Forgiven for what, eactly?

[TubbaBlubba]

We can't travel in time because you can't work out the implications? I find that an unreasonable position.
The Greeks came up with all sorts of apparent paradoxes that were trivially (or sophisticatedly) resolved when empiricism caught up.

What, like Xeno's paradoxes? They had a demonstrable solutions, the Greeks just didn't have calculus to do the maths.

Then I'll rephrase: Time travel (backwards) on a non-quantum scale is impossible within our current framework of reality.

 

[AvalonXQ]

To be explicit, I'm saying the following:
1) There was a moment where Harry Truman decided of his own free will to run for President.
2) After that moment, there was at least one entity that knew that that moment had come, and what Truman decided.
Is there a contradiction here?
Now add the following:
3) Prior to that moment, there was at least one entity that knew that that moment would come, and what Truman would decide.
NOW is there a contradiction? If so, explain (by explicit logical syllogism if possible) exactly what is introduced by Statement #3 that results in a contradiction.

 

[SOdhner]

As far as the free will thing, I agree with Avalon on one part of it but disagree with him on the end conclusion.

I'm willing to still say people have free will if something omniscient knows what they will choose, even with 100% accuracy. I also think it is okay to call it free will if something, somewhere, is both omniscient and omnipotent.

The problem you run into is with a being that is omniscient, omnipotent, AND created the universe. At that point there can be no free will for any lesser beings. The reason is that all things in the universe are no longer properly thought of as independent choices but as consequences of that one original choice by god.

When god (in this example, one who is fully omniscient and omnipotent) created the universe, he had the option of creating it any number of ways. When examining his options, he knew ahead of time what the end result of those creations would be down to the finest detail. That means that when he chose this particular way to make the universe he didn't just chose the matter/antimatter ratio or how gravity would work, he chose what I would have for breakfast and whether or not my plane will crash on a business trip. All of these things were decided at the moment of creation because he knew ahead of time that they would be the consequences of that creation and made a deliberate choice to have this universe over any other in his infinite options.

If I decide to jump off a building we would say that's my choice - but once that choice is made, I can't then say I am choosing to be affected by gravity. It's the same here - once god has made the one, overarching meta-choice of how to create the universe everything IN the universe is just the inevitable playing out.

So, in essence:

1. God is fully Omniscient.
2. God is fully Omnipotent.
3. God created the universe.
4. We have free will.

Pick up to three of the above... but not all four.

 

[TubbaBlubba]

To be explicit, I'm saying the following:
1) There was a moment where Harry Truman decided of his own free will to run for President.
2) After that moment, there was at least one entity that knew that that moment had come, and what Truman decided.
Is there a contradiction here?
Now add the following:
3) Prior to that moment, there was at least one entity that knew that that moment would come, and what Truman would decide.
NOW is there a contradiction? If so, explain (by explicit logical syllogism if possible) exactly what is introduced by Statement #3 that results in a contradiction.

It is only a contradiction if you assume the magical sort of "true free will" that is so prevalent in Christianity. Within a regular cause-and-effect-and-quantum-mechanics framework, the only problem is pre-knowledge of quantum uncertainty outcomes, although that can be resolves by assuming a hidden variable.

 

[qayak]

I simply don't agree that the definition of free will requires that nobody knows what your choice will be.

It isn't a definition it is an inescapable logical reason why there is either an all knowing god and no free will, or free will and no all knowing deity.

It also doesn't require your agreement to be right. You haven't found any flaw in the reasoning, and you won't, but don't feel bad, millions of others have tried and failed as well.

 

[AvalonXQ]

You haven't found any flaw in the reasoning

You haven't provided reasoning -- just a bare assertion.
If you can provide actual logical support for your position, there might be something for me to find a "flaw" in.

 

[Halfcentaur]

What's the difference between god creating you to do everything he knows you will do, and God creating you to choose everything he knows you're going to do?

*messed up the wording, fixed now

 

[AvalonXQ]

What's the difference between god creating you to do everything he knows you will do, and God creating you to do everything he knows you're going to do?

Which one is the same as God creating you with the ability to freely choose what you will do?

 

[D'rok]

To be explicit, I'm saying the following:
1) There was a moment where Harry Truman decided of his own free will to run for President.
2) After that moment, there was at least one entity that knew that that moment had come, and what Truman decided.
Is there a contradiction here?
Now add the following:
3) Prior to that moment, there was at least one entity that knew that that moment would come, and what Truman would decide.
NOW is there a contradiction? If so, explain (by explicit logical syllogism if possible) exactly what is introduced by Statement #3 that results in a contradiction.

If there is an entity that knows what choices Truman will make before he makes them and that entity cannot err, then how could Truman make choices besides those that the entity has foreseen? His choices are pre-destined and free will is an illusion.

 

[AvalonXQ]

If there is an entity that knows what choices Truman will make before he makes them and that entity cannot err, then how could Truman make choices besides those that the entity has foreseen?

Trumen could make the choice not to run for President. Why do you say that he could not?

 

[TubbaBlubba]

Trumen could make the choice not to run for President. Why do you say that he could not?

Not if the knowledge of the person who knows what Truman will do is certain, because it would violate that definitive knowledge. It's like flipping a heads-only coin.

 

[Third Eye Open]

As far as the free will thing, I agree with Avalon on one part of it but disagree with him on the end conclusion.

I'm willing to still say people have free will if something omniscient knows what they will choose, even with 100% accuracy. I also think it is okay to call it free will if something, somewhere, is both omniscient and omnipotent.

The problem you run into is with a being that is omniscient, omnipotent, AND created the universe. At that point there can be no free will for any lesser beings. The reason is that all things in the universe are no longer properly thought of as independent choices but as consequences of that one original choice by god.

When god (in this example, one who is fully omniscient and omnipotent) created the universe, he had the option of creating it any number of ways. When examining his options, he knew ahead of time what the end result of those creations would be down to the finest detail. That means that when he chose this particular way to make the universe he didn't just chose the matter/antimatter ratio or how gravity would work, he chose what I would have for breakfast and whether or not my plane will crash on a business trip. All of these things were decided at the moment of creation because he knew ahead of time that they would be the consequences of that creation and made a deliberate choice to have this universe over any other in his infinite options.

If I decide to jump off a building we would say that's my choice - but once that choice is made, I can't then say I am choosing to be affected by gravity. It's the same here - once god has made the one, overarching meta-choice of how to create the universe everything IN the universe is just the inevitable playing out.

So, in essence:

1. God is fully Omniscient.
2. God is fully Omnipotent.
3. God created the universe.
4. We have free will.

Pick up to three of the above... but not all four.

This is what I was trying to say, you said it better

 

[dafydd]

It is awkward when you use emotional appeals to try to short circuit a discussion. Since you apparently can't explain the relevance, I'll ignore the topic until it's brought up in a more appropriate thread.

Failure noted.

 

[TubbaBlubba]

I think the problem here AvalonXQ, is that you're demanding a mechanism for knowledge to impede a choice system, when both the method of how the knowledge is acquired and known to be certain, as well as the workings of the choice system, are completely undefined with an odor of "goddidit".

 

[D'rok]

Trumen could make the choice not to run for President. Why do you say that he could not?

Because there is an entity that knows Truman will choose to run for president and that entity is infallible.

 

[qayak]

To be explicit, I'm saying the following:
1) There was a moment where Harry Truman decided of his own free will to run for President.
2) After that moment, there was at least one entity that knew that that moment had come, and what Truman decided.
Is there a contradiction here?
Now add the following:
3) Prior to that moment, there was at least one entity that knew that that moment would come, and what Truman would decide.
NOW is there a contradiction? If so, explain (by explicit logical syllogism if possible) exactly what is introduced by Statement #3 that results in a contradiction.

Yes, the contradiction is in #3.

Suppose, 6,000 years ago, at the beginning of the universe god knew that Truman was going to decide to run for president and what god knows is 100% accurate.

What can Truman do to change the fact that he is going to decide to run for president? Nothing. The decision was made 6,000 years ago. Truman didn't have a choice anywhere along the line.

You see, Truman doesn't have free will even though he thinks he does. It was his destiny to become president.

 

[Halfcentaur]

It is exactly like flipping a heads only coin. But God allows us to flip this heads only coin, so that makes him noble. It reminds me of when my father would let me sit in his lap and think I was steering the car as a small child. He was a dangerous man.

 

[iknownothing]

To the question, "Why did God allow specific event X," my answer is, "I don't know."
Truth be told, I'm not really sure why this discussion is even in this thread; it doesn't seem to have anything to do with the other things we're discussing here.

Well, again, we're having this discussion on this thread because that's the topic you keep answering. It's not the most important point.

But you keep asking what is the mechanism by which God's knowledge of our choices limits the choices. It's looking at it from the wrong direction.

If God knows, then how does he know? Because it is knowable. That is, there's a certainty. God can presumably see all the intertwining factors that will lead to Truman's decision to run, and can know with certainty that he definitely will do so. It takes Truman's decision out of the realm of free will, anything-can-happen, and makes him more of an automaton who is carrying out a foreordained action.

 

[qayak]

Trumen could make the choice not to run for President. Why do you say that he could not?

In order to do that, Truman would have to be more powerful than god and you have already claimed god is all powerful.

 

[AvalonXQ]

Failure noted.

How many times did you expect me to answer your irrelevant questions? I try to be courteous, but your constant petulant responses made it a little difficult.