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Hello from a non-skeptic

The experiment has been conducted in various laboratories with the same result (please correct me if I am mistaken): electrons bombarded one at a time upon a plate with two openings and a sensor placed behind it. Initially the indications on the sensor gave the results expected for a "wave", but when another sensor was placed to observe what might be happening the sensor began to give the results expected for a particle.

Does the explanation of fotons truly account for this?

Did you read the blurb I posted above ? Did you try to enter , say, duality wave particle in wiki as a research start ? Do you also understand that anyway, this would have nothing to do with human consciousness (no experimental link) or even dead and mediumship (no experimental link, not even experimental evidence of existence) ?

It is about as if you were saying that the Chupacabra exists, then says something about hematocrite count in case of sickle anemia, without ever providing evidence to link both.

In the context of evidence, until you prove that human consciousness has any effect on particle or wave, speaking of the duality of wave particle is a NON SEQUITUR.
 
Surely, someone who was skeptical of the paranormal for "a number of years" had studied and understood the technique of "cold reading", and would not pay good money to visit a medium to find out the fate of Diana and the status of his wife with whom birth control was not an option.
I have trouble imagining this scenario for some reason. Without a full transcript of the actual words used by the medium, it is impossible to even comment on such a claim. I suggest Charles look into some of the cold readings done by the top "psychics" (not Sylvia, very bad at what she does), and how it works.

ETA: Oh, and Hamlet actually said:
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy
And it was followed by:
Or by pronouncing of some doubtful phrase,
As 'Well, well, we know,' or 'We could, an if we would,'
Or 'If we list to speak,' or 'There be, an if they might,'
Or such ambiguous giving out, to note
That you know aught of me: this not to do,
:)
 
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Contrarily to what has been said here, I believe we are more prone to disbelieving than believing. It took a heck of a lot before I came to believe in the possibility that there might be more than just what meets the eye...
We all have inbuilt cognitive biases which cause us to see signals in the noise even where there is in fact only noise. It's this that can (and often has) led the most disbelieving of self-proclaimed sceptics to become a believer because of a few personal experiences which they cannot explain. Indeed the more prone to disbelieving someone is the more likely they are to be convinced by such personal experiences - if they have never taken the time to find out about how our perceptions work, and how easily they can be deceived.
 
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Charles, if your two anecdotes are evidence of the paranormal than I am SonOfLaertes the Magnificent. I can recall countless times in my life that I thought of something which turned out to happen/be true at a later date. I would be more impressed by this feat of mental power if I never sat down and thought about all the times that I thought about things which never came to pass.

Really, it would be shocking if you didn't occasionally experience this sort of thing. The fact that you notice your "hits" and forget the countless misses makes you human.
 
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On June 25, 2009, Ed McMahon and Farrah Fawcett had just died. I, along with some friends of mine, enjoy the "celebrities always die in threes" superstition, so we (as usual) emailed our guesses as to who would be next.

I SO wanted to say Michael Jackson. He was my very first thought. Not because of anything "psychic" (I've had stuff happen that at least felt "psychic", but this didn't); it was just a thought because he was one of the most famous and strangest celebrities. I wound up guessing B. B. King, just because he was old and stuff.

A few hours later, Michael Jackson was dead.

I'm an honest guy, so I wouldn't go around claiming I was psychic for the prediction or anything, but man, I really really wish I had guessed that in a time-stamped email a few hours before his death. Then I'd actually have proof of my amazing guess instead of just my word about it :/

Anyway, that's just my own story as far as lucky guesses and stuff...
 
I personally have also encountered apparently mediumnic occurrences


Yes, I'm sure you, and many others, have encountered "apparently mediumnic occurences". The key words being "apparently mediumnic". However, the fact that nobody is perfect and everyone is fallible means that personal experience is not enough. You, like all human beings, are heavily prone to confirmation bias.


which would go well beyond the possibility of a scam of any kind


Firstly, how do you know that? You have a remarkable skill if you are able to tell how all cons, magic and mentalist tricks are performed. Banachek was able to convice an entire team of parapsychologists that he had paranormal powers. Derren Brown has performed tricks that some would swear up and down are impossible. James Randi has been accused of being a psychic who only pretends to be performing conjuring tricks.

The whole point of a scam is to fool you into thinking it's real.

Secondly, it doesn't necessarily have to be a scam to have fooled both you and the 'medium' in question. One can inadvertently learn to cold read without realising what he or she is doing. Ray Hyman wrote an article on this very thing. Hyman once convinced himself that he was actually reading fortunes on the palms of strangers.


my 2nd wife's pregnancy of my daughter when my wife was just two weeks pregnant and neither she nor I even suspected that this could be possible,


This is one I've heard a few times (predicting a pregnancy). Without a recording of the reading, it is impossible to tell exactly how this 'prediction' may have worked. There are several possible explanations. For example:

- A lucky guess. The law of large numbers means even wild guesses result in hits from time to time. You happened to be one of the people who the 'medium' scored on.

- The 'medium' deliberately makes the pregnancy guess with a lot of couples. If he or she gets it wrong, the prediction is forgotten or another correct prediction takes its place in the sitter's memory (confirmation bias). If he or she gets it right, the story is spread and his or her reputation grows.

- The 'medium' deliberately makes the pregnancy guess with the intention of shifting the target based on feedback from the sitter (cold reading technique). The best result is if the couple is actually pregnant. If they are not, but they have a daughter, the 'medium' can shift the hit to be describing the previous pregnancy. If the couple aren't pregnant and don't have a daughter, the 'medium' shifts the prediction to the future (and then he or she technically can't be proven wrong until the woman hits menopause).

This is cold reading and the 'medium' can honestly believe he or she actually has paranormal powers or it may have been a scam. To say that the experience was "well beyond the possibility of a scam of any kind" is, with all due respect, naive. Scam artists use all three of the above techniques all the time (see Ian Rowland's The Full Facts Book of Cold Reading).


and the death of Lady Diana just seven days prior to the actual event.


Again, the law of large numbers. Psychics all over the world make many, many wild predictions in many forms of media. From time to time some of them may get some predictions right. Fantastic! Forget or delete the long list of wrong predictions and focus and sell the right ones (confirmation bias).

Say I make 100 wild predictions about celebrities and tell each prediction to 100 different people. If one of those predictions turns out to be true, I guarantee you the 99 wrong ones will never be mentioned by 99 people (except maybe in passing). But the one correct guess is discussed on forums and conversations with family and friends. And so the reputation of the 'medium' and the unfounded belief in paranormal powers spreads.


Neither of these two incidents could have been a set up or a scam, but of course you may simply claim that I am lying in what I am saying and we can consider this case closed. That's fine...


Of course it's possible you are lying, but I generally give people the benefit of the doubt when they come to these forums. As mentioned above, the statement that "Neither of these two incidents could have been a set up or a scam" obviously comes from someone who does not know much about cold reading.


But to me who experienced these occurrences personally, the question as to how this is possible still remains.


I can't, for the life of me, figure out how David Copperfield changes a motorcycle into two women in a matter of seconds, but it doesn't mean we should accept that he has special powers.

If the only way I can tell the difference between performances by Banachek, James Randi, Derren Brown, John Edward and James Van Praagh is by trusting their explanations, I would be naive to accept that Edward and Van Praagh are talking to dead people, while Banachek, Randi and Brown are getting the same results using age-old mentalist techniques.

Welcome to the forum.
 
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The experiment has been conducted in various laboratories with the same result (please correct me if I am mistaken): electrons bombarded one at a time upon a plate with two openings and a sensor placed behind it. Initially the indications on the sensor gave the results expected for a "wave", but when another sensor was placed to observe what might be happening the sensor began to give the results expected for a particle.

Yes, that's the classic "two-slit experiment," but nothing about it is dependent on human consciousness, or any other consciousness for that matter.

I don't yet know anything about Jacqueline Pool, but I know enough about quantum mechanics to know that your impression of it is way wrong.
 
Some researchers have been investigating the possible association of the greater or lesser mediumnic capacity of an individual to the pineal gland, a small organ in the brain which could possibly be responsible for converting spiritual messages into stimulus to the brain thanks to a mineral called apatite, which is present in the gland's cells. The greater the number of apatite crystals present in such cells, the greater would be the capacity to maintain contact with the electromagnetic signals from the spiritual entities and realms.
If you are interested in whether such research is valid, as opposed to pseudo-science designed to confuse the ley person using sciency sounding words ask for a link to the research and someone here will be happy to evaluate it for you.

My money is that you won't find such a paper or the paper is to do with the pineal gland but nothing to do with converting spiritual messages. Either way I suspect someone is trying to con you.
 
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Unless "foton" is something so new I can't find anything relevant with a quick Google, you've just misspelled "photon." I suspect you may not have a sufficient background in science to understand the answers to your questions, or even the questions themselves.
Sledge, he meant futon. If you bombard many futons with an electron, the best thing to do it sleep on it, but your in-built quantum sensors will soon tell you that a bed is more comfortable.
 
Yes, that's the classic "two-slit experiment," but nothing about it is dependent on human consciousness, or any other consciousness for that matter.

On what basis do you claim so as a fact?

I gave two personal examples merely to explain a little as to how I came to believe that there is phenomenae beyond our current knowledge, as I also did with the case of Jacqueline Pool as an example of a case that was not personal.

I refer to the "two-slit experiment" as an example of the fact that perhaps human consiousness might be something more than merely the result of electro-chemical discharges of the human brain.

The problem I find here is an immediate tendency to attack before taking the issue into an unbiased consideration. Not good science, surely. The fact that I may have spelled "foton" instead of "photon" derives from the fact that I have lived in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil, since the age of three. I am certainly not a quantum physicist, which was why I posed the question. I did once, however, see an interview with a quantum physicist in which he claimed that "scientists would not bring consciousness into the equation simply because it would make the equation too complex..."

How many times have you found yourself thinking of something and someone else comes right out and talks about what you were thinking? How often have you had a "premonition" such as in the case of Michael Jackson's death that has just been mentioned? I saw a video once taken of a guitarrist of a band here in Brazil saying he had had a dream in which he "saw" himself inside a plain on fire. That night when he was returning from a show he and all the other members of his band were killed in a plain crash.

The "biased approach" I mentioned in my first post is precisely what I meant: the discarding of a possibility solely due to pre-conceptual thinking, and not a more careful verification of the "truth".

In the case of Lady Di's death, what was said to me by a "medium" on the previous Saturday (not in a "paid consultation") was that "a member of the Royal Family would die that week". At first I thought it would probably be the Queen Mother, given her age at the time, but upon running through the channels of Cable TV on the following Saturday I crossed CNN at the moment in which they were broadcasting the news of the accident. Even before the official confirmation of her death, I knew what had been said to me had to refer to her.

In any given circumstance, shouldn't all possibilities be considered rather than instantly discarded?

Charles
 
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And btw, attacking me or attempting to ridicule me is by no means an "unbiased" approach... So can we try something different?
 
In the case of Lady Di's death, what was said to me by a "medium" on the previous Saturday (not in a "paid consultation") was that "a member of the Royal Family" would die that week. At first I thought it would probably be the Queen Mother, given her age at the time, but upon running through the channels of Cable TV on the following Saturday I crossed CNN at the moment in which they were broadcasting the news of the accident. Even before the official confirmation of her death, I knew what had been said to me had to refer to her.
So not specifying which royal family, or which member. And it happened over a week later.

Charles. This could get rapidly out of hand. I suggest you stick to one topic at a time. Start again and give us one thing you think there is good scientific evidence for and we can look at it.

However I suggest you pick something you understand. Don't go for quantum physics if your knowledge is limited to seeing someone on a TV show talk about it.
 
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How many times have you found yourself thinking of something and someone else comes right out and talks about what you were thinking?


Confirmation bias. How many times have you found yourself thinking of something and someone else doesn't come right out and talk about what you were thinking?


How often have you had a "premonition" such as in the case of Michael Jackson's death that has just been mentioned?


Confirmation bias. Stereolab said "I, along with some friends of mine, enjoy the 'celebrities always die in threes' superstition, so we (as usual) emailed our guesses as to who would be next". How many people might play this game? How many make predictions like these that are wrong?


I saw a video once taken of a guitarrist of a band here in Brazil saying he had had a dream in which he "saw" himself inside a plane on fire. That night when he was returning from a show he and all the other members of his band were killed in a plain crash.


Law of large numbers. The entire population of the world dreams regularly. The number of dreams that come true is statistically insignificant. How many dreams don't come true?


The "biased approach" I mentioned in my first post is precisely what I meant: the discarding of a possibility solely due to pre-conceptual thinking, and not a more careful verification of the "truth".


When we have a mundane explanation and an explanation that contradicts everything we know about reality and has no evidence, surely the default choice should be the mundane explanation. By all means, investigate if there is anything more to the extraordinary explanation, but don't accept it in the absence of evidence.

Gravity could be holding the Earth in its orbit around the sun, or it could be sitting on the back of an invisible turtle swimming through the ether. How does one decide?


In the case of Lady Di's death, what was said to me by a "medium" on the previous Saturday (not in a "paid consultation") was that "a member of the Royal Family" would die that week. At first I thought it would probably be the Queen Mother, given her age at the time, but upon running through the channels of Cable TV on the following Saturday I crossed CNN at the moment in which they were broadcasting the new of the accident. Even before the official confirmation of her death, I knew what had been said to me had to refer to her.


So the 'medium' didn't predict Lady Di's death. The 'medium' predicted the death of 'a member of the Royal Family'. Isn't it possible that, due to age, the 'medium' also had the Queen Mother in mind? I'm sure many mediums all over the world were making regular 'death of a member of the Royal Family' predictions with baited breath, eagerly anticipating the keeling over of the old bat.


In any given circumstance, shouldn't all possibilities be considered rather than instantly discarded?


Not all possibilities are created equal (see above).
 
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Who is attacking you?

The reference to my spelling, for a start... "Photon" is spelled "Fóton" in Portuguese. "Futon" is not attacking and attempting to ridicule?

The "one issue at a time" I wish to debate is the asociation between the act of observation influencing experimental results. My own personal cases can easily be discarded. I gave them merely as examples.

I don't have to be a quantum physicist to pose a question based on what has already been verified, so I'll ask the question again:

How can the act of observation have an effect on quantum physics experiments? How does this interaction take place?
 
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So not specifying which royal family, or which member. And it happened over a week later.

Does this discard the fact in itself of what I was told and what happened seven days later?
 
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The reference to my spelling, for a start... "Photon" is pelled "Fóton" in Portuguese. "Futon" is not attacking and attempting to reidicule?
Generally, no one here points out spelling errors, since we all make them, but once in a great while an error is just humorous, and it is turned into a joke. This was no attack, it was just poking fun at the whole idea of photons having something to do with mediums.

Many psychics or believers have come and gone at JREF, and none has ever produced any evidence of their claims. We have all been through this many times. Lighten up.:)
 
it was just poking fun at the whole idea of photons having something to do with mediums.

Not my words... What I am getting at is the possibility that "consciousness" might be something more than just the result of electro-chemical discharges of the human brain.
 
What I am getting at is the possibility that "consciousness" might be something more than just the result of electro-chemical discharges of the human brain.
Ah, the hard problem. Decent topic, but also discussed and re-discussed innumerable times at the JREF. Not my area of expertise, but others will, I'm sure, jump in. The issue, though, is that you ask this reasonable question but then jump immediately in with quantum physics without the requisite understanding of it. It has already been posted in this thread how observation in this sense does not equate to human observation, so I'd recommend leaving that bit out for now.

ETA: What Pixel said. Wrong forum.
 

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