single bullet theory is not true says Soily

[TheRedWorm]

You know, I've read through all this and I'm even more convinced that Oswald did it all by himself. The only question I have is this:

If it is true that Oswald was a patsy, so freaking what? How long has it been? Do you think the mysterious shooter(s) and co-conspirators are still alive? Do you think, if they are still alive, that there is any way any of the JFK conspiracy believers could convince a jury of anything? Not the way they present themselves, unless they think acting like closed-minded buffoons is how you sway people.

Sorry, Oswald did it, but even if, by some twist, he didn't, they got away with it, and there's nothing you can do to change it.
Deal with it.
You lose, either way.

Too true. I think they pursue this crap because they feel that they are special in some way, having "knowledge" that so few others have.

 

[Fourbrick]

Again, and?

Unless Oswald changed the sling, subsequently, then they are different rifles.
Do you think that is what happened?

 

[Fourbrick]

How can you tell what the photos in your second link are when they are of such poor quality? I can not find a scan that is any good. Can you?

Ranb

Sorry that your screen is such poor resolution. However the photos shown on my screen are sharp enough to see that all three show the gun straps are different to the one on the rifle shown by the Dallas Police department.

If you look at the first photo, it shows the bottom of the strap to be bent and thin. The strap shown in the police photo wouldn't bend like that.

The middle photo shows a very thin strap as against a wide strap shown by the police.

Ditto for the right picture.

 

[TraneWreck]

Factoid.

[...]

Are you blind?

Harry Holmes lied to the WC.

And these aren't the only regulations that were broken. Oswald also didn't fill out the form 2162, which was mandatory for sales of firearms through the post. He also didn't have the magistrates certificate of good character which was mandatory for buying handguns through the post. And this was done by a well known commie agitator in the middle of the cold war, right under the nose of an FBI informant who was leaking peoples postal behavior to the FBI and secret service, and during Senator Dodd's subcommittee investigation into the gun mail-order business and during the CIA's illegal domestic Mail Watch programme which was keeping tabs on virtually anyone who received anything from Fair play for Cuba, American Communist Party, letters from the Soviet Union (and which John Newman in Oswald and the CIA has shown Oswald has been on the watch list before)

This is so, so silly.

First of all, it would be nice if you included links to these documents or at least citations. I don't know where you're getting these and they're contrary to other parts of the Warren Commission so I'd like to read them in context.

Second, realize what you're arguing, here. Somehow this massive, secret conspiracy is able to twist and contort all available evidence to make ALL PHYSICAL CLUES lead directly to Oswald, but the whole thing hinges on someone lying to the Warren Commission about postal regulations that are publicly available.

This is a very, very stupid premise.

Your entire argument is completely negated by one postal worker putting a slip in a PO Box without checking the names.

Which is the more likely scenario? The idiot-genius massive conspiracy revealed by their inability to understand postal regulations? Or a local branch that was lax in their interpretation of the rules?

If they could forge the order form, all the pictures of Oswald with the gun, put his palm print on the rifle, plant bullets that match the rifle found in the exact spot that ALL PHYSICAL EVIDENCE shows the bullets had to come from...and so on, yet they couldn't forge a goddamn post office box slip.

All conspiracy theories end up at this point. With 9-11, we're supposed to believe that this awesome undertaking was flawlessly executed to justify a war with Iraq, yet no one remembered to put Iraqis in the planes. Now you're telling us that the most perfect crime in human history, involving hundreds of officials on all levels, is revealed through a faulty understanding of post office regulations.

Unreal.

 

[TraneWreck]

Compare the gunsling on the rifle shown by the Police as being Oswald's@

[...]

with the one of Oswald in his yard. (centre photo)

http://www.thislooksshopped.com/images/oswald3_lg.jpg


Same gun?

Your argument is that variations in a removable strap prove that the guns aren't the same?

I guess I become a different person every time I change my underwear.

More of this nonsense notion that complicated, flawlessly executed and perfectly secret conspiracies will reveal themselves in niggling little details. They couldn't find a strap that matched the one in the photo?

 

[Soily]

Too true. I think they pursue this crap because they feel that they are special in some way, having "knowledge" that so few others have.

Rule 122 of the debunkers manual - "Skeptics question an official story not because it is wanting in some regard, but because in our amateur pseudo-psychological opinion they like to feel they somehow have secret knowledge that makes them special."

Rule 123 - Mention Occam's Razor, but spectacularly fail to understand what it means.

 

[Fourbrick]

Your argument is that variations in a removable strap prove that the guns aren't the same?

I guess I become a different person every time I change my underwear.

More of this nonsense notion that complicated, flawlessly executed and perfectly secret conspiracies will reveal themselves in niggling little details. They couldn't find a strap that matched the one in the photo?

So if the straps are different, then you mean Oswald changed the straps?If he didn't and there is no indication anywhere that he did, (why would he anyway?) then the rifles were different and there is a major problem.

Maybe when you change your underwear you do become a different person. (whatever turns you on, I suppose) but that doesn't alter the above.

It is because of niggling little details that cases fall apart,.

 

[Dave Rogers]

Rule 122 of the debunkers manual - "Skeptics question an official story not because it is wanting in some regard, but because in our amateur pseudo-psychological opinion they like to feel they somehow have secret knowledge that makes them special."

You must be reading a fake manual. We don't use the word "skeptics" to describe people who start from a belief system then adjust the evidence to fit it.

Rule 123 - Mention Occam's Razor, but spectacularly fail to understand what it means.

Rule 17 of the conspiracy theorist's manual: put things you've made up on the spur of the moment into numbered lists, because that makes them look like they're an authoritative source.

Dave

 

[TraneWreck]

So if the straps are different, then you mean Oswald changed the straps?If he didn't and there is no indication anywhere that he did, (why would he anyway?) then the rifles were different and there is a major problem.

Maybe when you change your underwear you do become a different person. (whatever turns you on, I suppose) but that doesn't alter the above.

It is because of niggling little details that cases fall apart,.

No, not even close. It's a really dumb point.

The only difference is what looks like a leather pad. Maybe it came with the rifle, but Oswald couldn't decide if liked it on or off. Maybe he had multiple straps that he switched around. Maybe he went to the local military surplus store, paid with cash and didn't keep the receipt.

It's a stupid, trivial concept with many, many available answers that don't involve magical conspiracies.

 

[RoboTimbo]

The 6th floor is one big room the idea that Oswald could do this when the floor is full of workmen is fanciful. And you speak as if these boxes were empty, they were piled up with books, no easy task to simply toss the boxes into a makeshift nest as if they weighed nothing, especially for a slight man like oswald. 'oh pardon me boys, i'm just going to take this large rifle shaped package behind this snipers nest I constructed in front of you. And yet nobody saw him. But even worse that the unlikeyhood of it, is that Oswald would choose to build his nest on the floor with workman on it. That's almost as inexplicable as his decision to buy traceable weapons by mail. And you know you're going to have a hard time dismissing Bonnie Ray Williams, since his story is corroborated by both other witneses and the time of a known event.

So you're saying that nobody could have built the sniper's nest? And yet there obviously was one? How do you reconcile that, Soily?

 

[Fourbrick]

Double post

 

[Fourbrick]

No, not even close. It's a really dumb point.

The only difference is what looks like a leather pad. Maybe it came with the rifle, but Oswald couldn't decide if liked it on or off. Maybe he had multiple straps that he switched around. Maybe he went to the local military surplus store, paid with cash and didn't keep the receipt.

It's a stupid, trivial concept with many, many available answers that don't involve magical conspiracies.

Yeh. Maybe

 

[RoboTimbo]

Unless Oswald changed the sling, subsequently, then they are different rifles.
Do you think that is what happened?

Unless you can show that it is impossible for Oswald to have changed the sling, then Occam's Razor applies here. Do you think it is impossible for Oswald to have changed the sling?

 

[Fourbrick]

Certainly isn't, but nowhere is it mentioned that it was.

 

[RoboTimbo]

Harry Holmes lied to the WC.

And these aren't the only regulations that were broken. Oswald also didn't fill out the form 2162, which was mandatory for sales of firearms through the post. He also didn't have the magistrates certificate of good character which was mandatory for buying handguns through the post. And this was done by a well known commie agitator in the middle of the cold war, right under the nose of an FBI informant who was leaking peoples postal behavior to the FBI and secret service, and during Senator Dodd's subcommittee investigation into the gun mail-order business and during the CIA's illegal domestic Mail Watch programme which was keeping tabs on virtually anyone who received anything from Fair play for Cuba, American Communist Party, letters from the Soviet Union (and which John Newman in Oswald and the CIA has shown Oswald has been on the watch list before)

And yet the rifle and revolver were both shipped to that PO Box and not returned. How do you reconcile that, Soily? They were shipped to an alias that Oswald was positively shown to have used elsewhere. They are positively shown to have been in Oswald's possession. The revolver he had in his possession when he was cornered in the theater after he murdered Tippit. The rifle had his prints on it, even in a place that was only accessible when the rifle was broken down. How do you reconcile these things, Soily?

 

[RoboTimbo]

Certainly isn't, but nowhere is it mentioned that it was.

Nowhere is it mentioned that it is possible? Is that what you're saying?

 

[Fourbrick]

No. Not mentioned that it was possible, but not mentioned that it had happened.

And why do you think the Dallas police evenytaully released a photo which had a cut out matching the photos?

http://www.pimall.com/nais/news/backyard.html

 

[Soily]

This is so, so silly.

First of all, it would be nice if you included links to these documents or at least citations. I don't know where you're getting these and they're contrary to other parts of the Warren Commission so I'd like to read them in context.

Second, realize what you're arguing, here. Somehow this massive, secret conspiracy is able to twist and contort all available evidence to make ALL PHYSICAL CLUES lead directly to Oswald, but the whole thing hinges on someone lying to the Warren Commission about postal regulations that are publicly available.

This is a very, very stupid premise.

Your entire argument is completely negated by one postal worker putting a slip in a PO Box without checking the names.

Which is the more likely scenario? The idiot-genius massive conspiracy revealed by their inability to understand postal regulations? Or a local branch that was lax in their interpretation of the rules?

If they could forge the order form, all the pictures of Oswald with the gun, put his palm print on the rifle, plant bullets that match the rifle found in the exact spot that ALL PHYSICAL EVIDENCE shows the bullets had to come from...and so on, yet they couldn't forge a goddamn post office box slip.

All conspiracy theories end up at this point. With 9-11, we're supposed to believe that this awesome undertaking was flawlessly executed to justify a war with Iraq, yet no one remembered to put Iraqis in the planes. Now you're telling us that the most perfect crime in human history, involving hundreds of officials on all levels, is revealed through a faulty understanding of post office regulations.

Unreal.

This is both a huge series of false dilemmas and massive lapse into amnesia on your part. Since all of your physical evidence is either hopelessly tainted and suspect or showing the opposite of what you say it shows, the fact that the postal aspects of the case are also so suspect is just another blow to your simple minded 'a man, a gun, a corpse' argument which is what your case essentially boils down to.

You can't prove Oswald fired the shots - evidence suggests he didn't.
You can't put Oswald on the 6th floor - evidence suggest he wasn't.
you can't prove your shot pattern - evidence suggest we haven't got a clue.
You can't prove CE399 had anything to do with the assassination - evidence suggests it didn't.
You can't prove any of the fragments in Connolly were anything to do with CE399 or Oswald - evidence suggests they weren't

And that's just 5 points out of dozens.

I also think that shifting between different areas of the case isn't very enlightening, so perhaps we could stick to one area at a time and debate that before moving onto another area? This thread is meant to be about the SBT!

 

[Soily]

No. Not mentioned that it was possible, but not mentioned that it had happened.

And why do you think the Dallas police evenytaully released a photo which had a cut out matching the photos?

http://www.pimall.com/nais/news/backyard.html

For what its worth, I think they were trying to see if it was possible to fake the photos.

And I also think they're probably genuine (likewise the Zapurder film, genuine of course, there is no question). For too long the debate has been about whether the backyard photos are fake or not, when the real issue is what story those photos are telling and it isn't what the LNs say.

 

[Fourbrick]

But, Soily, if the backyard photos are proved to be fakes, then the whole case falls apart.