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Evidence for why we know the New Testament writers told the truth.

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You've got the right to your opinion just as these academics have the right to theirs:

From the article: The Resurrection: Fact or Fiction?

1. Roman History Scholar - Thomas Arnold -- Arnold wrote the three-volume History of Rome and held the chair of modern history and Oxford University. He was well acquainted with the value of evidence in establishing historical facts. This great scholar wrote:

"I have been used for many years to study the histories of other times, and to examine and weigh the evidence of those who have written about them, and I know of no one fact in the history of mankind which is proved by better and fuller evidence of every sort, to the understanding of a fair inquirer, than the great sign which God hath given us that Christ died and rose again from the dead."10.
Thomas Arnold. Thomas Arnold. Thomas Arnold. The name rings a bell. Thomas Arnold, Where have I head that name?

Got it.


Oxford historian Thomas Arnold , the author of the 3 volume "History of Rome" whom I mentioned about 6 months ago in other threads said the following:

"The evidence for our Lord’s life and death and resurrection may be, and often has been, shown to be satisfactory; it is good according to the common rules for distinguishing good evidence from bad. Thousands and tens of thousands of persons have gone through it piece by piece, as carefully as every judge summing up a most important cause. I myself have done it many times over, not to persuade others, but to satisfy myself. I have been used for many years to study the histories of other times, and to examine and weigh the evidence of those who have written about them, and I know of no one in the history of mankind which is proved by better and fuller evidence of every sort, to the understanding of a fair inquirer than the great sign which God has given us that Christ died and rose again from the dead" (ref.7, pp.425-426).

"Professor Thomas Arnold, former chair of history at Oxford, and author of the famous volumes, History of Rome, was skillfully educated in the study of historical facts. Professor Arnold, stated, "I have been used for many years to study the histories of other times, and to examine and weigh the evidence of those who have written about them, and I know of no one fact in the history of mankind which is PROVED BY BETTER AND FULLER EVIDENCE of every sort, than the great sign which God has given us that Christ died and rose again from the dead."

You call it fantasy; Thomas Arnold of Oxford calls it history, and Dr. Simon Greenleaf of Harvard calls it legal evidence.

-Oxford historian Thomas Arnold (who wrote the 3 volume "History of Rome") and his belief that Jesus' life and resurrection was proved by more historical evidence than any fact in history up to that point.

Thomas Arnold of Oxford and author of the 3 volume "History of Rome" didn't say there is better and more historical evidence for Jesus (and the resurrection) then for any fact in history (up to that point) for the heck of it.

Thomas Arnold of Oxford (author of the 3 Volume History of Rome) and Sir William M. Ramsay had enough evidence for their Christian beliefs, I'm sorry you don't.

"Professor Thomas Arnold, former chair of history at Oxford, and author of the famous volumes, History of Rome, was skillfully educated in the study of historical facts. Professor Arnold, stated:

"I have been used for many years to study the histories of other times, and to examine and weigh the evidence of those who have written about them, and I know of no one fact in the history of mankind which is PROVED BY BETTER AND FULLER EVIDENCE of every sort, than the great sign which God has given us that Christ died and rose again from the dead."

Thomas Arnold (of Oxford) wrote a 3 volume book on the history of Rome. His statement was:

"I know of no one fact in the history of mankind which is PROVED BY BETTER AND FULLER EVIDENCE of every sort, than the great sign which God has given us that Christ died and rose again from the dead."

Originally Posted by DOC

Oxford professor Thomas Arnold and the author of the 3 Volume "History of Rome" would disagree, in fact he said there was more historical evidence for the life and resurrection of Jesus Christ than any other fact in history up to the point he said it. I think a problem in this thread is a lot of people don't understand what "historical" evidence means.

So what do I think of your Thomas Arnold evidence?

I think these people sum it up the worth of Thomas Arnold better than I could.

As usual, your penchant for only quoting small snippets from a post (which does occasionally have its place) undercuts the ACTUAL context of the point being made; as surely as Shirley Sherrod was smeared by Breitbart's and Fox "News'" antics.

The point being made was that the writings allegedly based on Josephus' works only date back to the 11th century Christian Monk Scribes, and that even if Josephus had written those very words, he didn't have the Extraordinary Evidence to back up the Extraordinary Claims of Jesus' resurrection.

The very same can be said for Professor Thomas Arnold. As good as the rest of his work may have been, his claims for Jesus' Divinity and Resurrection are likewise unsupported by the necessary evidence.

GB

Arnold is also famously known for supporting religious education over scientific.

He is famously quoted as writing:

"Rather than have it [physical sciences] the principal thing in my son's mind, I would gladly have him think that the sun went round the earth, and that the stars were so many spangles set in the bright blue firmament."

Yup. He would rather people believe known lies and be Christian than know truth.
Not a very reliable source when it comes to religion, is he DOC?

But it gets better.
if you go to the book, Life and Correspondence of Thomas Arnold (7th ed) in google books and search for Greenhill. Go to page 376.

You'll find the complete source of the quote. Which continues:

"Surely the one thing needful for a Christian and an Englishman to study is Christian and moral and political philosophy, and then we should see our way a little more clearly without falling into Judaism, or Toryism, or Jacobinism, or any other ism whatever."

That's the most disingenuous, nay, blatantly dishonest, post that I've ever read on this Forum. It's a disgrace, and if you think in any way that it represents the thoughts of honest and sincere christians then there is little hope that your words will ever find acceptance on either side of the theological fence.

Do you truly believe there have been no advances in the study of history since the time of Thomas Arnold?

Have you deliberately ignored this post by Waterman?

If I may be permitted to quote myself:

The staggering thing (well, perhaps not to those who've followed this thread) is that my reply is from over a year ago. It wasn't the first time DOC had referenced Thomas Arnold or Simon Greenleaf, and it wasn't the last (October and November, last year). And yet he keeps coming back with discredited arguments. It's as if he can't actually read anything that disagrees with his worldview.

<sigh> You think it's been long enough since you last appealed to this authority that you think we've forgotten about what was said last time?

Interesting you should mention him, though, since he is an example of someone who existed, and who also appears as a character in a work of fiction. By your logic, though, everything written about him in Tom Brown's Schooldays really happened.


As dafydd said almost exactly one year ago when you brought Thomas Arnold up yet again.

Sometimes I get the strangest feeling of deja vu.............
all over again......
 
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Admitting that it is just those mens' opinions is a small but important step for you, DOC. Eventually, you will get to the point where you finally acknowledge that there is no evidence for the truth of the magic parts of the bible, just a lot of wishing it were true.
But there is evidence for the supernatural parts, just not proof, kind of like the big bang theory and life from non-life theory.
 
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...... there is no evidence for the truth of the magic parts of the bible, just a lot of wishing it were true.

The 'magic' and 'spiritual' parts of the New Testament 'Legend' are but elements of the 'Myth' it is transmitting.
The twelve apostles are the twelve major function-areas of the brain.
Walking on water refers to the doctrine of conscious spiritual function outside the physical body.
The whole thing is a legend transmitting the ONE-ONLY myth of human perfectibility personified by such as Jesus.
It is global and applies to ALL the genuine religious-spiritual traditions.
 
Thomas Arnold. Thomas Arnold. Thomas Arnold. The name rings a bell. Thomas Arnold, Where have I head that name?

Got it.

So what do I think of your Thomas Arnold evidence?

I think these people sum it up the worth of Thomas Arnold better than I could.

As dafydd said almost exactly one year ago when you brought Thomas Arnold up yet again.

all over again......

Well you might not like Oxford professor Thomas Arnold whey he talks of the historical Christ but you've got to admit this man knows a thing or two about history.

From the Amazon.com website:

The Second Punic War: Being Chapters of the History of Rome by the Late Thomas Arnold ... by Thomas Arnold (Paperback - Feb 17, 2010)
Buy new: $38.75 $34.88


History of Rome: From the Gaulish Invasion to the End of the First Punic War by Thomas Arnold (Paperback - Feb 25, 2010)
Buy new: $47.75 $36.29


History of Rome: Early History to the Burning of Rome by the Gauls by Thomas Arnold (Paperback - Mar 7, 2010)
Buy new: $45.75 $34.77

History of the later Roman commonwealth,: From the end of the second Punic war to the death of Julius Caesar; and of the reign of Augustus; with a life of Trajan by Thomas Arnold (Unknown Binding - 1857)
2 used from $60.00

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=pd_lpo_..._m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=1YKBVHDE8TBT8VXKT0E9
 
Well you might not like Oxford professor Thomas Arnold whey he talks of the historical Christ but you've got to admit this man knows a thing or two about history.

From the Amazon.com website:

The Second Punic War: Being Chapters of the History of Rome by the Late Thomas Arnold ... by Thomas Arnold (Paperback - Feb 17, 2010)
Buy new: $38.75 $34.88


History of Rome: From the Gaulish Invasion to the End of the First Punic War by Thomas Arnold (Paperback - Feb 25, 2010)
Buy new: $47.75 $36.29


History of Rome: Early History to the Burning of Rome by the Gauls by Thomas Arnold (Paperback - Mar 7, 2010)
Buy new: $45.75 $34.77

History of the later Roman commonwealth,: From the end of the second Punic war to the death of Julius Caesar; and of the reign of Augustus; with a life of Trajan by Thomas Arnold (Unknown Binding - 1857)
2 used from $60.00

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=pd_lpo_..._m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=1YKBVHDE8TBT8VXKT0E9


erik von danniken published a lot of books too.
does that make him a good historian?
 
"If all the evidence is weighed carefully and fairly, it is indeed justifiable, according to the canons of historical research, to conclude that the tomb in which Jesus was buried was actually empty on the morning of the first Easter. And no shred of evidence has yet been discovered in literary sources, epigraphy or archaeology that would disprove this statement."

One can also imagine that at some point my butt will travel back in time to be worshiped as the golden calf by Moses' compatriots...

After all, there certainly is no shred of evidence that has yet been discovered in literary sources, epigraphy or archaeology that would disprove this statement.
 
This Thomas Arnold is the one from the Flashman books?
The Flashman chronicles are obviously historically correct due to their many accurate details.
The first gives a very poor impression of Thomas Arnold and he can therefore not be considered an authority on anything.
 
But there is evidence for the supernatural parts, just not proof, kind of like the big bang theory and life from non-life theory.

No, there is no evidence for the supernatural parts of the bible. Unless you also count the millions of Harry Potter books as evidence for Hogwarts. Do you do that, DOC? If not, you are engaging in special pleading. Are you engaging in special pleading, DOC?
 
You've got the right to your opinion just as these academics have the right to theirs:


If people are good only because they fear punishment, and hope for reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed.

- Albert Einstein



Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived.

- Isaac Asimov



I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires.

– Susan B. Anthony



I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.

- Mohandas K Gandhi



Remember, Jesus would rather constantly shame gays than let orphans have a family.

- Steven Colbert



I don’t believe in God. My god is patriotism. Teach a man to be a good citizen and you have solved the problem of life.

- Andrew Carnegie



Atheism leaves a man to sense, to philosophy, to natural piety, to laws, to reputation; all of which may be guides to an outward moral virtue, even if religion vanished; but religious superstition dismounts all these and erects an absolute monarchy in the minds of men.

– Francis Bacon



Shake off all fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God, because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear.

- Thomas Jefferson



And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence.

– Bertrand Russell



All thinking men are atheists.

- Ernest Hemingway



God should be executed for crimes against humanity.

– Bryan Emmanuel Gutierrez



Those who believe absurdities will commit atrocities.

- Voltaire



Lighthouses are more helpful then churches.

- Benjamin Franklin



What can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof.

- Christopher Hitchens



Men rarely (if ever) manage to dream up a God superior to themselves. Most Gods have the manners and morals of a spoiled child.

– Robert A Heinlein



Faith means not wanting to know what is true.

- Friedrich Nietzsche



Religion is an illusion and it derives its strength from the fact that it falls in with our instinctual desires.

- Sigmund Freud



I have never seen the slightest scientific proof of the religious ideas of heaven and hell, of future life for individuals, or of a personal God. So far as religion of the day is concerned, it is a damned fake. Religion is all bunk.

– Thomas Edison



The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one.

- George Bernard Shaw



A God who kept tinkering with the universe was absurd; a God who interfered with human freedom and creativity was tyrant. If God is seen as a self in a world of his own, an ego that relates to a thought, a cause separate from its effect. he becomes a being, not Being itself. An omnipotent, all‐knowing tyrant is not so different from earthly dictators who make everything and everybody mere cogs in the machine which they controlled. An atheism that rejects such a God is amply justified.

– Karen Armstrong



Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people.

- Karl Marx



Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith, I consider a capacity for it terrifying and absolutely vile.

- Kurt Vonnegut



Men never commit evil so fully and joyfully as when they do it for religious convictions.

- Blaise Pascal



I believe in God, only I spell it Nature.

- Frank Lloyd Wright



Our ignorance is God; what we know is science.

- Robert Ingersoll



Where knowledge ends, religion begins.

- Benjamin Disraeli



Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.

- Denis Diderot



Be thankful that you have a life, and forsake your vain and presumptuous desire for a second one.

– Richard Dawkins



Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

- Epicurus



A man is accepted into a church for what he believes and he is turned out for what he knows.

- Samuel Clemens



The constant assertion of belief is an indication of fear.

- Jiddu Krishnamurti



The whole thing is so patently infantile, so foreign to reality, that to anyone with a friendly attitude to humanity it is painful to think that the great majority of mortals will never be able to rise above this view of life.

- Sigmund Freud



Believing there is no God gives me more room for belief in family, people, love, truth, beauty, sex, Jell-o, and all the other things I can prove and that make this life the best life I will ever have.

– Penn Jillette



A belief which leaves no place for doubt is not a belief; it is a superstition.

- José Bergamín



"I refuse to prove that I exist,” says God, “for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing."

– Douglas Adams



Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful.

- Seneca the Younger



The church says the earth is flat, but I know that it is round, for I have seen the shadow on the moon, and I have more faith in a shadow than in the church.

- Ferdinand Magellan


The world holds two classes of men – intelligent men without religion, and religious men without intelligence.

– Abu’l‐Ala al Ma’arri



It’s an incredible con job when you think about it, to believe something now in exchange for something after death. Even corporations with their reward systems don’t try to make it posthumous.

- Gloria Steinem



One of the great tragedies of mankind is that morality has been hijacked by religion.

- Arthur C. Clarke



True wisdom is less presuming than folly. The wise man doubteth often, and changeth his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubteth not; he knoweth all things but his own ignorance.

- Nepherkheperure Waenre Akhenaten (Amenhotep IV)



:yahoo I win!
 
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Well you might not like Oxford professor Thomas Arnold whey he talks of the historical Christ but you've got to admit this man knows a thing or two about history.

<meaningless book list from Amazon snipped>


Was this post invisible to you when I first made it, DOC?


<snip>

From the article: The Resurrection: Fact or Fiction?

1. Roman History Scholar - Thomas Arnold -- Arnold wrote the three-volume History of Rome and held the chair of modern history and Oxford University. He was well acquainted with the value of evidence in establishing historical facts. This great scholar wrote:

"I have been used for many years to study the histories of other times, and to examine and weigh the evidence of those who have written about them, and I know of no one fact in the history of mankind which is proved by better and fuller evidence of every sort, to the understanding of a fair inquirer, than the great sign which God hath given us that Christ died and rose again from the dead."10.

<snip>


"Roman History Scholar"??!!??!!???

"Well acquainted with the value of evidence in establishing historical facts"???eleven??!!

Balderdash!


He was an ordained deacon, and a bigger apologist than even you.

Have you got a copy of this book?

Eminent Victorians by Lytton Strachey (Garden City Publishing, 1918)​


I have. Let's read some of it together, shall we?


Page 207

Thus it was natural that when the twelve noblemen and gentlemen who had determined to be guided entirely by the merit of the candidates, found among the testimonials pouring in upon them a letter from Dr. Hawkins, the Provost of Oriel, predicting that if they elected Mr. Thomas Arnold he would "change the face of education all through the public schools of England, " they hesitated no longer: obviously, Mr. Thomas Arnold was their man. He was elected therefore; received, as was fitting, priest's orders; became, as was no less fitting, a Doctor of Divinity; and in August, 1828, took up the duties of his office.

Priest's Orders????? Doctor of Divinity?????

Well, sure, he's going to be really objective, isn't he?



Pages 209-210

He married young, and settled down in the country as a private tutor for youths preparing for the Universities. There he remained for ten years -happy, busy and sufficiently prosperous. Occupied chiefly with his pupils, he nevertheless devoted much of his energy to wider interests. He delivered a series of sermons in the parish church; and he began to write a History of Rome, in the hope, as he said, that its tone might be such "that the strictest of what is called the Evangelical party would not object to putting it into the hands of their children." His views on the religious and political condition of the country began to crystallise. He was alarmed by the "want of Christian principle in the literature of the day", looking forward anxiously to "the approach of a greater struggle between good and evil than the world has yet seen"; and, after a serious conversation with Dr. Whately, began to conceive the necessity of considerable alterations in the Church Establishment. All who knew him during these years were profoundly impressed by the earnestness of his religious convictions and feelings, which, as one observer said, "were ever bursting forth. "It was impossible to disregard his "deep consciousness of the invisible world" and "the peculiar feeling of love and adoration which he entertained towards our Lord Jesus Christ." "His manner of awed reverence when speaking of God or of the Scriptures" was particularly striking. "No one could know him even a little, " said another friend, "and not be struck by his absolute wrestling with evil, so that like St. Paul he seemed to be battling with the wicked one, and yet with a feeling of God's help on his side."
my bolding​


Think he might have had an agenda running there, DOC?


I'll deal with your other pathetic Appeals to Authority in due course.


Ignore me if you wish, DOC, but you lose credibility when you do that.
 
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DOC, 80% of your posts refer to the number of posts you've made.


10% at the very most and that's being liberal . . .


So 200+ mentions of your post count in a single thread is acceptable, is it?


. . . so you are at least 70% off . . .


Sounds like a bargain.

The fact is DOC, it's impossible to tell exactly how many times you've said any particular thing because you have a compulsion to refer back to your own posts, no matter how many times they're discredited. With this kind of recursion going on it's quite possible that welshdean's estimate is closer than yours, and taking into consideration that you've completely destroyed you own credibilty it's not unlikely that the higher figure will readily be accepted by most people. Does that raise a red flag for you?


. . . so what does that say about the rest of your no new information post that does not respond to any quote of mine.


Nothing at all DOC. Believe it or not, responding to a 'quote' (I think you meant 'post') of yours is not a criterion for making a worthwhile contribution here. Why on Earth would you be so arrogant as to think it would be?


And any troll who has not read one of my posts could come in here and say something similar to what you said.


How and why do you think that a person who has never read a single one of your posts would randomly come here make a comment about your irritating and pointless habit of referring to your post count?

On the other hand, anyone who has read a few of your posts could easily come here and echo welshdean, and for most participants in the thread they'd be right on the money.

I know you haven't been paying attention, but this has actually happened numerous times in the last two years. Wanna dare me to quote a few instances?


Another no information attack the messenger post.


You are no messenger and you have no message. Don't flatter yourself.
 
But there is evidence for the supernatural parts, just not proof . . .


What utter nonsense.

There is not a shred of evidence for any supernatural event occurring anywhere, ever. Put up or shut up.


. . . kind of like the big bang theory . . .


O rly?


"According to the Big Bang model, the universe, originally in an extremely hot and dense state that expanded rapidly, has since cooled by expanding to the present diluted state, and continues to expand today. Based on the best available measurements as of 2010, the original state of the universe existed around 13.7 billion years ago, which is often referred to as the time when the Big Bang occurred. The theory is the most comprehensive and accurate explanation supported by scientific evidence and observations."​

is just like:


"Goddidit."​

????


. . . and life from non-life theory.


The word you're looking for is abiogenesis, DOC. I know it's a big one, but perhaps if you practice in front of a mirror or something . . .

In any case, one piece of evidence for abiogenisis is currently typing this post. There are at least six billion almost-identical pieces of evidence, and countless billions more who have better things to do.

Life exists, DOC, where once it didn't. It harms your credibility when you demonstrate that you are unaware of this.
 
I think the term "alive" wouldn't be entirely accurate. "Lurching zombie thread of logical doom" is perhaps a better descriptor.
 
This Thomas Arnold is the one from the Flashman books?
The Flashman chronicles are obviously historically correct due to their many accurate details.
The first gives a very poor impression of Thomas Arnold and he can therefore not be considered an authority on anything.


Oh, is that who he's talking about? I thought he meant the bloke that used to be married to that horrid Roseanne Barr creature.

Tom Arnold
 
But there is evidence for the supernatural parts, just not proof, kind of like the big bang theory and life from non-life theory.

Wait, what? When the hell did this happen? People, ya gotta let a girl know when earth-shattering, world-changing information like this turns up. There's evidence, if not mathematical proof, of the supernatural bits of the Bible! The zombies, the virgin birth, the sheer impossibility of a tax collector being chosen as an apostle and evangelist?! Gracious, someone's won the MDC--could be Jesus, maybe Doctor Who, perhaps Simon--doesn't matter: miracles have been affirmed. And nobody woke me up??!! Seriously, what were you think....

What's that? No new evidence, you say?.....Oh, no evidence at all. Just the same moldy old quote mines and logical fallacies. Gotcha.

Carry on.
 
But there is evidence for the supernatural parts, just not proof, kind of like the big bang theory and life from non-life theory.
Ok,the bible says Jesus's mother is called Mary and she was a virgin.

You can start with the mundane and provide evidence that the bible is correct and Jesus's mother was called Mary.

Then for the main course evidence she was a virgin.
 
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