The death penalty.

[Alt+F4]

Not that I'm saying I'm for or against capital punishment, but labeling it 'murder' is no more accurate than calling a soldier involved in a war a 'murderer' if they kill people operating under valid orders.

You're right, capital punishment is not murder, it's homocide (the killing of one person by another). Murder is the unlawful killing of another person. One may not agree with the law, but if there is a capital punishment law in the jurisdiction, it's not murder.

 

[Two Toed Sloth]

A little context here might be valuable...

Usually when a murderer takes a life, it is done for his own benefit with little or no forethought. When a person is executed, it is (in theory) done with certain legal mechanisms in place to prevent wrongful executions.

Not that I'm saying I'm for or against capital punishment, but labeling it 'murder' is no more accurate than calling a soldier involved in a war a 'murderer' if they kill people operating under valid orders.

Damn good point, I probably shouldn't have referred to it as murder.

Not any more ironic than the penalty for kidnapping/hostage taking is to arrest someone and keep them confined to a prison (which is pretty much what kidnapping was to begin with, isn't it?)

And not any more ironic than taking a person or company that has stolen and making them pay a fine.

Well yes those things are also ironic I suppose, but as I have said I'm not against capital punishment because it is ironic. I oppose executions as there is the option of life imprisonment (Which covers the protection aspect).

The argument for capital punishment as a deterrent does not seem to always gel with the statistics;
http://www.amnestyusa.org/death-pen...ath-penalty-and-deterrence/page.do?id=1101085

Wouldn't a better deterrent be to show footage of criminals being tortured?

 

[dtugg]

While there are good arguments against the death penalty, the argument that the state shouldn't stoop to the level of the murderer is an absolutely ridiculous one. I think that we all agree that citizens shouldn't imprison each other. Yet the penalty for doing that is imprisoning the imprisoner for years maybe decades. Does that mean that the state is stooping to the level of the kidnapper and thus it shouldn't do it?

 

[Cainkane1]

While there are good arguments against the death penalty, the argument that the state shouldn't stoop to the level of the murderer is an absolutely ridiculous one. I think that we all agree that citizens shouldn't imprison each other. Yet the penalty for doing that is imprisoning the imprisoner for years maybe decades. Does that mean that the state is stooping to the level of the kidnapper and thus it shouldn't do it?

Good point. I'm not a fan of the death penalty but the murderers in this case are poster boys for said death penalty. Murder under circumstances as aggravating as in this case is about as close to justifying the death penalty as a criminal can get. Dennis Rader is in the same category.

 

[ARubberChickenWithAPulley]

There's a big difference between the overall "systematic" question of the death penalty, and individual cases. As always, anecdotes don't make for great arguments for or against a broader issue. I definitely agree in this case... I won't shed a tear if this guy (and his partner once he's tried) is put down, and there certainly doesn't seem to be any question about whether they are guilty.

 

[dtugg]

Yes I agree. I don't have a problem with removing the trash, in fact I would advocate the death penalty for all first degree murderers (amoung other crimes), if not for the fact that inocent people would also get executed. With this case though, I think it is too bad that there probably is no hell and that the US Constitution prevents making a hell on Earth for these monsters. We, unfortunately, will have to settle with making them not exist anymore.

 

[Rufo]

Based on Hayes' attitude and reaction, I'd consider this a case of euthanasia, if anything. He has already tried to take his own life, and would likely have tried again if he was not promised that it would be done for him; perhaps he'll do it again anyway, given the time that may pass until his execution.

I oppose the death penalty, and I see no reason to make an exception here. Even without all the general arguments against executing people, it appears that this man wants to die, and while it might seem callous, I see no reason to arrange that for him.

As for the other person mentioned in the OP, Dennis Rader, I believe he is in solitary confinement and will likely remain so for the rest of his life. I find it unlikely he will harm anyone again.

 

[Cainkane1]

Based on Hayes' attitude and reaction, I'd consider this a case of euthanasia, if anything. He has already tried to take his own life, and would likely have tried again if he was not promised that it would be done for him; perhaps he'll do it again anyway, given the time that may pass until his execution.

I oppose the death penalty, and I see no reason to make an exception here. Even without all the general arguments against executing people, it appears that this man wants to die, and while it might seem callous, I see no reason to arrange that for him.

As for the other person mentioned in the OP, Dennis Rader, I believe he is in solitary confinement and will likely remain so for the rest of his life. I find it unlikely he will harm anyone again.

Being segragated in a small cell sounds horrible but the bad guy is safe and with a TV, a radio, and books and magazines it isn't as horrible as it could be. I'd rather be dead myself but thats just me.

 

[Worm]

No nation that executes its citizens can truly call itself civilized.

By killing them, we fail them, and we fail ourselves.

 

[Rolfe]

What he said.

Rolfe.

 

[I Ratant]

No nation that executes its citizens can truly call itself civilized.

By killing them, we fail them, and we fail ourselves.

.
What can be done to eliminate the situations that lead to the situations that have traditionally resulted in the death penalty?
Deterrence is a well-documented failure.

 

[Rolfe]

People used to be sentenced to death for stealing a sheep. Is that what you're talking about?

Rolfe.

 

[Corsair 115]

Show me a Ted Bundy and you've shown me someone who very much deserves to be put to death for his crimes.

I don't object to the death penalty per se, but to my mind it should be a rarely applied punishment, reserved for only the worst of crimes and only in those cases where guilt is demonstrated beyond almost any doubt.

 

[Two Toed Sloth]

Show me a Ted Bundy and you've shown me someone who very much deserves to be put to death for his crimes.

I don't object to the death penalty per se, but to my mind it should be a rarely applied punishment, reserved for only the worst of crimes and only in those cases where guilt is demonstrated beyond almost any doubt.

But why? To what end?

Prison is protection to the rest of society

It seems not to work as a deterrent.

Revenge is pointless.

 

[Pardalis]

Show me a Ted Bundy and you've shown me someone who very much deserves to be put to death for his crimes.

Speaking of Bundy, IIRC, he committed some of his crimes in states that had the death penalty with the deliberate intention to get executed if caught.

 

[Cainkane1]

But why? To what end?

Prison is protection to the rest of society

It seems not to work as a deterrent.

Revenge is pointless.

There have been many murders done to fellow inmates and guards and other staff in prison. If someone is in prison for life with no other punishment then why should they worry about killing someone else? These in prison murdetrs have happened even in maximum security prisons.

Also its not revenge it the proper punishment for a heineous crime.

 

[Alt+F4]

Prison is protection to the rest of society.

Tell that to the families of Lisa Levy, Margaret Bowman and Kimberly Leach. They are the women (actually Leach was a child) that Ted Bundy murdered after escaping from jail.

 

[LukeB]

There have been many murders done to fellow inmates and guards and other staff in prison. If someone is in prison for life with no other punishment then why should they worry about killing someone else? These in prison murdetrs have happened even in maximum security prisons.

Is there any evidence that the death penalty lowers the murder rate within prisons?

 

[Alt+F4]

Is there any evidence that the death penalty lowers the murder rate within prisons?

Yes. The convicted is dead and therefore can't murder anyone else. It is 100% guaranteed that someone who is dead can't kill again.

 

[Mirrorglass]

Also its not revenge it the proper punishment for a heineous crime.

Says who? That is the question. Where does this propriety come from?