Controlled demolition vs. the towers collapsing

[Anders Lindman]

Anders, you're the one who posted a quote referring to a concrete core.

Ok, I thought you meant the Wikipedia article. I mixed it up.

But couldn't it simply be that the interior box columns are the perimeter columns of the 47 core columns?

In this picture it's obvious that the core columns together take up a large surface area:

 

[Architect]

Anders, that's a diagram, not a scale drawing.

Now, how you getting on with those safety factor issues? Ready to conceed you made your figures up yet?

 

[triforcharity]

That definitely looks like the kind of weakness of the steel that would have been enough. But I don't know. My amateur guess is that Thermite would have been needed to cause enough weakness. And the molten metal seen pouring out of one of the floors of one of the WTC towers looks suspicious to me.

So, basically, you're going to continue with this arguement from personal ignorance?

 

[triforcharity]

Tony's paper "The Sustainability of the Controlled Demolition Hypothesis for the Destruction of the Twin Towers", April 24, 2007, mentions a safety factor of 5. Hope he doesn't mind me citing this.



Kevin Ryan also talks about a live load column capability of 2000% before failure could occur. He might have got this from the original Engineering News Record article on the towers.

Ergo, here are your problems.

#1- Tony has been shown to be wrong time and time again about his safety factor. If he was RIGHT, he would have published this in response to Baxant et al. and if correct, Bazant would have adjusted the numbers, and re-submitted. To date, this has not been done.

Kevin Ryan, (Aka-WaterBoy) cites a good source. But you see, this is talking about the live loads. Do you understand what that means? It has NOTHING to do with the heating of the columns. NOTHING.This also talks about the EXTERIOR columns. Not the interior, where the collapse began.

 

[BigAl]

No thanks. It's obvious there were numerous reports of explosions or the sounds of explosions, as well as injuries from.

"Explosion" is just a good word for "loud noise" unless there really was a man-made explosion, in which case a million people for a kilometer around would all hear the same noise and there would deaths and injuries with unique symptoms.

When considered with all the evidence and eyewitness accounts and the tabulation of the causes of death and types of injuries, the most likely explanation for the lack of barotrauma is the absence of man-made explosives st WTC on 9/11.

WTC was awash in first-responders trained to see the signs of explosives and search dogs trained to smell them. Nobody saw or smelled anything.

There were no eyewitnesses reports of noises consistent in timing, loudness and brisance with man-made demolition.

I can't find a single reference to a barotrauma injury or death at WTC on 9/11,here are descriptions of blast injuries and terrorist bombings.

Explosions have the capability to cause multisystem, life-threatening injuries in single or multiple victims simultaneously. These types of events present complex triage, diagnostic, and management challenges for the health care provider. Explosions can produce classic injury patterns from blunt and penetrating mechanisms to several organ systems, but they can also result in unique injury patterns to specific organs including the lungs and the central nervous system.

http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/822587-overview​

Explosions and Blast injuries - A Primer for Clinicians
http://www.cdc.gov/masstrauma/preparedness/primer.pdf

Blast Injuries
http://www.rph.wa.gov.au/anaesth/downloads/Blast Injuries (Mr S. Rao).pdf


This is a good description of injuries due to blast. Unfortunately, it's PowerPoint. Not everyone can view it.
www.southbaydrc.org/users/blast.ppt

subscription required. Can someone look at it for me? http://www.nejm.org/doi/pdf/10.1056/NEJMra042083

 

[triforcharity]

is that the same as concusive injuries?

Simmilar, but impacts things like eardrums, lungs, and sinus cavities. The organs that contain air.

 

[Anders Lindman]

Come on, Anders, you seem reluctant to answer this one!

Ok, you wrote: "In other words we could increase the loads in these areas by up to 40% before yield point was reached and plastic (permanent) deformation begins. Of course this figure has lots of variables - most of the steel webs did not have such a high yield factor, some areas had DCRs well in excess of 0.83, and so on."

Are you saying that the WTC towers were designed with only a factor of 1.4 of the necessary strength to keep the towers erect?

 

[triforcharity]

But was what is described below really batteries? Looks very suspicious to me. I'm not sure the source for this information can be trusted but it fits eerily well with what I speculated about before I found this.

Floor 81: "Fuji Bank had torn up the 81st floor, he said, and stripped it down to the bare bone to reinforce the trusses so that the floor could hold more weight. ... "The whole floor was batteries," he said, "huge battery-looking things." They were "all black" and "solid, very heavy" things that had been brought in during the night. They had been put in place during the summer prior to 9/11, he said. ... "Nobody worked on that floor," the source said about Floor 81. The whole floor was taken up with a "whole bunch of batteries" and "enclosed server racks" that were so tall that one could not see over the top of them. The enclosed server racks were locked and the only people who could open them were employees of the Shimizu Corp., he said." -- From: http://www.erichufschmid.net/TFC/Bollyn-Fuji-WTC.html

Yes, a bank would most certainly have lots of battery backups. And most server centers don't have people actively working in them. They don't usually let people in there for a reason. Banks need things to be secure.

 

[triforcharity]

So those parts, flew out from the inside of the building, through the fireball, and landed on the roof of another building?

Yes, so did lots and lots of papers. And body parts. Lots of them. So did plane parts. Lots of them.

 

[BigAl]

Yes? But you can't actually point to anything?

Here are examples of gas explosions.

Paint store explosion
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2178600570591048350
News Story
http://blogs.chron.com/woodlands/archives/2006/02/fume_fire_paint.html

Backdraft explosion #1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1_u-eAq5QU
Backdraft explosion #2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkNCqrJiXsU
Fire Dept practice mistake
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3326847714607168493

Gas vapor explosion reported under oath by William Rodriguez

The fire, the ball of fire, for example, I was in the basement when the first plane hit the building. And at that moment, I thought it was an electrical generator that blew up at that moment. A person comes running into the office saying explosion, explosion, explosion. When I look at this guy; has all his skin pulled off of his body. Hanging from the top of his fingertips like it was a glove. And I said, what happened? He said the elevators. What happened was the ball of fire went down with such a force down the elevator shaft on the 58th . freight elevator, the biggest freight elevator that we have in the North Tower, it went out with such a force that it broke the cables. It went down, I think seven flights. The person survived because he was pulled from the B3 level. But this person, being in front of the doors waiting for the elevator, practically got his skin vaporized.

William Rodriquez
Transcript of NIST Public Meeting in New York City . February 12, 2004


http://wtc.nist.gov/media/Public Transcript 021204 Final1_withlinks.pdf

 

[triforcharity]

You don't know how to search text on a web page?

Ctrl-F, type in the letters B O M B. Some accounts do not mention the words 1993 or bomb, but obviously are referring to it. See Marlene Cruz, for example.

Post it here. I read through every word in that post. It says NOTHING of the sort.

 

[T.A.M.]

is that the same as concusive injuries?

Barotrauma is trauma as the result of pressure change. Explosives cause this with the ear drums most obviously. Deep Sea Divers also can suffer from it for obviously different rangers.

Yet despite the alleged explosives used in the two towers, not a single case on record (from the studies I have found) of barotrauma from the event.

Elmondo has a few links on this, to studies done reviewing the injury types suffered by patients presenting from the collapses etc... to the local ERs.

BUt then again, according to the ever changing story of the truthers, the towers were brought down with silent explosives...laughable.

TAM

 

[BigAl]

That's the theory?

No, I don't think there has been any intelligent analysis of this alleged fireball or why it would be so selective in its damage.

Texas sharpshooter fallacy.

 

[T.A.M.]

Simmilar, but impacts things like eardrums, lungs, and sinus cavities. The organs that contain air.

exactly.

TAM

 

[BigAl]

Really? There were no injuries from the explosions in the basements? Please provide evidence for this claim.

Burn injuries, not blast injuries.

 

[ergo]

"Explosion" is just a good word for "loud noise" unless there really was a man-made explosion, in which case a million people for a kilometer around would all hear the same noise and there would deaths and injuries with unique symptoms.

I think this is pretty insulting to what people who were actually there said about what they heard. And no, not every explosion is going to be heard by "a million people" for a "kilometre around", especially not with all the other noise that was going on.

When considered with all the evidence and eyewitness accounts and the tabulation of the causes of death and types of injuries, the most likely explanation for the lack of barotrauma is the absence of man-made explosives st WTC on 9/11.

Is there tabulation of the causes of death and types of injuries? If so, where? And is there a specific reference to the "lack of barotrauma"? Also, what kinds of explosives might not produce barotrauma?

WTC was awash in first-responders trained to see the signs of explosives and search dogs trained to smell them. Nobody saw or smelled anything.

Please cite the evidence for this claim.

There were no eyewitnesses reports of noises consistent in timing, loudness and brisance with man-made demolition.

Well, there were, but you just think they have to sound like TNT explosions.

I can't find a single reference to a barotrauma injury or death at WTC on 9/11, here are descriptions of blast injuries and terrorist bombings.

But you said that there was some tabulation of deaths and types of injuries. Can you link to this or provide the source? Thanks.

 

[Architect]

Ok, you wrote: "In other words we could increase the loads in these areas by up to 40% before yield point was reached and plastic (permanent) deformation begins. Of course this figure has lots of variables - most of the steel webs did not have such a high yield factor, some areas had DCRs well in excess of 0.83, and so on."

Are you saying that the WTC towers were designed with only a factor of 1.4 of the necessary strength to keep the towers erect?

Anders, you need to reread my lengthy post on safety factors a lot more closely.

Look, I'm guessing that this level of detail is all completely new to you. I've taken a look at your extensive posts over on the Icke forum and I know you're taking a lot of the "alternative" stuff at face value.

Can I suggest that before you dig any further, you nip out and buy a copy of "Why Buildings Fall Down". I'm not taking the mickey - it's a fascinating read, and I think you'll learn a lot from it.

 

[BigAl]

you better explain that to al, because he was so sure that there was "no evidence" and "no eyewitness reports" of any kind of explosive blast barotrauma injury event in the basement, or any sound whatsoever of explosions.

ftfy

 

[ergo]

Texas sharpshooter fallacy.

The fireball was not selective? Please provide evidence for this claim.

Also, did you know that some people actually used the elevators to escape?

 

[triforcharity]

Really? There were no injuries from the explosions in the basements? Please provide evidence for this claim.

Burn injuries, consistant with a fireball. No barotraumatic injuries. Try again! And while you are at it, show us those eyewitnesses that describe the bomb like the 1993 bombing.

GO!!