"Not Ever" - A Campaign Against Blaming Rape Victims

[brodski]

Everyone knows that he should not being doing that. Everyone also knows that women need to be careful in that situation. So why does the conversation revolve around one and not the other?

because when someone says men should not rape, no-one criticizes them for saying it, all sides agree and there is nothing to discuss, when someone (especially if they are perceived as male) says that, regrettably, it is in a womans interest to be careful in some situations some people accuse men of "justifying" or "rationalizing" rape.

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

Yes, and one of the reasons for that is because in a scenario like this, the response will often be "She should have known better." not "He should not set women up to be assaulted."

Everyone knows that he should not being doing that. Everyone also knows that women need to be careful in that situation. So why does the conversation revolve around one and not the other?

Without in any way rationalizing the hypothetical behaviour described on the part of the men involved... are you sure that in a case like this, the conversation would revolve around the woman's choices?

There's a lot of difference between a case where people are knowingly enabling a sex criminal, and a case where all we know is that a woman was engaging in behaviour that would be dangerous if there happened to be a sex criminal about and nobody at the time knew whether there was a sex criminal about or not.

I think in a case like the one made up here, the conversation would revolve around the fact that a bunch of guys are accomplices to a serial sex offender and that they all suck. Maybe I'm wrong but that's how it seems to me.

 

[ponderingturtle]

because when someone says men should not rape, no-one criticizes them for saying it, all sides agree and there is nothing to discuss, when someone (especially if they are perceived as male) says that, regrettably, it is in a womans interest to be careful in some situations some people accuse men of "justifying" or "rationalizing" rape.

Exactly.

 

[A Lurker]

because when someone says men should not rape, no-one criticizes them for saying it, all sides agree and there is nothing to discuss, when someone (especially if they are perceived as male) says that, regrettably, it is in a womans interest to be careful in some situations some people accuse men of "justifying" or "rationalizing" rape.

And because more often than not, that "rationalizing" is actually an example of the very calling out of rapist behaviour we have been asked to perform for our sisters; but in doing so, in sounding an alarm about an environment or situation or just the façade a potential rapist is hiding behind, we get accused of either wanting to deny women a sexual/social identity, or being an embittered and entitled "Nice Guy" who just hates that he's not the kind of alpha male who could attract a liberated woman like them...

... and then a lot of women still get raped because no matter how much you inherently deserve respect, it's not in the nature of a monster to be capable of it.

Should you then be caned as Skeptic seems to think, because you didn't have the introspection to wonder if your desires were really all that practical the night before? No, being raped is already more punishment than you could ever deserve, no matter what you chose; I know the horror of the inconceivable, incomparable imbalance of injustice it is. I know.

But still... you go binge drinking in a UK city centre any Friday night? You're not going to be getting an elegant discussion of Proust or modern feminism; at least, not until you sober up in the morning. It will instead be shouting drunken nonsense over repetitive umpf-tshh all night, perhaps getting into fights with the bouncers for some of the men, throwing up in the taxi or falling into potted plants... that's what fun in the UK is supposed to be. "Get out of me face, out of control!". You don't ask someone out that you meet in a library, that'd be weird. Pubs N Clubs are where it's at, mate! But it's a hell of a lot harder to rape someone in library. So where do you think the rapists are?

They're at the pubs and clubs, where you're going to be out of control. And we often hear them saying what they plan to do to you in the toilets, or at work or in all those other places they dominate. So instead of complaining we're blaming the victim, when we tell you to be careful, understand we're warning you. And if we're not doing all that crap ourselves, it's not because we're sexist, but quite the opposite. We hate all the stereotypes of what men are supposed to be, for the same reason.

 

[Wildy]

Drinking responsibly is a separate issue. If you want to start a campaign against alcohol, be my guest. But when a woman is raped after getting really drunk, it isn't about the alcohol. It's about the men who raped her.

It's a separate issue except when it isn't. We've got hypothetical situations in this very thread that involve the woman drinking excessively.

Take the underlined bit. To me I would think that it's extremely foolish to ignore one of the causes of the rape simply because of the gender of the victim. The alcohol was a factor that led to the rape. Even then though it still doesn't excuse the rapist's actions.

Absolutely baseless claim made out of genderized apprehension. Male rape victims are never to blame for being raped. You can't even cite the part of the website that lends credence to your claim because, like God, it simply doesn't exist.

Well clearly you didn't even bother reading the post that I was responding to there. Perhaps you should re-read that post more carefully.

 

[MontagK505]

This is an issue where we can easily reach out to males. Advice as simple as this:



This is preventative advice and appropriately targeted.



There is a difference, actually. There are still people out there who don't realize these scenarios where the women is drunk... is rape. Whereas someone who was violently assaulted is unequivocally violent assault. There's an ambiguity with sexual assault, concerning the motivations for it, the locus of causality, etc. that needs to be confronted. And it needs to be confronted with the onus put on the males to not rape as well.

We need to take steps to ensure men don't rape. How is this in ANYWAY a bad narrative? It isn't. And as I demonstrated with another link, it can be preventative!



I don't see how. I mean, did anyone else explore the original website? Because it provides some pretty thorough resources for women.

I believe violence against women is vile. However:

If the next morning the woman claims she was drunk, who has the burden of proof? (I personally don't go looking for female companionship in bars.)

Sorry, but I refuse to feel guilty about a rape I didn't commit.


Yes, we should prevent rape. But one of the nastier things about rape is that it's sometimes difficult to prove. Simply assuming guilt by gender doesn't encourage men to be more supportive.

 

[MontagK505]

<snip>
But the claim that "a rapist is going to rape regardless of the signals one sends or the actions one should or should not have performed" is simply ludicrous. In many instances of rape, had the woman acted in a different manner -- ie. not sticking her tongue in the guy's ear and grabbing his crotch -- the man would not have become aroused to the point of trying to force her into sex. Again, I'm not saying that its the woman's fault for being raped...because had she acted in exactly the same manner with another man, he would not have raped her, he would have been able to control himself. It is the fault of the rapist.

There are things that women can do to at least decrease their chances of getting raped. And they should be aware of this, and act accordingly. The "out of control man who is going to rape women regardless of what they do" does exist...but is hardly representative of all rapists.

If I were the man in this situtation I wouldn't rape. But, I would be very angry. (I actually found myself in a similar situation once. I simply left. What's bizarre is, she couldn't understand why I refused to speak to her after that.)

 

[Skeptic]

And because more often than not, that "rationalizing" is actually an example of the very calling out of rapist behaviour we have been asked to perform for our sisters; but in doing so, in sounding an alarm about an environment or situation or just the façade a potential rapist is hiding behind,

Oh, nonsense. If I tell you to not leave your key in the ignition and your car running lest it be stolen, am I just creating "a facade" for "a potential car thief" to hide behind?

We seem to be having the usual "All-or-nothing" type of thinking: wrongly presuming either ALL possible advice given to women to avoid rape is "a facade" for male control or else NONE is. As if "don't get plastered drunk and go to a room of someone you don't know" is the same as "never take off your burka or go out without a male companion, or you're a whore".

(Funny how, by the way, some people here who consider all advice against rape to be a case of male control are fiercely against banning the burka -- when wearing a burka is the world's most notorious "make yourself into an unrecognizable black object or else your rape is justified" piece of advice, an obvious symbol of male control over women).

 

[Skeptic]

Of course. It's bad for anyone. But it does not mean that you deserve to be raped.

Who is SAYING you deserved to be raped? Everybody here is saying the opposite. We're simply saying it makes it MORE LIKELY to be raped. Leaving your car running with the keys in the ignition is stupid, too, because it makes it more likely your car will be stolen, but doesn't mean you deserve it just for being an idiot.

 

[Skeptic]

I go to dance clubs a lot. Now I'm married, so I don't do any bumping and grinding when I dance with men.

You put on women's clothing and hang around in bars?

(Sorry, I'll get my coat).

Now none of these guys tried to rape me, they just got pissed. But they made it clear to me that they thought I was a tease and that they assumed the fact I had let them kiss me = I would have sex with them.

There's an old joke saying that the difference between rape and romance is patience. There is some truth to that: a man who will wait until you are willing to have sex with him is not a rapist, a man who will not is.

As a man I would say that I, and most men, would think that if you kiss with me on the dance floor it means you might be willing to have sex with me later; that you enjoy my company and want to see how things will go on. Not that you want me in your bed right now. "Later" for me might mean anything from "later that night" to "when we get married", depending on many circumstances, but not "the minute we stop kissing".

After all, if men weren't turned on by women kissing or dancing with them they wouldn't bother going to such clubs at all. For that matter, women wouldn't go to such clubs unless they enjoyed dancing or kissing with men. But that hardly means men go to such clubs thinking they may rape any girl that turns them on, or women with the expectation of, in Dorothy Parker's words, of "two more drinks and I'll be under the host". I saw a car I really liked on the way home tonight -- does this think I mean I think I now have the right to steal it?

Kleptomaniacs, nymphomaniacs, and serial rapists always exist, of course, but they are a very small minority.

 

[Last of the Fraggles]

Yes, and one of the reasons for that is because in a scenario like this, the response will often be "She should have known better." not "He should not set women up to be assaulted."

Everyone knows that he should not being doing that. Everyone also knows that women need to be careful in that situation. So why does the conversation revolve around one and not the other?

Probably because its easier to persuade sensible women not to enter drinking games with strangers than it is to persuade rapists not to rape?

It seems that everyone does not know that women need to be careful in that situation - for example, the woman who drank till she passed out in a strangers company in your example

I can't imagine that the rapist in your case didn't know that what he was doing was wrong. But he did it anyway. Criminals do that.

 

[BobTheDonkey]

So instead of complaining we're blaming the victim, when we tell you to be careful, understand we're warning you. And if we're not doing all that crap ourselves, it's not because we're sexist, but quite the opposite. We hate all the stereotypes of what men are supposed to be, for the same reason.

QFT.

 

[brenn]

So why don't women need to be charged with rape when they have sex with drunk guys as well?

The point is that she made a decision to consent. And in so many other crime related events we hold people to the decisions they make when drunk.

We do in sex crimes too. Being drunk, contrary to popular fiction, does not = rape. Only when a person is so drunk they are incapable of consent, which generally means incapable of speaking, walking, unconscious, etc.

 

[Cobalt]

Lets say there's a college girl who goes to parties and gets drunk. She's done this a number of times without being raped. Then at one party she gets raped. What is the difference between the previous parties and that one? Her behavior was the same. The only difference is that there was a guy there who decided to rape her.

What if she's gone to parties, gotten drunk, flirted a bit too much, but hasn't passed out? Had a pretty good time actually. Started to consider parties part of her social experience.

What if there was a rapist at this party. One who finds passed out women easy. One who has learned that a bit of playful teasing and a drinking game can cause a woman to pass out. One who has the unspoken but oft acted on support of his housemates, who stock up on 151 and put it in jello shots or fruity drinks.

Rapists aren't always mere opportunists.

What are the odds of that situation happening? Not asking in a "it'll never happen" sort of way, I literally mean what are the odds of it?

Is the risk high? If so, when will the odds finally catch up to you?

I feel that it isn't so much a blame issue with some people, but that depending on circumstances surrounding, the amount of sympathy one is willing to extend is limited or expanded.

 

[Skeptic]

It makes pedophilia OK in the sense that I don't think we should persecute pedophiles who do not abuse children.

Is it ever the case that we prosecute people for something they haven't done, only felt an inclination to do? We'd all be in jail in that case. Tell me you seriously haven't wanted to kill somebody at least once in your life. It was never illegal to be a pedophile, or to wish someone dead. It was only ever illegal to act on one's desires.

 

[Last of the Fraggles]

Is it ever the case that we prosecute people for something they haven't done, only felt an inclination to do? We'd all be in jail in that case. Tell me you seriously haven't wanted to kill somebody at least once in your life. It was never illegal to be a pedophile, or to wish someone dead. It was only ever illegal to act on one's desires.

Persecute and prosecute are different things though. What would be the reation if someone publically came out and openly said they are sexually attracted to children, although they have never had sex with any?

 

[ponderingturtle]

Is it ever the case that we prosecute people for something they haven't done, only felt an inclination to do? We'd all be in jail in that case. Tell me you seriously haven't wanted to kill somebody at least once in your life. It was never illegal to be a pedophile, or to wish someone dead. It was only ever illegal to act on one's desires.

How about the fact that we commonly conflate the terms child rapist and pedophile?

 

[Ysidro]

I am a white male in the United States of America. And even I am sickened with the amount of privilage that is being shown in this thread.

People, quit making excuses for rapists. It just makes you evil. Yes, evil.

No, I am not going to respond to your evil, privilaged posts so don't bother. Quit blaming victims. Just stop it.

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

I am a white male in the United States of America. And even I am sickened with the amount of privilage that is being shown in this thread.

People, quit making excuses for rapists. It just makes you evil. Yes, evil.

No, I am not going to respond to your evil, privilaged posts so don't bother. Quit blaming victims. Just stop it.

I have no idea whether Ysidro is serious or not.

 

[tyr_13]

If I were the man in this situtation I wouldn't rape. But, I would be very angry. (I actually found myself in a similar situation once. I simply left. What's bizarre is, she couldn't understand why I refused to speak to her after that.)

I was in a relationship like that for almost nine months.