Evolution: the Facts.

Jonathan Quick said:
"An elephant consists of a trillion colonies of bacteria." (paraphrased) - Richard Dawkins

What ignorance that is.

But that isn't actually what he wrote now, is it?

Let's look at the actual quote:

An elephant is a colony of about 1,000 trillion cells (1015) cells, and each of those cells is itself a colony of bacteria.

Dawkins - Climbing Mount Improbable p.287

So what is your objection to Dawkins' actual statement?
 
Evolution: the Facts.

///

I did. So your accusation is false. And as stated at the time, there is better evidence than Haekels drawings and theory, which was disputed at the time, and since. Science is not homogenous.

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There are so many of you challenging ME and debate is never one-sided when done in a scholarly venue. This most certainly is not. All of you so pretentious in your scholarship SHOULD recognize as much, but clearly not one of you has remarked on it, only I have.

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Moreover, you misspelled homogeneous.

It is not necessary that I refute every sentence by every one of you, but all of you seem to think it is.

That you continue with the absurd idea of defending Haeckel's drawings, which were used, and which argument was advanced for over 100 years when it was FRAUDULENT, bespeaks the reprehensible neglect of those ever eager to claim "scientific" foundations.

Science ought not be nearly so lazy and careless for more than one century.

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Many people keep repeating the incident of Haeckel's fraud. Is that even relevant to a discussion of evidences for (or against) the theory of evolution?

It's not. It's instead a pathetic straw man by Creationists who can't argue against the overwhelming fossil, genetic and molecular evidence for evolution. It's slightly worse than mentioning Piltdown since that was an out and out fraud (though the source and impetus for creating the fossils is still unknown) and the evidences for evolution from embryology and EvoDevo are so powerful, but slightly better than weak appeals to incredulity like "this process takes X steps so it much have been designed" or "Y gene contains Z proteins so it forming spontaneously" - despite the fact that we have loads of evidence that said enzyme, gene, molecular process existed millions of years and millions of generations before humans evolved that particular gene - "is unpossible."

Oh, and Cdesign proponentists objections to Haeckel are highly overstated.
http://ncse.com/creationism/analysis/icon-4-haeckels-embryos
 
Nota bene: Not ONE of the exceedingly self-styled *intellectuals* here condemned your hateful, intolerant attack, calling me ignorant.
Not one.
Um, saying someone is ignorant, i.e. lacking knowledge is not a forum infraction, as opposed to saying someone is stupid , which is a forum infraction.


So you agree that micro-evolution exists, now, do you think it is possible that in two separate populations of a species that enough traits could change through micro-evolution that they two populations could no longer breed (between members of the separate populations) ?

Still pending chromosomal fusions and the peacock's tail.
 
The subject I originally introduced was polypeptides.

Tell me what you know about them from off the top of your head.

What is a polypeptide bond?

How many amino acids were discovered inside the Murchison Meteorite?

How many amino acids are there in the human body?

How many were synthesized in the Miller-Urey experiment, and in what concentrations?

Your failure to answer these questions will demonstrate your own ignorance, notwithstanding your arrogant claims to the contrary.

And your point is?
That the amino acids were not recreated as they exist or that it is not possible to do so?

Abiogensis is a seperate set of theories from the ToE.
 
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Edited by Locknar: 
Edited, breach of Rules 0, 11, 12 removed.


There are so many of you challenging ME and debate is never one-sided when done in a scholarly venue. This most certainly is not. All of you so pretentious in your scholarship SHOULD recognize as much, but clearly not one of you has remarked on it, only I have.

Edited by Locknar: 
Edited, breach of Rules 0, 11, 12 removed.


Moreover, you misspelled homogeneous.

It is not necessary that I refute every sentence by every one of you, but all of you seem to think it is.

That you continue with the absurd idea of defending Haeckel's drawings, which were used, and which argument was advanced for over 100 years when it was FRAUDULENT, bespeaks the reprehensible neglect of those ever eager to claim "scientific" foundations.

Science ought not be nearly so lazy and careless for more than one century.

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Edited, breach of Rules 0, 11, 12 removed.

As stated, the evidence that is considered to support the theory of Evoultion is more than the drawings of someone whose name I mis-spelled.

Do you care to engage in discussion or just rhetorical confrontation?

I am asking you to engage in discussion, since that is the purpose of teh JREF.
 
The subject I originally introduced was polypeptides.

Tell me what you know about them from off the top of your head.

What is a polypeptide bond?
I know that they are properly referred to as "peptide bonds". A polypeptide is a polymer of amino acids. A peptide bond is a chemical bond formed between molecules of amino acid that involves the loss of a water molecule. That is about the extent of my personal knowledge of the subject.

How many amino acids were discovered inside the Murchison Meteorite?
Off the top of my head: Several amino acids, some common on Earth and some rare. Also Also alkanes like those synthesized in the Urey-Miller experiment.

How many amino acids are there in the human body?
Twenty, as I recall.

How many were synthesized in the Miller-Urey experiment, and in what concentrations?
This I do not know off the top of my head. Looking it up I see that twenty two amino acids were synthesized in one of their vessels. "Miller and Urey observed that as much as 10–15% of the carbon within the system was now in the form of organic compounds. Two percent of the carbon had formed amino acids that are used to make proteins in living cells, with glycine as the most abundant. Sugars, liquids, and some of the building blocks for nucleic acids were also formed."

Your failure to answer these questions will demonstrate your own ignorance, notwithstanding your arrogant claims to the contrary.
As you can see I am not completely ignorant of this subject. I also understand that ignorance is not something shameful. We are all ignorant of a great many things. Ignorance is the driving motivation behind the conduct of scientific investigations of the universe around us. When ignorance is accepted and taken as a challenge then it is not an indicator of weakness. Ignorance and curiosity are perfect counterparts. Ignorance is only a failing when it is maintained willfully.
 
JonathanQuick said:
Your failure to answer these questions will demonstrate your own ignorance, notwithstanding your arrogant claims to the contrary.
Never claimed otherwise. In fact, I don't like what I call "squishy biology" (if you poke your specimen and any part of it squishes, it's squishy biology; if you poke it and break your finger, it's paleobiology :D ). I don't really know why; it just never clicked with me.

That said I ahve four books on my shelf 2' from my head right now (an important consideration on the 9th floor straddling the San Andreas) that outline not one or two but dozens of fossil lineages. "Fossil Treasures of het Anza-Borrego Desert" is perhaps my favorite, and deals with sloths, elephant taxa, bears, rodents, etc. "Bringing Fossils to Life" and "On The Origin of Phyla" are also two very good ones.

My point is that you're looking at this from one perspective--biochemistry. And it has good evidence, your comments not withstanding. The problem with evolution, however, is that it is supported by EVERY science which studies biology, from ecology to paleontology to paleobotany to embryology to biochemistry to epidemiology to parasitology, and so on. So while you can claim that I'm ignorant of any one of those fields--and with a single exception, I will gladly agree with you--the people in all the REST of the fields will pounce you. Someone once said "Nothing in biology makes sense except in light of evolution", and he was right.
 
.... Someone once said "Nothing in biology makes sense except in light of evolution", and he was right.

Yeah, but since he also came up with terms which are predominantly used by Creationists, I think he just got lucky on that one. ;)
 
And your point is?
That the amino acids were not recreated as they exist or that it is not possible to do so?

Abiogensis (SIC) is a seperate (SIC) set of theories from the ToE.

The subject is "IGNORANCE." YOU made the comment:

Um, saying someone is ignorant, i.e. lacking knowledge is not a forum infraction, as opposed to saying someone is stupid , which is a forum infraction.

So, on the topic of IGNORANCE and LACKING KNOWLEDGE, I reiterated material in the domain of SCIENCE, and you skittle away from such material, asking what MY "point" is.

How incredibly disingenuous of you.

One simply cannot reply without people like you spinning and twisting in the most anti-intellectual manner.

ciao

I'll add you to my Ignore List. You're clearly a waste of time, like many others here.
 
I know that they are properly referred to as "peptide bonds". A polypeptide is a polymer of amino acids. A peptide bond is a chemical bond formed between molecules of amino acid that involves the loss of a water molecule. That is about the extent of my personal knowledge of the subject.

Look, Foster, we're having a discussion, "in a friendly and lively way," you and me.

Why can't anyone else conduct themselves civilly, as you are doing with me?

There are two reasons:

1. Because they do not wish to. They have absolutely no intention of being friendly with someone like me, whom they hate.

2. Because they know nothing about the science of biochemistry, which is, after all, the foundation of evolution.

We continue, you and I.



Off the top of my head: Several amino acids, some common on Earth and some rare. Also Also alkanes like those synthesized in the Urey-Miller experiment.

There were about seventy. Moreover, the experiment to which you refer is almost always called the "Miller-Urey" experiment.


Twenty, as I recall.

Bravo. Thank you.

I have always found chirality to be fascinating, haven't you?
How it is that the "primordial ooze" managed to do what you and I cannot, without a fine chemistry laboratory, has eluded evolutionary theorists. The only answer I have gotten to such questions is that "SOME" reactions "result in a slight imbalance in D and L forms."


And from a slight imbalance, we get all L forms in life?

This does not follow. Not remotely.


This I do not know off the top of my head. Looking it up I see that twenty two amino acids were synthesized in one of their vessels. "Miller and Urey observed that as much as 10–15% of the carbon within the system was now in the form of organic compounds. Two percent of the carbon had formed amino acids that are used to make proteins in living cells, with glycine as the most abundant. Sugars, liquids, and some of the building blocks for nucleic acids were also formed."

Only two or three of those simplest amino acids were in significant quantity, which is to say more than a trace. The papers I have read didn't list nearly as many as twenty-two, but even so, I accept your figure.

You see, rather than call someone "stupid" or a "liar" for citing facts with which I disagree, it is much simpler to find some sort of compromise so we can continue on to things even more interesting.

Your pals cannot countenance such a thought.


As you can see I am not completely ignorant of this subject. I also understand that ignorance is not something shameful. We are all ignorant of a great many things. /// Ignorance is only a failing when it is maintained willfully.

Tell that to your pals, who call me "ignorant" with dozens and dozens of posts, directly and indirectly. Maybe they will listen to you.

I believe I will concentrate on responding to thoughtful people like you in the future. It's far more productive and interesting than trying to relate to chimpanzees, who do little more than shake their ears wildly and make loud noises.
 
But that isn't actually what he wrote now, is it?

Let's look at the actual quote:

An elephant is a colony of about 1,000 trillion cells (1015) cells, and each of those cells is itself a colony of bacteria.

Dawkins - Climbing Mount Improbable p.287


So what is your objection to Dawkins' actual statement?

Each cell in an elephant is NOT "a colony of bacteria."

You mean you didn't know that?

A colony of bacteria inside a living cell is called an "infection."
A quadrillion infected cells would of course be fatal.
 
I have always found chirality to be fascinating, haven't you?
How it is that the "primordial ooze" managed to do what you and I cannot, without a fine chemistry laboratory, has eluded evolutionary theorists. The only answer I have gotten to such questions is that "SOME" reactions "result in a slight imbalance in D and L forms."


And from a slight imbalance, we get all L forms in life?

This does not follow. Not remotely.

Except when we start to consider the number of ways chirality CAN emerge in non-living systems.

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v409/n6822/full/409797a0.html
http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/short/1065625v1


Crystalline structures are interesting that way. As is many clay systems, which can also induce chirality through molecular orientation.
 
I have always found chirality to be fascinating, haven't you?
How it is that the "primordial ooze" managed to do what you and I cannot, without a fine chemistry laboratory, has eluded evolutionary theorists. The only answer I have gotten to such questions is that "SOME" reactions "result in a slight imbalance in D and L forms."


And from a slight imbalance, we get all L forms in life?

That's not even true. Glycine is achiral, and D amino acids are found in some living organisms.

How many amino acids do you think are found in living organisms? If you already numbered them, would you kindly repeat the answer?

Thanks,
John Jones
 
How is this still going on? Why in the world are the mods tolerating this off-topic mythocrap in a thread that's supposed to be about the facts of evolution? The so-called "debate" between reality and religio-liars belongs in ITS OWN SEPARATE THREAD, not this one!
 
I have always found chirality to be fascinating, haven't you?
How it is that the "primordial ooze" managed to do what you and I cannot, without a fine chemistry laboratory, has eluded evolutionary theorists. The only answer I have gotten to such questions is that "SOME" reactions "result in a slight imbalance in D and L forms."

And from a slight imbalance, we get all L forms in life?

This does not follow. Not remotely.

Only two or three of those simplest amino acids were in significant quantity, which is to say more than a trace. The papers I have read didn't list nearly as many as twenty-two, but even so, I accept your figure.

You see, rather than call someone "stupid" or a "liar" for citing facts with which I disagree, it is much simpler to find some sort of compromise so we can continue on to things even more interesting.

Your pals cannot countenance such a thought.
It this point I must defer to Joobz. He has a Ph.D in ChemE and his research involves cellular biology. You'll find a lot of people on this forum who are genuine experts in a variety of fields. I know that there are a number of other biologists on this forum who will be happy to explain the present state of evolutionary biology.
 
Each cell in an elephant is NOT "a colony of bacteria."

You mean you didn't know that?

A colony of bacteria inside a living cell is called an "infection."
A quadrillion infected cells would of course be fatal.

In a very real evolutionary sense, a eukaryotic cell is a colony of bacteria. Dawkins may have been writing a bit poetically in reference to the history of eukaryote evolution, but he is not incorrect to write what he did.
 
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The subject is "IGNORANCE." YOU made the comment:



So, on the topic of IGNORANCE and LACKING KNOWLEDGE, I reiterated material in the domain of SCIENCE, and you skittle away from such material, asking what MY "point" is.

How incredibly disingenuous of you.

One simply cannot reply without people like you spinning and twisting in the most anti-intellectual manner.

ciao

I'll add you to my Ignore List. You're clearly a waste of time, like many others here.

And so your point is only rhetorical, now we can't actually discuss the ToE is you put me on IGNORE.

I asked what your point is to understand it.

Funny, you did not answer the question about micro-evolution that was the next step in discussion.
 
How is this still going on? Why in the world are the mods tolerating this off-topic mythocrap in a thread that's supposed to be about the facts of evolution? The so-called "debate" between reality and religio-liars belongs in ITS OWN SEPARATE THREAD, not this one!

Did you report it?
 

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