Is God necessary for (objective) morality?

Morality being mind independent just means that actions are truly right or truly wrong independent of what any mind believes, but it doesn't mean that morality can happen without minds.

Without trying to step on Hoku's toes here- How?


Why? That is the definition of objective in a philosophical sense.
Because there is no "right" or "wrong" that is a "fact about the universe". "Right" and "wrong" are human judgments regarding how human initiated events affect other humans.
 
That "balancing" is the result of it being subjective. If there were one objective "good", the balancing wouldn't be necessary- and neither would morals.

I don't see why. To me, it's just the result of having to consider a lot of variables.


Not with the brains and senses we have, no. And once we start speculating about creatures that can we're no longer discussing human beings, so who knows if and how morality will apply to them.

For morality to be objective it would need to apply to any creature in the universe with a mind capable of understanding morality.


No. We cannot know what all the results will be of our actions, and what chains of events those results will in turn set in motion. We also cannot know how our actions will be perceived by others. Without that knowlege, the best we can do is make educated guesses.

There is that "know" thing again.We can't use our knowledge of physics to predict exactly what the universe will look like in 20 years, but we believe it is theoretically possible, no?

Then the theoretical existence of "objective morality" would be completely meaningless. Like "god", in may respects. "God" in our time has been largely redefined so that it is an impotent and worthless notion cowering in whatever gap of ignorance can be found in which it can be stuffed. So has "objective morality".

I don't think that not knowing makes it meaningless. We don't know how consciousness works, but what can try to understand it, and have good reason to think we can.

Isn't it a good idea to find out if angels exist before trying to find out how many can dance on a pinhead?

Most certainly.
 
Morality concerns itself with oughts, which by definition are always a matter of belief, and therefore are driven by our non-reasoning parts -- basic urges, emotions, etc.

it seems to me that we do reason about morality. Other animals act on instinct, but considering right and wrong action is one thing that separates us from other animals.

In an abstract mathematical sense, perhaps. In Universe you and I inhabit, definitely not. If you disagree, try constructing a real Klein bottle.

But if the idea does illustrate that it is possible to get at truly objective morality, that is all we need to know in order to start trying to discover it. We may never get it perfect, but that doesn't stop us in science. We don't have and may never have a TOE, but that shouldn't and doesn't stop us from trying.
 
Give me your direct answer to this question: Why is it wrong to rape someone?

If objective morality exists and you accept as its basis Kagan's definition of morality that I outlined, then it would go something like this:

Rape is wrong, by definition, because it harms the victim.
 
If objective morality exists and you accept as its basis Kagan's definition of morality that I outlined, then it would go something like this:

Rape is wrong, by definition, because it harms the victim.

Is it always wrong to harm someone?
 
I think Plumjam gets lost or confused by his own analogies. To answer his question; yes great music does exist but only subjectivly in that there are people who would give a particular song the attribute of "great" and others who would not.

What is "great" depends on a value judgement of an individual or group. What critera is that defines that value differs from individual to individual. That is what makes it a subjective quality. You can show a person that middle "A" is defined as a vibrational frequency of 440khz, That is a measurable quality. "great" is not a similarly measurable quality since it relies on opinion or a human value judgement.

Color is an objective attribute because it is independent of human value judgement. Color is associated with a particular measurable, frequence or wavelength of photons. Adding the attribute of "beautiful" to a color necessitates a human value judgement. The attibute "beautifull" is a human value judgement that is determined on criteria that is not inherently measurable, or independant of a human opinion.

Objectively you can measure music by the order and timing of sound waves and thier frequencies. These are objective attributes of music. The criteria for what is "great" music is not measurable or determined without a human value judgement. Therefore music can exist objectively but "great" music can only exist subjectively


Funny you should choose this as an example.

The particular frequency which is currently agreed upon to be A above middle C happens to be 440 Hz. For now. Mostly. :)

That's the technical, ISO standard convention for "concert pitch" finalized in 1975. Arguments in favor of it started in the '30s. Many European and some American orchestras use 442 Hz in spite of that. Or occasionally 443 Hz. :p

For the past few centuries the value has fluctuated with some regularity both chronologically and geographically, and with no small amount of dispute from various interested parties. Pitch-pipes and tuning forks from various times and places have been found to range from 380Hz to 451Hz.( :confused:) Check out this wiki section on "pitch inflation" if you'd like to get a short primer.

Even today "Baroque pitch" is tuned to 415Hz.

Sometimes.

:boggled:

Things can be much more relative than we casually assume ... or arbitrary, or subjective. Or something. :blush:
 
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Mind independent is a misleading term. Minds are required for morality to happen in practice, but that doesn't mean that objective morality can't exist independent of minds. For example, arithmetic is objective, so it is by definition mind independent. However, no arithmetic would be done unless there were minds to do it. So, what mind independent really means is true independent of minds. Morality being mind independent just means that actions are truly right or truly wrong independent of what any mind believes, but it doesn't mean that morality can happen without minds.


So.

Was mathematics discovered or invented?

Sorry. Couldn't help myself. There are some interesting parallels in that discussion, though.
 
<snip>

For morality to be objective it would need to apply to any creature in the universe with a mind capable of understanding morality.

<snip>


For morality to be objective it would have to exist equally as much in the absence of any creature with a mind in the universe. Otherwise you're just making a 'tree in the woods' argument.

That's why it isn't.
 
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Funny you should choose this as an example.

The particular frequency which is currently agreed upon to be A above middle C happens to be 440 Hz. For now. Mostly. :)

That's the technical, ISO standard convention for "concert pitch" finalized in 1975. Arguments in favor of it started in the '30s. Many European and some American orchestras use 442 Hz in spite of that. Or occasionally 443 Hz. :p

For the past few centuries the value has fluctuated with some regularity both chronologically and geographically, and with no small amount of dispute from various interested parties. Pitch-pipes and tuning forks from various times and places have been found to range from 380Hz to 451Hz.( :confused:) Check out this wiki section on "pitch inflation" if you'd like to get a short primer.

Even today "Baroque pitch" is tuned to 415Hz.

Sometimes.

:boggled:

Things can be much more relative than we casually assume ... or arbitrary, or subjective. Or something. :blush:

Ok, 400-ish Hz
The point being that music is sound which is a specific frequency of air pressure waves.
Something objectivly measurable.
 
Without trying to step on Hoku's toes here- How?

First we would have to accept some definitions. For instance, in order for up and down to mean anything we first have to accept that up means from the earth to the sky and down means from the sky to the earth. With morality, we have to accept that right is helping and wrong is hurting (super simplified I know). Now we can say that rape is wrong because it harms the victim even if a mind thinks it is right. You might say that up and down correspond to physical reality, but if you think about it, so does harm, albeit in a much more complex way. Still, it does correlate with physical reality.



Because there is no "right" or "wrong" that is a "fact about the universe". "Right" and "wrong" are human judgments regarding how human initiated events affect other humans.

Yes, if right and wrong are just human judgements, they are subjective.
 
This last post sums up why morality cannot be objective; it requires a "victim". As I was trying to explain earlier, what you see as an evolution of morality is simply an expansion of what/who is a victim. If you do not believe an infant is a person, killing them isn't immoral. If you do not believe women can be moral agents, as can be seen in the Old Testament and the Qur'an, abusing or raping them isn't immoral. As we expand the concept of moral agency to other species, morality "evolves".

It has nothing to do with objectivity, but empathy.
 
Yes, there is- because "the harm or suffering of others" is still entirely dependant on an observer- the one experiencing the harm and/or suffering. "Suffering" is entirely in the eye of the beholder, and the exact same thing that causes one person to suffer may benefit or even please another.

Detonating a stick of dynamite may cause differing amount of damage depending on where it is located. In some situations, such as in the mining industry, detonating a stick of dynamite may even be beneficial.

This does not make the damage from detonating a stick of dynamite subjective. It only makes it situation dependent.

Likewise with morality. Some people may greatly enjoy being bound in leather and lightly whipped, others may find it a traumatic experience. Whether or not the subject of this experience finds it pleasurable or traumatic can, in theory, be determined objectively through a brain scan while being subjected to this treatment. So the outcome, pleasure or suffering, is an objective result of this action, regardless of whether or not you actually know which outcome is being achieved.

So if we define morality as choosing to act in a manner intended to minimize the harm to or suffering of others, then binding people in leather and lightly whipping them without their consent is not moral because, while some people may find it pleasurable, others will find it traumatic, and you are, by any objective standard, acting in a manner likely to cause suffering to others.

Whether or not an action is likely to cause harm or suffering in any given situation can be objectively determined by empirical experimentation. For example, you could punch a thousand random people in the face and record the result to empirically determine whether or not punching someone in the face causes harm or suffering. The outcome of such an experiment would yield objective results, and even if a small number of people actually enjoy being punched in the face, this would not change the fact that it has been proven that punching someone in the face is an action likely to cause harm and suffering, and therefore someone attempting to act in a manner intended to minimize harm and suffering would not generally go around punching random people in the face.

And you do that by measuring conduct against the standard you have decided is what is "moral". This standard exists in your mind (and the minds of those that happen to agree)- it does not exist independently of thought or an observer.

Some people might set the standard for measuring the height of a mountain as the distance from it's highest point to the center of the earth and conclude that Chimborazo is the tallest mountain, while others might set the standard for measuring the height of a mountain as the distance from it's highest point to sea level and conclude that Everest is the tallest mountain.

These standards exists only in people minds, and do not exist independently of thought or an observer.

But using the standard of distance from the center of the earth, Chimborazo is objectively the tallest mountain. Using the standard of from seal level, Everest is objectively the tallest mountain.

Morality may simply be an abstract concept, but that does not mean that action cannot be objectively moral or immoral. Deciding on which standard to use to measure morality is like deciding on which standard to use to measure the height of a mountain. Different standards may yield different results, but the results yielded by those standards can still be objective.

Except distance exists independently of an observer. One's behaviour, and the values and priorities used to measure them, do not.


Tell me, what is the distance of a tree?

In order to determine an objective measure of distance, you need to define a point of reference from which distance is measured from.

In order to determine an objective measure of morality, you need to define a point of reference from which morality is measured by.

I'm attempting to use acting in a manner intended to minimize harm or suffering as a reference point with which to measure morality.

Going around beating-up random people is contrary to acting in a manner intended to minimize harm or suffering, and is therefore immoral when measured from this reference point. It doesn't matter who the observer is, or if there is no observer at all. The fact that this action is contrary to the behavior of a person acting with the intent to minimize harm or suffering is true regardless, making this objectively immoral behavior.

If these are morally true for everybody equally, independant who does them, if everybody agrees these are unquestionably what is always "right" and/or "wrong"- why do they still happen?

Because not everybody chooses to always act in a moral manner. Where's the confusion?

As for disagreements as to what does or does not constitute moral action, not everybody uses the same standards for their basis of morality.

And as for the Aztecs, if their beliefs about human sacrifice being required for the rain needed to grow crops and avoid vast amounts of death and suffering by starvation had been correct, then it could be argued that their practice of human sacrifice might have been, on balance, the right thing to do. Their actions could be regarded as objectively moral for a universe where rain is dependent on child sacrifice.

But thinking over that example, the "intended" part of my definition for morality may be a flaw. Perhaps We should define moral behavior as simply: Acting in a manner likely to minimize harm and suffering of others. In this way, people may believe themselves to be acting morally, when in fact they are not. I may disagree with a lot of what you have to say, but arguing with someone holding strong contrary opinions is a great way to refine your own understanding and position.
 
Ok, 400-ish Hz
The point being that music is sound which is a specific frequency of air pressure waves.
Something objectivly measurable.


Well, no. Not quite. I think you're still missing the point.

Sound is our perception of the motion of "air pressure waves". Any particular note may or may not be defined as a specific frequency of those waves ... if we choose to agree on that definition. The waves themselves will exist, and the frequencies at which they travel will exist whether or not we elect to label them in some fashion. A above middle C is only even "400-ish Hz" (I like that, btw. :)) because some group of humans agreed to label that approximate frequency in that fashion. It could have just as easily been 80Hz, or been called "farzle".

"Music" is even more problematic a concept, as most discussions on the topic between teenagers and their parents will clearly demonstrate. :D

The point is that while the frequency of a waveform can be described empirically or objectively, and that quality will exist even in the absence of such a description, none of the other qualities you mention can, or will. They are utterly dependent on the conventions and definitions agreed upon by those engaged in the discussion.

In large part you and I are agreeing, and saying much the same thing. I felt that your comment about A-440 merited being singled out because quite inadvertently you demonstrated that many of the things which we take for granted as being "objective" really aren't. They are merely conventions which are so thoroughly ingrained in the fabric of our current experience that we mistakenly assume they are.

I'm seeing a lot of the same sort of mistaken assumptions about "objective morality".
 
it seems to me that we do reason about morality. Other animals act on instinct, but considering right and wrong action is one thing that separates us from other animals.
We may reason about it, but mostly we come up with post hoc rationalizations about why we make the (emotionally, empathetically, and bias driven) moral choices we do. Heck, it is trivial to demonstrate that some of our snap moral judgments are at odds with what we fondly imagine a rationally worked out moral judgment would be -- the iterations of the Trolley Problem and the infamous Stanford Prison Experiment provide plenty of grist for that mill, not to mention What Makes People Vote Republican.

Joshua Greene is doing some interesting work in this field, including fMRI studies.

But if the idea does illustrate that it is possible to get at truly objective morality, that is all we need to know in order to start trying to discover it.
The tricky thing about reason is that it is only as good as one's premises. The even trickier thing about human reasoning is that we are chock full of biases that we are mostly not aware of.

For starters, how wold you tell if morality was objective or not? The only moral agents we are aware of all have a behavior that makes constructing tests tricky -- the can deceive and/or confabulate, intentionally and unintentionally.

We may never get it perfect, but that doesn't stop us in science. We don't have and may never have a TOE, but that shouldn't and doesn't stop us from trying.
The Universe does not deceive us -- if we see an unexpected replicatable observation or result, we can be confident that we are wrong, not that the Universe is messing with us for unknown reasons.
 
This last post sums up why morality cannot be objective; it requires a "victim". As I was trying to explain earlier, what you see as an evolution of morality is simply an expansion of what/who is a victim. If you do not believe an infant is a person, killing them isn't immoral. If you do not believe women can be moral agents, as can be seen in the Old Testament and the Qur'an, abusing or raping them isn't immoral. As we expand the concept of moral agency to other species, morality "evolves".

It has nothing to do with objectivity, but empathy.

But it is our understanding of who/what is a moral agent is what has evolved, and this understanding is that who/what has moral agency is based on a physical reality. Individuals that use the bible, the koran or their own gut feeling in deciding who/what is a moral agent do so irrationally because what they are using has no justifiable basis in physical reality. So if the concept of moral agency is based on physical reality, why can't it be objective?
 
The males of several species of duck are avid rapists. Are they morally wrong?

Would 2+2=4 be true in a universe with no one to calculate it?
2 + 2 = 4 is either undefined (if your mathematical system is not powerful enough to define natural numbers), or true by definition. If someone can point me at a mathematical system that is consistent, can define natural numbers (1,2, 3, etc.)and in which 2 + 2 != 4, I will be quite shocked.
 

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