why we use reactivity to make that distinction. Stimulate the person concentrating and the person with the slow background and the EEG looks quite different.

ETA:

If you're talking about someone in REM sleep, that doesn't look anything like deep concentration, and there are always the rapid eye movements as a dead giveaway.

 

[Frank Newgent]

I'm sorry Ichneumonwasp but I think you'll have to forego the visual clues.

The question was can you tell whether a mind in a theta brain state in a simulation is sleeping vs figuring out how to rob a bank?

 

[Ichneumonwasp]

I'm sorry Ichneumonwasp but I think you'll have to forego the visual clues.

The question was you tell whether a mind in a theta brain state in a simulation is sleeping vs figuring out how to rob a bank?

If there are no EEG visual clues, then how do you know that the brain is showing theta activity?

How are you defining a theta state exactly?

 

[Frank Newgent]

Visual as in checking REM.

 

[Ichneumonwasp]

Visual as in checking REM.

What do you mean? The entire EEG is visual. Is there an EEG involved in this or not? If there is no EEG, then there is no means of determining if someone has a certain degree of Theta activity so the question is moot. If there is an EEG going, then we have all the clues from that EEG.

REM does not look like typical concentration I'm afraid. There are certainly significant similarities between REM and the waking state on EEG, but we can tell the difference.

ETA:

Oh, wait, I'm sorry, because you may not realize -- a typical EEG includes eye leads, and eye movements are very obvious in the frontal leads. When I say that rapid eye movements give away the REM state on EEG I am not referring to actually looking at the person's eyes but the eye leads and frontal leads on an EEG. It takes too much time to look at the video along with EEG for typical interpretation and ambulatory EEGs, for instance, do not typical include video (though the capability now exists).

 

[Frank Newgent]

Glad we got that cleared up.

 

[Ichneumonwasp]

Yeah, sorry, I've been switching back and forth between this and reading doing my regular work, so I may not have explained myslef very clearly.

The eye is a dipole, so any time it moves there is a difference in the input to the electrode nearest the eye -- the frontal polar lead -- and the next in line -- one of the other frontal leads (or whatever you want to use as a reference). So, anytime the eye moves it is obvious on the EEG. We can even tell which way the eye moves -- there is a typical downward deflection on a bipolar montage when people blink because the eye moves upward whenver you close your eyelids.

 

[Frank Newgent]

Thanks for the explanation.

That very different internal experiences of a simulation could be associated with very similiar external behaviors of a simulation just seemed funny to me.

 

[Ichneumonwasp]

Thanks for the explanation.

That very different internal experiences of a simulation could be associated with very similiar external behaviors of a simulation just seemed funny to me.

But isn't that true of everyday waking life also? The EEG is one of the 'behaviors' (looking at the behavior of large groups of neurons) we can monitor in both situations. If someone is 'resting' with eyes closed, how do you tell if they are asleep or merely daydreaming? Usually we talk to them and guage the way they respond. The EEG could also answer the question, but most people don't walk around with electrodes on their heads.

 

[Frank Newgent]

But isn't that true of everyday waking life also? The EEG is one of the 'behaviors' (looking at the behavior of large groups of neurons) we can monitor in both situations. If someone is 'resting' with eyes closed, how do you tell if they are asleep or merely daydreaming? Usually we talk to them and guage the way they respond. The EEG could also answer the question, but most people don't walk around with electrodes on their heads.

Exactly my point. There is not necessarily a one-to-one mapping of internal experience onto external behavior.

 

[Ichneumonwasp]

Exactly my point. There is not necessarily a one-to-one mapping of internal experience onto external behavior.

Yep, that's why we have the problem of other minds. There is only one person who is privy to your personal experiences and that is you.

But the only way that any of us can decide if you are conscious is by observing your behavior, as incomplete as our information is. That's how things work in the 'real world' and how they would work for deciding if a simulation were conscious.