Hello from a non-skeptic

[Halfcentaur]

I need to pay for one of these ancestry sites. My mother always has insisted we're direct descendants of General Lafayette, which I doubt, but I'd love to know more about my family lines. My brother got our genome mapped so at least I know my haplogroup. I am the reincarnation of Turkana boy's lovechild he had with Ramtha the warrior, so it's said.

 

[FSM]

They're talking about this case over at the PLF. I thought, well let's see what the facts are:

http://skeptico.blogs.com/skeptico/2005/07/reincarnation_a.html

A 2 year old kid has nightmares about airplanes, and names a particular type, and the parents (former skeptics) figure out that he is a reincarnated pilot from WW II. He has no way of knowing anything about airplanes...all sorts of technical details (says mom). Well they got a book out of it. They forgot to mention that they took him to an air museum at an early age, and he was fascinated by airplanes and talked of them all the time.

I'm beginning to see the pattern. There's really no point in arguing facts with the believers any more. It's religion 1.2b.

And a little kid with nightmares has now grown into an older kid convinced he's a reincarnated pilot courtesy of ABC superstar/bestselling author parents. Poor kid. That's going to **** up his head forever.



ETA

To Charles:

Charles, I just saw the other thread and for what it's worth, I'm sorry you got kicked off of a forum that you liked so much. I like having you here, though!

Despite the fact that you came here to school us and shake our, whatsits... pedestals, I like that you share your opinions so passionately and I like reading your posts and ancedotes even when I don't think they prove anything other than that you have a great imagination. Most of us here LIKE having people around that we don't agree with, if for no other reason than that we love to hear ourselves post and LOVE debating and thinking about evidence and proof. That's why most of us are here.

There are those like the intrepid Alice Shortcake who are wonderful researchers and enjoy going through assumptions with a fine tooth comb. Instead of letting that annoy you, try to read her posts and really think about everything she's said. Is there something that she got wrong? Using logic and reasoning, is there a geneology step she skipped, or something that she didn't know that would have been helpful to her? That's the stuff I think most of us here would enjoy reading... and if Alice is the person I've gleaned she is from our past momentary forum brushes of personality, if she's missed something or needs to correct something, she would be DELIGHTED to take that into consideration.

That's how it works here, you see. You don't get kicked around in the JREF for being a butthole. No one throws you off the forum for opening up other ways to think about something. Although we do have civility standards, we aren't touchyfeely at all about arguing about the ISSUES. You just have to be nice to the PEOPLE involved, not the subjects. EXAMPLE: Charles, you seem like a nice person, with a great imagination who is smart and well-spoken. Reading some of your ancedotes come across like reading a gothic fiction novel. I think you are talented and again, I enjoy your posts. BUT: I do NOT embrace the past life stuff. There is no proof of it, no evidence at all and it seems like to me that it can actually result in hurting children... even RESEARCHING it like it holds weight seems to perhaps be harmful to kids to my mind. So I have a big, huge problem with it. I have a problem in general about using ancedotes to prove anything... I don't have a problem with YOUR ancedotes particularly. As far as personal experiences go, I'm sure that it was very meaningful to you. Also: it's funny. Past lives are funny to me. I mock it. But I don't mock you.

So, anyway, this is really a great chance for you to be here instead of there. We welcome you; we obviously enjoy you as is proven by the fact that you have quite a popular thread. We all try to write to you personally (which feels overwhelming to you, apparently) because we are really interested in your opinion. We don't care if we change your mind or not about all of this, in fact, if we did it probably would be much more boring.

I care about hearing what you think. Did you do the Ouija test? If so, how'd it go? I'm actually, honestly interested and I think many of us are.

Could they say that over at the past life forum? That they truly are interested in hearing what you have to say about all this, no matter if we agree with you or not?

Anyway, welcome. And I hope you stay.

FSM

 

[H'ethetheth]

Anyway, welcome. And I hope you stay.

...and also that you try your ouija board blindfolded and rotated.

 

[FSM]

...and also that you try your ouija board blindfolded and rotated.

...and that someone else rotates the board after you are blindfolded...

 

[Nursefoxfire]

Interestingly, "Deborah, the Executive Director" over at PLF has just resurrected a thread (that was last posted on 15 months ago) polling people about their past lives, and whether they were average folk or otherwise. I wonder if it's because of our posts here talking about why so many reincarnation stories seem to be about famous people.

 

[FSM]

I am somewhat intolerant of those who are skeptical simply for recreation, the process seems so negative and destructive, it's "sport" eludes me. And I suppose that's what prompted my "relishing in the stupor" quote that has been proudly bannered on another forum. I regret that comment simply because my intent was negative, and it was not constructive to either view point. I tip my hat to Garrett and dlorde for their demeanor here. Your presence, mixed with your understanding and tolerance of our beliefs, are welcome here. http://www.childpastlives.org/vBulletin/showthread.php?p=200149#post200149

Man.... Tinkerman came through like a champ with civility and reasonableness, so in return, I offer this olive branch of peace between our houses... Let the Capulets offer this to the Montagues: I will remove my sig line. And it IS quite a hardship, because I do love it so.

But the decent thing to do, when someone regrets something is to be kind and civil in return... so.... sob... goodbye relishing in stupor...I loved you most of all.

And Tinkerman, thinking skeptically is not a sport for me.... BUT posting on this internet forum certainly is, because, well, because it's fun... and sportlike... and debunkly.

And further to the Montagues: Deleting all the postings you don't like because you've been a butthole? That's silly. We all say stuff we later regret. I once had a 12 page argument with jetleg where I felt very strongly I had to convince him I actually WAS god. I regret this, certainly. But I wouldn't go erasing everything. Youse guys over there need to relax, in my humble opinion. You seem a good sort- who cares if you said something dickish about skeptics? Frankly, I thought it was pretty funny.

And...

I'd LOVE it if you registered over here at the JREF. You are all welcome over here. "All are wel-come..." (that's from poltergeist...)

 

[Dunstan]

Interestingly, "Deborah, the Executive Director" over at PLF has just resurrected a thread (that was last posted on 15 months ago) polling people about their past lives, and whether they were average folk or otherwise. I wonder if it's because of our posts here talking about why so many reincarnation stories seem to be about famous people.

I hope the poll is more finely divided than "famous" and "non-famous," and includes categories like "not famous but involved with famous people or major events," so as to cover all the people who believe they were Napoleon's butler or a soldier in the Battle of Hastings or whatever.

 

[Pixel42]

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Red_Dwarf#Marooned

Rimmer: He told me that in a previous incarnation I was Alexander the Great's chief eunuch.
Lister: You know what? I believe you.
Rimmer: To have lived a life alongside one of the greatest commanders of all time! No wonder the military's in my blood!
Lister: No wonder you're such a good singer!

 

[Olowkow]

I hope the poll is more finely divided than "famous" and "non-famous," and includes categories like "not famous but involved with famous people or major events," so as to cover all the people who believe they were Napoleon's butler or a soldier in the Battle of Hastings or whatever.

I found the poll very confusing, but maybe that's just me. My first reaction was also that Deborah was giving this the Lazarus because of posts at JREF, the timing was just too coincidental:

http://www.childpastlives.org/vBulletin/showthread.php?t=7956

ETA: For some reason, I can't get it to start at the top of the page. Just scroll up from Deborah's post.

 

[Robert Oz]

Did you by any chance get round to seeing anything about Chico Xavier's work?

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=6497233#post6497233


Yes:

The same Chico Xavier whose claims were investigated by The Committee for Skeptical Inquiry (CSI) only four months ago?

Link: http://www.csicop.org/specialarticles/show/spiritualism_in_brazil_alive_and_kicking/

Could indeed the eyes be a necessary instrument in the use of the Ouija? There are just too many questions for one person to answer.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=6497233#post6497233


Not according to your own anecdote:

Only naturally, in the eternal disbelief that reigns upon us all, we asked our friend’s cousin to change his position at the table while we covered or closed our eyes, asking him not to let us know where exactly he would be positioned. The same request was made for a second time, and, despite the fact that none of us who had our fingers on the glass knew what position our friend’s cousin had taken at the table, the glass nevertheless moved towards him again.

But even if you accept that the spirit may need your eyes, it shouldn't preclude the spirit from telling you something you don't already know. Your anecdote supports this:

One way by which we tried to test Luiz Felipe was by drawing the symbols of a triangle, a circle, a square and a cross on four small pieces of paper, which were subsequently crumpled into small paper balls. Having shaken them between the palms of my hands, I then asked one of my friends to pick one out.

“What is the figure on the piece of paper in his hand?” I asked, and, surely enough, the glass slid upon the table forming the figure of a cross; the same figure, of course, which was on the piece of paper in my friend’s hand.

Both claims are testable, so test both. Perform a 'rotated Ouija board blindfold test' and perform a 'reveal cards dealt in another room test'. I predict they will both fail.

Concerning the Ouija and the ideomotor effect, for what it might be worth the “ideomotor effect” is very much an aspect of mediumnic communications.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=6496356#post6496356


Then how do you explain the prank pulled by Derren Brown:

Derren Brown tells a ghost story to a bunch of people and then conducts a seance. Not only are messages received through the Ouija board, but the spirit of the deceased actually seems to enter the body of one of the people in the room. It is only then that Derren reveals that the story was a complete fabrication and introduces the people to the very much alive woman who posed for a photo of the 'deceased'.

Look the video up on Youtube. It is a fascinating insight into just how much our own brains can fool us. These people were not crazy or foolish. They were human. A test of the Ouija board must eliminate subjectivity in order to tell us anything about the real world.

 

[Elizabeth I]

I need to pay for one of these ancestry sites. My mother always has insisted we're direct descendants of General Lafayette, which I doubt, but I'd love to know more about my family lines. My brother got our genome mapped so at least I know my haplogroup. I am the reincarnation of Turkana boy's lovechild he had with Ramtha the warrior, so it's said.

If you're in the U.S., check your library before spending money on a site. Many libraries subscribe to ancestry.com and make it available for the price of a library card (free.)

 

[Alice Shortcake]

With apologies to King James IV, King James V, Prince Charles Edward Stuart and Antoine Dodson

 

[FSM]

Alice, you have made the first geneology photoshop joke I've ever seen. I have to say, I rather enjoyed it.

 

[Illiadus]

There is a video on Youtube where Derren Brown tells a ghost story to a bunch of people and then conducts a seance. Not only are messages received through the Ouija board, but the spirit of the deceased actually seems to enter the body of one of the people in the room. It is only then that Derren reveals that the story was a complete fabrication and introduces the people to the very much alive woman who posed for a photo of the 'deceased'.

Look the video up on Youtube. It is a fascinating insight into just how much our own brains can fool us. These people were not crazy or foolish. They were human. A test of the Ouija board must eliminate subjectivity in order to tell us anything about the real world.

Has anyone else noticed that it's just one person who is doing all the moving and there is no way she's not doing it consciously. That means she's a mole and the whole thing is rigged to make sure the experiment goes the way Derren Brown wants it to.

If you think I'm a conspiracy theorist, you should read what Derren himself says about magic tricks and the magician's need to be in control.

This is a good example of the videomotor effect, which is when a viewer unconsciously reacts to televised images without thinking.

 

[Akhenaten]

Has anyone else noticed that it's just one person who is doing all the moving and there is no way she's not doing it consciously.

No, they haven't.

That means she's a mole and the whole thing is rigged to make sure the experiment goes the way Derren Brown wants it to.

Did you make a standing jump at that conclusion, or did you take a bit of a run-up? It's pretty impressive, in either case.

If you think I'm a conspiracy theorist, you should read what Derren himself says about magic tricks and the magician's need to be in control.

The idea of a forum like this is that you actually tell us what you're talking about, explain why you've drawn the conclusions that you have and then invite discussion on it. You seem to have missed the first couple of steps.

This is a good example of the videomotor effect, which is when a viewer unconsciously reacts to televised images without thinking.

Creating strawmen, underlining their catchy-sounding names and using them as a base from which to launch bare assertions is no way to go through life, son.

 

[Garrette]

you should read what Derren himself says about magic tricks and the magician's need to be in control.

What Derren says about magic is little different from what others in the field have said through the ages, though he says it more entertainingly and more incisively than most.

Interestingly, the magician's "need to be in control" is pretty much the same as a real investigator's need or a real scientist's need to be in control during an experiment or investigation.

Just as interestingly, it is an indirect insistence on a lack of control that is typical of many believers in things such as reincarnation.

 

[Robert Oz]

Has anyone else noticed that it's just one person who is doing all the moving and there is no way she's not doing it consciously.

Please provide evidence of the above, because in every test of the ideomotor effect I've seen (including the test on Penn & Teller's BS), it 'looks' like the planchette is being moved consciously. So consciously, in fact, that believers attribute this 'consciousness' to the spirit world.

By all means, test the concept out yourself. Have some friends over for a seance and make up an elaborate story about the 'spirit' you will all be trying to contact. Tell the group that you will be recording the event without taking part and see if they contact the spirit that doesn't exist.

That means she's a mole and the whole thing is rigged to make sure the experiment goes the way Derren Brown wants it to.

I am open to the possibility that Derren, being a magician, may have used a mole here to ensure success, but I don't think it's necessary. I assume he didn't, because the demonstration was something of a debunking of Ouija boards.

Tests of the ideomotor effect support the assumption that a mole would be unnecessary, but, you are right, Derren is a magician.

That doesn't stop you, or anyone else, from attempting a similar experiment and seeing if a fabricated story would come through in a seance.

This is a good example of the videomotor effect, which is when a viewer unconsciously reacts to televised images without thinking.

It may be. I am a human being, and I am the first to admit that I, too, can be fooled. Which is precisely why testing of paranormal claims (including Ouija boards) must be properly controlled.

 

[Alice Shortcake]

The problem of "control" has bedevilled paranormal research from its earliest days. The reason why frauds from Florence Cook to Uri Geller and beyond have been able to hoodwink scientists is that the average scientist isn't acquainted with the methods used by illusionists, as a result of which the rat ends up running the experiment. When proper controls (often suggested by a professional magician) are put in place, the paranormal effects vanish.

 

[shandyjan]

Alice, you have made the first geneology photoshop joke I've ever seen. I have to say, I rather enjoyed it.

Me too!
Anyone else admit to pushing the ouija? Everyone says they didnt, but I blatantly did once and frightened the heck out of my friend Oh, and it was my first experience of cold reading without even knowing anything about it I didnt know about ideometer either, but i was a teen!

 

[The Norseman]

Wow! This. Thanks.
I'm thinking we need a new shipment of "know it all pedestals".

Since I don't know it all, could I maybe qualify for one of those "I could be wrong but... footstools"?

I need to pay for one of these ancestry sites. My mother always has insisted we're direct descendants of General Lafayette, which I doubt, but I'd love to know more about my family lines. My brother got our genome mapped so at least I know my haplogroup. I am the reincarnation of Turkana boy's lovechild he had with Ramtha the warrior, so it's said.

According to your nym and your avatar, it seems there's more than a startling resemblance to the Black Stallion. I think you may have to continue your research.

I found the poll very confusing, but maybe that's just me. My first reaction was also that Deborah was giving this the Lazarus because of posts at JREF, the timing was just too coincidental...

No, the stars were in perfect alignment as was foretold by Nostradamus himself. And since I'm the current reincarnation of Nostradamus, I can handily verify that I was, in fact, correct.