single bullet theory is not true says Soily

[Soily]

My mistake, you're right about Brennan's occupation, but I don't see why this makes him less credible of a witness. He did see Oswald and later identified him. His description was a young white male around 5'10 even before seeing Oswald after his arrest. You fail to address the three men who heard the shots fired from above, and the other witnesses who saw Oswald with the rifle just before the assassination.

"Mr. BALL. Well, now, when you talked to the FBI on the 23d day of November, you said that you went up to the sixth floor about 12 noon with your lunch, and you stayed only about 3 minutes, and seeing no one you came down to the fifth floor, using the stairs at the west end of the building. Now, do you think you stayed longer than 3 minutes up there?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I am sure I stayed longer than 3 minutes.
Mr. BALL. Do you remember telling the FBI you only stayed 3 minutes up there?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I do not remember telling them I only stayed 3 minutes.
Mr. BALL. And then on this 14th of January 1964, when you talked to Carter and Griffin, they reported that you told them you went down to the fifth floor around 12:05 p.m., and that around 12:30 p.m. you were watching the Presidential parade. Now, do you remember telling them you went down there about 12:05 p.m.?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I remember telling the fellows that--they asked me first, they said, "How long did it take you to finish the sandwich?" I said, "Maybe 5 to 10 minutes, maybe 15 minutes." Just like I said here. I don't remember saying for a definite answer that it was 5 minutes.
Mr. BALL. Well, is it fair to say that you do not remember the exact time now?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. "

Even if William's testimony was correct,Who is to say that he didn't set up the sniper's nest earlier? Oswald could have done all of that in 10 minutes without a problem. It only takes 2-3 minutes to assemble the gun, and a minute to set up the sniper's nest. It would be foolish for Oswald to have everything set up way in advance. Others could have seen the assembled rifle. Since there was undoubtedly three shots fired from the 6th floor, with no one else seeing Oswald at the time of the assassination, it is obvious that that's who was firing the shots. This would it explain why he was the only one who left the depository, why he didn't fill out one order on his clipboard, why he left his wedding ring and 170$ cash for Marina, why he later grabbed his pistol and shot Tippit, and why after he was arrested raised his fist in the air for victory. Just the kind of thing you would expect if the man was innocent..

Haha unbelievable stuff. Why do you feel the need to lie? Raised his fist in victory indeed. He did that and then vehemenly protested his innocence even when he was dying did he? His MO in the walker shooting was supposedly to write everything down, maps, plans, photos, mea cupla, then confess to it afterwards. Yet this time he absolutely denied any involvement even on his dead bed. Weird. Bugliosi loves his wedding ring factoid, conveniently forgetting Oswald also left his wallet too, a fact that could just as easily square with someone in a rush and forgetting them. Bulgiosi of course doesn't like to talk about the wallet Oswald left on the dresser because when Oswald was arrested the police found his wallet on him.


And the fact you rely on Brennan so much show how desperate your are. He's a total clown:

My first instinct was to look back up to that man on the sixth floor. "Was he going to fire again?" I wondered. By now the motorcade was beginning to speed up and in only a couple of seconds the President's car had disappeared under the triple underpass. To my amazement the man still stood there in the window! He didn't appear to be rushed. There was no particular emotion visible on his face except for a slight smirk. It was a look of satisfaction, as if he had accomplished what he had set out to do. He seemed pleased that no one had realized where the shots were coming from. Then he did something that puzzled me. Very slowly and deliberatley he set the rifle on its butt and just stayed there for a moment to savor what he had done, like a hunter who had "bagged his buck." Then, with no sense of haste, he simply moved slowly away from the window until he disappeared from my line of vision.

Haha! Love the numerous made up details like the smirk. I'm surprised he didn't stop to do an evil cackle like Skeletor too. And you think this clown is a reliable witness. A man who kept changing his story, a man who describes things that are impossible, such as the height of the killer because he was stood up, which Oswald wasn't. A man who couldn't pick Oswald out of a lineup and later lied about this saying he was scared he was the target of a communist plot. Pathetic.

 

[Meadmaker]

It's also worth pointing out the HSCA ignore loads of their own evidence, such as their conclusion that the boxes in the snipers nest were moved by someone sometime between the last shot and approximately 2 minutes later, when an invisible Oswald was springing unseen by people in his path down the stairs on the way to his meeting with Baker no more than 90 seconds later. The HSCA also concluded Kennedy was probably killed as a result of a conspiracy, a result they came to on the basis of more than just the acoustic evidence. Sprague, Blakey, and Billings all believed in a conspiracy.

Well, they were a pretty pathetic bunch, and their conclusions were indeed laughable. I wouldn't put much stock in much of what came out of that committee, but since you were citing a portion of their conclusion regarding the bullet wounds, I figured it was relevant to note that their conclusion about that wound was that it was caused by a bullet from Lee Oswald's rifle, as were all of the wounds on everyone in that car.

 

[dafydd]

It's also worth pointing out the HSCA ignore loads of their own evidence, such as their conclusion that the boxes in the snipers nest were moved by someone sometime between the last shot and approximately 2 minutes later, when an invisible Oswald was springing unseen by people in his path down the stairs on the way to his meeting with Baker no more than 90 seconds later. The HSCA also concluded Kennedy was probably killed as a result of a conspiracy, a result they came to on the basis of more than just the acoustic evidence. Sprague, Blakey, and Billings all believed in a conspiracy.

Why do you need to believe in a conspiracy? Is your life really that boring?

 

[Soily]

Bugliosi, which is where you're getting most of this from is very attached to little factoids of his own, that he repeatedly uses to embroider his tendentious prosecutors case. But like most of what Bulgiosi says, a cursory poke and it all falls apart.

The rifle in the Paines garage.
Ruth Paine (and Michael) was an avowed pacifist who would not allow guns in her home or her garage, as she testified. She didn't know anything about this supposed rifle in the garage. The rifle wrapped in a soft blanket was loaded and unloaded by Ruth and Michael Paine from their car when they transported the Oswald's possessions, yet neither of them noticed any rifle. The rifle was in their garage wrapped in a blanket and neither of them noticed. Michael Paine even said he'd seen the backyard photos pre-assassination, yet he loads and unloads the rifle wrapped in a blanket from the back of the Paine's car and doesn't notice. Michael Paine in particular also lied about the Minox spy camera found by the Dallas police so his trustworthiness is already highly suspect. No evidence the blanket ever contained a rifle was found, and the alleged shirt and blanket fibre evidence is null and void anyway because all the Oswald evidence was stored together by the DP, and even spread out on the floor together and photographed, as shown in Jesse Curry's book (a scan of which i think i have at home so i'll post it later) . Nobody that Thursday saw Oswald with a large piece of packing paper and some tape, where was it? Nobody in that small house saw or heard him make the bag or go to the garage and get his rifle and put it in the bag.

Further more, no ammo, ammo boxes, rifle cleaning equipment or any other paraphernalia was ever found. Instead we are to believe Oswald owned a rifle and 4 bullets. Nobody who knew one rifle from another had ever seen Lee in possession of it, nobody ever saw him shoot it. There's no evidence that Oswald had practiced firing a rifle at all in nearly 5 years.

The reality is there is absolutely no evidence that rifle was ever in that bag.

Lee visited his wife at the Paines the previous evening, conflicting with his usual routine.
The arrangement hadn't been going on long enough for there to be a routine and Oswald had only been working at the TSBD for a few weeks. And what Bugliosis doesn't mention is the fact that Ruth Paine was the one who actually changed her routine, because she was planning to have a child's birthday party at her house on Saturday, as likely an explanation was that Lee wanted to spend a bit of time with his wife and kid without having a house full of screaming kids on Saturday morning.

The 3 amigos on floor five heard shells landed on the floor and the bolt action of the rifle.
Bugliosi loves this one. Sadly its nonsense. Of the 3 men, only Norman ever mentioned the falling of the shells or the sound of the bolt action. Unfortunately, his first and most contemporary statement makes no mention of any of this, these details only getting mysteriously inserted into the story in interviews later on:

Some of the testimony has been challenged in the past by critics of the Warren Commission but no one has demonstrated how much these stories have in common, nor examined the implications of the extraordinary parallels. In each instance these witnesses first gave totally different testimony to the FBI; in each instance their testimony changed the first week in December; in each instance the new story surfaced during interviews conducted by the same three Secret Service agents; in each instance the story influenced the Warren Commission's interpretation of the events of November 22; and finally, all three stories were important enough to be included in the Commission's one-volume Report. And the parallels do not end there. None of these stories holds up under close scrutiny. A review of the evidence casts serious doubt on their credibility and suggests that all of them evolved days after the assassination in order to support a particular interpretation of certain evidence, an interpretation which is inconsistent with the real facts.

During that interview, Norman made no mention of hearing the shells and the bolt action of the rifle. He told the FBI that after the first shot:

... he stuck his head from the window and looked upward toward the roof but could see nothing because small particles of dirt were falling from above him. He stated two additional shots were fired after he had pulled his head back in from the window.[2]

This is Norman's earliest, most credible statement and there are no falling shells here only falling "particles of dirt" which struck Norman when he stuck his head out the window. This original version is buttressed by testimony from two other sources.

Norman's allegation that he heard the shells hit the floor and the bolt action of the rifle surfaced in toto in SS491. Twelve days after the assassination and eight days after his interview by the FBI, Norman's startling disclosure made its belated appearance.

Missing entirely from this new version is the description of Norman putting his head out the window and looking up toward the roof, a gesture which was witnessed by at least four people. Norman permanently eliminated this event from this testimony at this point. Also, the particles of dirt, which he told the FBI fell outside the building and prevented him from seeing anything when he looked up, are changed in this version to "some dust." This dust fell "from the ceiling" inside the building and the intended implication appears to be that it was dislodged by the shells hitting the floor of the sniper's nest.

This then is Norman's new story. Not only are the sounds of the gunman added for the first time, but one part of his earlier statement to the FBI is excised and another part altered to accommodate the new information. This new story transformed Norman from an inconsequential witness to one of major importance who provided firsthand evidence linking the shots that were fired at 12:30 to the hulls that were found on the sixth floor 40 minutes later. This important information became the focus of his interview three months later before the Warren Commission

http://mysite.verizon.net/respxxbt/dukelane/ss491.htm

Unique serial number on rifle
Nope, thats a LN factoid that doesn't get challenged often enough. The serial numbers were not unique. Of the several million Carcanos knocking about at that time, we already know without searching that there were 2 others with the same serial number. Michael Lattimer had one which he used to try and recreate the shooting in his book kenendy and Lincoln, and Klein's had one in 1962 and one in 1963 (the one Oswald allegedly ordered).


Some more information on the Norman, Williams, Jarman story here, which is yet more evidence to the growing mountain that shows Oswald was not on the 6th floor at the time of the shooting.

Junior Jarman and Hank Norman did not begin their walk to the fifth floor until they'd heard - either over a police radio or through the buzz of the crowd after someone else had heard it - that the motorcade was on Main Street. This was mentioned on Channel 2 two times, once at 12:22 and again at either 12:26 or 12:27, but the earliest time 12:22.

They walked from the front of the building, up Houston Street and entered the building, first noting that the passenger elevator was not in its first-floor stop, then walking around to the freight elevator, which they rode up to, according to their testimony, the fifth floor. There was nobody else on that floor as they made their way to the front windows. This walk and elevator ride - the latter at one floor every six seconds, or 24 seconds total - could have taken as little as a minute and a half, possibly a little shorter or longer.

Bonnie Ray Williams had been on the sixth floor, claimed that he'd heard footsteps or something below him, and rode the passenger elevator - that he'd taken up during the lunch hour - down to the fifth floor, where he joined his compatriots at the front windows. Only Hank Norman equivocated about whether Bonnie Ray was there when he and Junior had gotten there or if he joined them later; the other two agreed he joined the two of them later.

Also on both the fifth and sixth floors, "getting stock," was "great big husky fellow" Jack Dougherty, whom none of the three claimed to have seen.

If Bonnie Ray ate his lunch where he said he did and where remnants were later found, there is no way anyone could have been in the southeast corner without being seen or heard by him: anyone who's stood at the end of the next set of windows from the "sniper's nest" exhibit on the sixth floor would agree.

If anyone planned on shooting at Kennedy, they'd have had to have been ready to do so no later than 12:25 when the motorcade was scheduled to arrive (five minutes before the 12:30 luncheon at the Trade Mart), and earlier in case the motorcade was ahead of schedule.

If Hank and Junior didn't start to go upstairs until after 12:22 and Bonnie Ray was upstairs until after the other two had arrived on the fifth floor, then Bonnie Ray was on the sixth floor even later than the latest he'd estimated (12:15), to within a minute or so before 12:25 or - if Hank and Junior didn't start up until after the 12:26/27 broadcast of the motorcade's being on Main Street, as late as 12:28 or even 12:29.

Either of those times being so, Bonnie Ray was on the sixth floor when whoever was setting up to shoot was there, and within 20 feet or less from him or them. That being so, if the shooter was Oswald, by the time Williams had much to say to anyone, Oswald was dead: what harm could there possibly be in identifying him as the shooter, eyewitnessed by someone who knew him?

When he heard what he thought was a "backfire," Jack Dougherty was standing "10 feet west of the west elevator," that is, right smack dab where the fleeing Oswald had to have run to get downstairs in time to meet Baker & Truly in the second floor lunch room. Dougherty remained there with the gate up until after Truly yelled up to "let that elevator loose" and began his ascent with Baker by stairs. If Oswald didn't run by - or even into - Jack Dougherty, then he didn't run down the stairs to the lunchroom.

There's more to the story, but this is sufficient to mark the main points: Williams didn't see Oswald and neither did Jack Dougherty, ergo Oswald wasn't there. If they saw anyone else, they didn't say ... and if they saw anyone other than Oswald, they may very well have had something to fear. But if Oswald had done what he supposedly did, then there'd have been no reason not to identify him.

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=13779&st=15

 

[Fourbrick]

There is no 'if' about it. He killed officer JD Tippit with the same revolver that he was apprehended with in the theater. F

That's not what a neighbour said about the "people" who were involved in Tippitt's murder.. see the Aquila Clemens interview.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XRToGPV4W7M

More about the two men seen at the murder scene later.

 

[RoboTimbo]

That's not what a neighbour said about the "people" who were involved in Tippitt's murder.. see the Aquila Clemens interview.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XRToGPV4W7M

More about the two men seen at the murder scene later.

I don't do youtube. What does it say?

 

[SpitfireIX]

Further more, no ammo, ammo boxes, rifle cleaning equipment or any other paraphernalia was ever found.

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?absPageId=374706

Two empty boxes marked "6.5 Italian ammunition"

Unique serial number on rifle
Nope, thats a LN factoid that doesn't get challenged often enough. The serial numbers were not unique. Of the several million Carcanos knocking about at that time, we already know without searching that there were 2 others with the same serial number. Michael Lattimer had one which he used to try and recreate the shooting in his book kenendy and Lincoln, and Klein's had one in 1962 and one in 1963 (the one Oswald allegedly ordered).

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.assassination.jfk/browse_thread/thread/637657ce54aca476

I can't recall who asked me to check with Dr. Lattimer re. the notation in his book that the serial # of the Mannlicher-Carcano he used for his tests was C-2766 (the same ser# as the Mannlicher-Carcano found in the TSBD), but I asked him about it and today I received a letter from him with the answer. It's simple. It was a error...."..the book was printed before we noticed the error and it was too late to correct it."

John Canal

As for the duplicate serial number in the gun seller's records, if you'd ever worked in any kind of business you would know that clerks misread, miswrite, and mistype numbers all the time. Considering that no one has ever produced credible evidence of any Carcanos with duplicate serial numbers, the most likely explanation is that someone miscopied another weapon's number.

 

[Fourbrick]

Robo. This is transcription of her interview except for the very beginning, which I find hard to understand.

"Q “ Did you know Officer Tippitt?”

A.C. "Yeh, I saw him.. many times”

Q "Did you hear the shots?

AC. “Yes, I heard the shots”

Q “What did you do?”

A.C. "I ran out into the street… and looked down the street. I ran down the street where he was lying, and I looked at him."

Q “ Now when you heard the shots, and you went out of the house, did you see a man with a gun?”

A.C. “Yes I did”

Q “What was he doing?”

A.C. “ Oh he was reloading.. I think he was reloading his gun.”

Q “And how would you describe that man?”

A.C.” He was kinda chunky.. He was kinda heavy. He wasn’t a big man”

Q “ Was he tall or short?”

A.C. “He was a kinda short guy”

Q “Short and heavy?”

A.C. “Yeh”

Q ”Was there any other man?”

A.C. "Yeh . One on the other side of the street…all I know, he throw him the gun.”

Q “Mrs Clemens.. the man who had the gun.. Did he make any motion at all to the other man across the street?”

A.C.”No more than throw him the gun”

Q “ And then what happened to the man with the gun?”

A.C. “He unloaded and reloaded.”

Q “And what did the other man do ?”

A.C. “He kept going straight down the street.”

Q “And then did they go in opposite directions?

A.C. "Yeh, they weren’t together, they went this way from each other . The one who did the shooting went this way [points right] and the other went this way down Pear (sp?) Street [points to her left] that way”

Q “What was the man who did not do the shooting, but the man who went in the other direction from the man who did the shooting.. What was he wearing if you remember?”

A.C. “ Well as far as I can remember, he was wearing a light jacket and a white shirt.”

Q “And was he tall or short?”

A.C. "He was tall”

Q “And was he heavy or thin?”

A.C. “He was thin”

Q “But the one who did the sh....the one who had the gun seconds after Tippitt was shot, he was short..”

A.C. "Yeh he was short and kinda heavy”

Q "Now, did you testify before the Warren Commission about this?”

A.C. “No, I never said a word to anyone”

Q “Did anyone come to see you after the murder of Officer Tippitt?”

A.C. “Yeh, There was man came. I didn’t know what he was. He came to my house and talked to me, but he looked like he was a policeman to me”

Q “ He did? Did he have a gun?”

A.C. “Yes. He wore a gun.”

Q “ Mrs Clemens, how long after Tippitt was shot, did this man with the gun come to visit you?”

A.C. “ About two day, about two days. Said that I might get hurt or someone might hurt me if I would talk.”

Q “About what you saw?”

A.C. [nodding] “What I saw. He just told me it might be best if I didn’t say anything, because I might get hurt.”

 

[riptowtan]

Bugliosi, which is where you're getting most of this from is very attached to little factoids of his own, that he repeatedly uses to embroider his tendentious prosecutors case. But like most of what Bulgiosi says, a cursory poke and it all falls apart.

The rifle in the Paines garage.
Ruth Paine (and Michael) was an avowed pacifist who would not allow guns in her home or her garage, as she testified. She didn't know anything about this supposed rifle in the garage. The rifle wrapped in a soft blanket was loaded and unloaded by Ruth and Michael Paine from their car when they transported the Oswald's possessions, yet neither of them noticed any rifle. The rifle was in their garage wrapped in a blanket and neither of them noticed. Michael Paine even said he'd seen the backyard photos pre-assassination, yet he loads and unloads the rifle wrapped in a blanket from the back of the Paine's car and doesn't notice. Michael Paine in particular also lied about the Minox spy camera found by the Dallas police so his trustworthiness is already highly suspect. No evidence the blanket ever contained a rifle was found, and the alleged shirt and blanket fibre evidence is null and void anyway because all the Oswald evidence was stored together by the DP, and even spread out on the floor together and photographed, as shown in Jesse Curry's book (a scan of which i think i have at home so i'll post it later) . Nobody that Thursday saw Oswald with a large piece of packing paper and some tape, where was it? Nobody in that small house saw or heard him make the bag or go to the garage and get his rifle and put it in the bag.

Further more, no ammo, ammo boxes, rifle cleaning equipment or any other paraphernalia was ever found. Instead we are to believe Oswald owned a rifle and 4 bullets. Nobody who knew one rifle from another had ever seen Lee in possession of it, nobody ever saw him shoot it. There's no evidence that Oswald had practiced firing a rifle at all in nearly 5 years.

The reality is there is absolutely no evidence that rifle was ever in that bag.

Lee visited his wife at the Paines the previous evening, conflicting with his usual routine.
The arrangement hadn't been going on long enough for there to be a routine and Oswald had only been working at the TSBD for a few weeks. And what Bugliosis doesn't mention is the fact that Ruth Paine was the one who actually changed her routine, because she was planning to have a child's birthday party at her house on Saturday, as likely an explanation was that Lee wanted to spend a bit of time with his wife and kid without having a house full of screaming kids on Saturday morning.

The 3 amigos on floor five heard shells landed on the floor and the bolt action of the rifle.
Bugliosi loves this one. Sadly its nonsense. Of the 3 men, only Norman ever mentioned the falling of the shells or the sound of the bolt action. Unfortunately, his first and most contemporary statement makes no mention of any of this, these details only getting mysteriously inserted into the story in interviews later on:








http://mysite.verizon.net/respxxbt/dukelane/ss491.htm

Unique serial number on rifle
Nope, thats a LN factoid that doesn't get challenged often enough. The serial numbers were not unique. Of the several million Carcanos knocking about at that time, we already know without searching that there were 2 others with the same serial number. Michael Lattimer had one which he used to try and recreate the shooting in his book kenendy and Lincoln, and Klein's had one in 1962 and one in 1963 (the one Oswald allegedly ordered).


Some more information on the Norman, Williams, Jarman story here, which is yet more evidence to the growing mountain that shows Oswald was not on the 6th floor at the time of the shooting.


http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=13779&st=15

So what exactly are you claiming? Do you think Oswald owned the rifle or not? Do you think everyone who gives details that incriminate Oswald are lying and we should just trust Oswald? You've managed to nitpick what I've said, rather unconvincingly i must say, in order to make the evidence fit an unstated narrative. What do you think happened? If you try to put together all of your factoids you are left with no coherent theory that explains everything. How do you explain the specific details given by Frazier and Linnie Randle?
"Before I got in the car, I glanced in the back seat, and saw a
big sack. It must have been about 2 feet long, and the top of the sack
was sort of folded up, and the rest of the sack had been kind of
folded under. I asked Lee what was in the sack, and he said "curtain
rods", and I remembered that he had told me the day before that he was
going to bring some curtain rods."
KEY PART:
"The top of the sack was sort of folded up, and the rest of the
sack had been kind of folded under."

As for your other points I will go over them quickly.
Marina has testified that Oswald kept his rifle in the blanket. She had seen the rifle in the blanket before, but on the morning of the assassination, the rifle was missing. (Hint:Oswald took it with him) http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/aff-mari.gif

Your hand waving away of Brennan, the 3 construction workers on the 5th floor and the other witnesses who saw a while man with a rifle in the 6th floor window makes it clear that you are in denial. How do you get from what you have said to the conclusion that their testimony is nonsense? It doesn't follow in any form of logic I've ever heard. They all heard the shots from above did they not? The majority of witnesses at the Dealey Plaza have also said the shoots came from the direction of the Depository so we have very good evidence that that is where the shots were fired. Since we know that the gun was Oswald's, that the three bullets were fired from that gun to the exclusion of all other guns in the world, and because of the additional evidence found in the Book Depository, it is clear Oswald did it.

As for when and where Oswald made the paper bag, clearly he did it out of sight. We can speculate all we want on when he made it, but the fact of the matter is that the bag had his palm prints on in the exact location of where his hand would have been according to Frazier's testimony.

Some questions for Soily:
How did Oswald's gun get on the 6th floor?
Why was Oswald's clipboard completely blank that day? (found on 6th floor)
Why did Oswald leave the book depository to get his revolver?

 

[riptowtan]

Robo. This is transcription of her interview except for the very beginning, which I find hard to understand.

"Q “ Did you know Officer Tippitt?”

A.C. "Yeh, I saw him.. many times”

Q "Did you hear the shots?

AC. “Yes, I heard the shots”

Q “What did you do?”

A.C. "I ran out into the street… and looked down the street. I ran down the street where he was lying, and I looked at him."

Q “ Now when you heard the shots, and you went out of the house, did you see a man with a gun?”

A.C. “Yes I did”

Q “What was he doing?”

A.C. “ Oh he was reloading.. I think he was reloading his gun.”

Q “And how would you describe that man?”

A.C.” He was kinda chunky.. He was kinda heavy. He wasn’t a big man”

Q “ Was he tall or short?”

A.C. “He was a kinda short guy”

Q “Short and heavy?”

A.C. “Yeh”

Q ”Was there any other man?”

A.C. "Yeh . One on the other side of the street…all I know, he throw him the gun.”

Q “Mrs Clemens.. the man who had the gun.. Did he make any motion at all to the other man across the street?”

A.C.”No more than throw him the gun”

Q “ And then what happened to the man with the gun?”

A.C. “He unloaded and reloaded.”

Q “And what did the other man do ?”

A.C. “He kept going straight down the street.”

Q “And then did they go in opposite directions?

A.C. "Yeh, they weren’t together, they went this way from each other . The one who did the shooting went this way [points right] and the other went this way down Pear (sp?) Street [points to her left] that way”

Q “What was the man who did not do the shooting, but the man who went in the other direction from the man who did the shooting.. What was he wearing if you remember?”

A.C. “ Well as far as I can remember, he was wearing a light jacket and a white shirt.”

Q “And was he tall or short?”

A.C. "He was tall”

Q “And was he heavy or thin?”

A.C. “He was thin”

Q “But the one who did the sh....the one who had the gun seconds after Tippitt was shot, he was short..”

A.C. "Yeh he was short and kinda heavy”

Q "Now, did you testify before the Warren Commission about this?”

A.C. “No, I never said a word to anyone”

Q “Did anyone come to see you after the murder of Officer Tippitt?”

A.C. “Yeh, There was man came. I didn’t know what he was. He came to my house and talked to me, but he looked like he was a policeman to me”

Q “ He did? Did he have a gun?”

A.C. “Yes. He wore a gun.”

Q “ Mrs Clemens, how long after Tippitt was shot, did this man with the gun come to visit you?”

A.C. “ About two day, about two days. Said that I might get hurt or someone might hurt me if I would talk.”

Q “About what you saw?”

A.C. [nodding] “What I saw. He just told me it might be best if I didn’t say anything, because I might get hurt.”

There were ten witnesses who identified Oswald as the murderer of Tippit, along with the fact that it was Oswald's gun. (The same gun that was found on him at his arrest) Clemons was clearly mistaken.

 

[Soily]

That's not what a neighbour said about the "people" who were involved in Tippitt's murder.. see the Aquila Clemens interview.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XRToGPV4W7M

More about the two men seen at the murder scene later.

Helen Markham's testimony doesn't square with the facts in almost every sense, but because the LNs like to cherry pick both witnesses and what they said as much as any CT, she is used as a solid ID for Oswald. I mean Macadams is so desperate to keep HM as a witness on his side he even tries to defends her ridiculous suggestion that she sat with Tippit and talked with him after he was shot, even though he was shot in the head and killed instantly. The only thing we know from the dotty Markham is that she was on the way for her bus when she saw whatever she saw, and unless she set off to get it after it had already left, places the murder at about 1:05-1:06, earlier than the timeframe needed for Oswald to have gotten there.

 

[jargon buster]

The single bullet theory is clearly not true.

The real killer of Kennedy was Joe diMaggio.
He was sitting on the back of Kennedy's car concealed by a "cloaking device".
you can see clearly from the Zapruder film that the fatal blow was from a baseball bat coming from the "right and to the left, right and to the left, right and to the left"

 

[riptowtan]

Haha unbelievable stuff. Why do you feel the need to lie? Raised his fist in victory indeed. He did that and then vehemenly protested his innocence even when he was dying did he? His MO in the walker shooting was supposedly to write everything down, maps, plans, photos, mea cupla, then confess to it afterwards. Yet this time he absolutely denied any involvement even on his dead bed. Weird. Bugliosi loves his wedding ring factoid, conveniently forgetting Oswald also left his wallet too, a fact that could just as easily square with someone in a rush and forgetting them. Bulgiosi of course doesn't like to talk about the wallet Oswald left on the dresser because when Oswald was arrested the police found his wallet on him.

http://www.revilo-oliver.com/rpo/oswald_fist.jpg
I didn't lie about anything. Here is a picture of him raising his fist. Upon arrest Oswald punched a cop and then drew his gun. Is that what an innocent person would do when a police officer approaches? If he was innocent he would have cooperated with the cops giving his name and shown to them that he was innocent with some evidence. Instead he lies multiple times, even slips up and says he was on the 6th floor at the time of the shooting, and to this day conspiracy theorists are gullible enough to buy it. I suppose it was just a mere coincidence that for the first time Oswald left his wedding ring. Oh and the 170$ he left out, which was practically all the money he had owned, is also just a coincidence. Nice try with bringing up the wallet as a distraction, but it doesn't fool anyone here.

And the fact you rely on Brennan so much show how desperate your are. He's a total clown:



Haha! Love the numerous made up details like the smirk. I'm surprised he didn't stop to do an evil cackle like Skeletor too. And you think this clown is a reliable witness. A man who kept changing his story, a man who describes things that are impossible, such as the height of the killer because he was stood up, which Oswald wasn't. A man who couldn't pick Oswald out of a lineup and later lied about this saying he was scared he was the target of a communist plot. Pathetic.

How is he a clown? And how do you know he is making up the details? Oh yea i forgot. Anything that contradicts your view it thrown in the garbage or is just added to the wildly implausible grand conspiracy.Why is it so hard to believe that Brennan feared he may be targeted? If it is not clear whether a conspiracy went down or not, I would have waited till late as well.

 

[Fourbrick]

Here is my carcano rifle. It is nearly the same as Oswald's. Only the mount, scope and lack of sling are different.

Ranb

Ranb, Does your Carcano have side sling mounts as the rifle found in the Depository or bottom mounts as the rifle in the famous photo taken in his yard?

 

[TraneWreck]

Eyewitness testimony is the lowest, most unreliable type of evidence. No case should be based on the recollections of human beings. It's only useful as a supplement to hard evidence, but the same human frailty that makes us terrible at accurate recall causes us to find such testimony pursuasive, thus it continues to be used in a legal context.

If all eyewitness testimony is ignored on both sides with respect to the Kennedy assassination, a much clearer picture emerges. There's simply no credible evidence for anyone other than Oswald as the shooter.

 

[Fourbrick]

"Mrs. Markham gave the only detailed account of what occurred between the gunman and Tippit from the moment the patrolman stopped on 10th Street. According to the Report: “Her description and that of other eyewitnesses led to the police broadcast at 1:22 p.m. describing [Tippit’s] slayer as ‘about 30, 5’8”, black hair, slender.’” But Mrs. Markham also told attorney Mark Lane that the gunman was “short, a little on the heavy side,” with “somewhat bushy” hair. In testifying before the Commission, she first denied that she had ever said this and changed her story only when confronted with a tape recording of the conversation. The Commission observes that “in her various statements and in her testimony, Mrs. Markham was uncertain and inconsistent in her recollection of the exact time of the slaying.”

Bolded part seems to confirm how Mrs Clemens described Officer Tppit's killer. Or as Soily said a unreliable witness.

 

[Soily]

Eyewitness testimony is the lowest, most unreliable type of evidence. No case should be based on the recollections of human beings. It's only useful as a supplement to hard evidence, but the same human frailty that makes us terrible at accurate recall causes us to find such testimony pursuasive, thus it continues to be used in a legal context.

If all eyewitness testimony is ignored on both sides with respect to the Kennedy assassination, a much clearer picture emerges. There's simply no credible evidence for anyone other than Oswald as the shooter.

In that case the LN side should stop using ridiculous witnesses like Howard Brennan, Bledsoe and Markham as 'proof' then. The tippit witnesses can only be said to support Oswald as the lone killer unless you filter it through the prejudged certainty that Oswald was.

 

[TraneWreck]

In that case the LN side should stop using ridiculous witnesses like Howard Brennan, Bledsoe and Markham as 'proof' then. The tippit witnesses can only be said to support Oswald as the lone killer unless you filter it through the prejudged certainty that Oswald was.

Notice that I suggested ignoring ALL eyewitness testimony.

Remove the eyewitnesses and you remove all basis for multiple gunmen, but the evidence for a single shooter from the book depository remains.

 

[Fourbrick]

Notice that I suggested ignoring ALL eyewitness testimony.

Does that include Police officers as well?

 

[TraneWreck]

Does that include Police officers as well?

Yes. They have training, but they're subject to the same fundamental errors of observation and recollection that plague all humans.