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Controlled demolition vs. the towers collapsing

Dave Rogers said:
Incidentally, energy density and temperature are completely different properties, and describing an energy density as higher than a temperature makes as much sense as describing a colour as louder than a parallelogram.

Dave
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Yikes. I couldn't quite fathom what he was saying. Maybe "the temperature of a fire that only released 40% of the energy contained in X amount of thermite?" I still don't see the point; what interrupted the reaction? Is 40% burn the threshold where the thermite slides off the column vertically?

As you pointed out, no mechanism has been proposed for keeping the "thermite" in contact with the column, except for someone who brought up "ceramic collars" the other day. We didn't see any of those in the rubble, however.
 
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Evidence for explosives....

1. scattered accounts from survivors of noises that they describe as sounding "like" explosives.

Evidence against (or lack of evidence for) explosives...
A
1. no physical evidence of explosives such as residue, caps, det cord...
2. no eye witness acounts of explosives going off.
3. no series of explosions just prior to collapse, as would be seen in a cd
4. no blast injuries listed in the limited data recorded and presented from er visits.
5. (and most important) other more plausible explanations for loud noises that may sound like explosions.

TAM:)
 
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Dave Rogers said:
Incidentally, energy density and temperature are completely different properties, and describing an energy density as higher than a temperature makes as much sense as describing a colour as louder than a parallelogram.

Dave
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Stop shouting! You're bluing my rhombus!
 
ergo said:
Why should McQueen do it? Why didn't the original investigation do it?
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NIST interviewed all the eyewitness firemen and concluded that none of them saw or heard anything consistent with detonation of man-made explosives.
 
Why is it that when all the steel pulverisation and steel flinging is meant to be occurring (when the buildings collapse) no videos pick up any of these explosive detonations? Strange that!
 
Edx said:
Why is it that when all the steel pulverisation and steel flinging is meant to be occurring (when the buildings collapse) no videos pick up any of these explosive detonations? Strange that!
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"steel pulverisation"

Can't be done, unless it's in a steel mill where the steel is ground up. No steel mill at GZ in the 9 months of clean up. No steel mill at Fresh Kills either!

"no videos pick up any of these explosive detonations?"

Because they were never there to begin with. Another failed education for the education system! :mad:
 
T.A.M. said:
No, what i have consistently said is noone has reported a SERIES of loud explosions. Please provide me evidency to the contrary.

TAM:)
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Beachnut already provided the quotes indicating loud explosions (plural) and without the word "like" in them.
 
Java Man said:
Beachnut already provided the quotes indicating loud explosions (plural) and without the word "like" in them.
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"Explosion" is a good word for "loud noise".

So what? Plenty of people heard loud noises on 9/11.
 
carlitos said:
As you pointed out, no mechanism has been proposed for keeping the "thermite" in contact with the column, except for someone who brought up "ceramic collars" the other day. We didn't see any of those in the rubble, however.
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They didn't find them because they were crushed by the fall. Just like the blackbox was.
 
The really sad thing is that the quotes beachnut posted referred to bodies hitting the ground. I can't imagine what that must have been like when they realized what it was.
 
ergo said:
Why should McQueen do it? Why didn't the original investigation do it?
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Because there was no reason to investigate it before the idiot MacQueen started flapping his useless gums.

MacQueen stuffed a whole pile of compost into the meme and called it truffels. It is up to him to be sure that what he puts in there is correct. He cannot be forgiven for posting such dangerous garbage without first verifying it.
 
Java Man said:
Beachnut already provided the quotes indicating loud explosions (plural) and without the word "like" in them.
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Series...boom boom boom boom boom boom boom boom. Each roughly the same distance time wise, apart, about 1-5 seconds max between each...

Go watch a REAL CONTROLLED DEMOLITION and you will, I hope, get my point. I'm not holding my breath on either.

TAM:)
 
Java Man said:
But he didn't say "it was like a gas tank going off", "it was like a gas pipe exploding", "it was like a car blowing up", "it was like a boiler exploding", "it was like a nitrogen (or any other compressed gas) tank exploding", "it was like an AC unit compressor exploding", etc. He said, of all the possible causes, "it was like a bomb", "huge". And he's a trained person. Why would a trained person choose that wording of all?
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Yet, despite the fact that the firefighter had probably never heard a real 'bomb' going off before, the circumstances and situation he and many found themselves in leads to a degree of uncertainty and confusion. Ya know those traumatic life events when the crap hits the fan and all those around lose their heads and begin to guess, assume and speculate as to what is happening. Reality sucks sometimes. Mass hysteria, panic, fight or flight mode kicks in. Our perceptions change.

As you have stated, he was a trained firefighter. A firefighter with no 'bomb' training whatsoever. No bomb detection training. No bomb recognition training. No bomb training whatsoever. A firefighter who will certainly have training in dealing with many other explosive substances .......except bombs.

A firefighter in the thick of mass confusion and panic, who subsequently describes a moment in time by using the most common phrase/wording we would expect him to use to describe a loud noise being made during a terrorist attack.... 'it sounded like a bomb'...'huge'...........but???? Victims hitting the groud were described as 'sounding like bombs'. Explosions inside the buildings probably 'sounded like bombs'. To him and many others it probably did sound like 'bombs'. We regularly and routinely perceive all loud explosions or unexplained loud noises as sounding like a 'bomb going off' simply because it is the easiest way of explaining what we think we hear, particularly in a such a situation were the words 'terroism' and 'terrorists' are also being used and the locality is falling apart around your ears. Reality sucks.

Explosives and explosions are two seperate issues. One creates the other, and one is not reliant on the other. Stop interpreting the two as meaning they belong together..........they dont. Rational people know this.
 
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This has to be the longest circular argument we have engaged in the history of the JREF. I am done arguing it with them. Let the thread remain as is for posterity. I think we should keep note of it, however, so when ever another truther comes here trying to argue about it (which you know WILL happen), we can just point to this thread.

TAM:)
 
Java Man said:
I beg your pardon? What else can a post like his "plural ≠ SERIES" expect as a response? respect? consideration? give me a break!
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he was making a very clear point, completely relevant to your comment. He was letting you know that you were intentionally, or unintentionally making the mistake of equating MORE THEN ONE explosion, with a SERIES of explosions. A series is a repetitive set of something, similar in nature, occurring at a relatively fixed interval.

TAM:)
 
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