Merged Two Mosques to be built near Ground Zero

In other words, you have no clue, and absolutely no desire whatsoever to educate yourself.

Having read this is enough for my education of what a vile religion islam really is.

" Your lord inspired the angels with the message: "
I will terrorize the unbelievers [infidels]. Therefore smite them on their necks and every joint and incapacitate them. Strike off their heads and cut off each of their fingers and toes. Fight and kill the disbelievers wherver you find them, take them captive,torture them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war."
The call for jihad by allah to all muslims according to the prophet.
 
Yes, but not too open that the brains fall out as it seems they have in a few here.

I did not ask you to parrot a witty remark. I asked if you know what an open mind is.

Is this just going to be another in a long list of questions you refuse to adress?
 
Having read this is enough for my education of what a vile religion islam really is.

" Your lord inspired the angels with the message: "
I will terrorize the unbelievers [infidels]. Therefore smite them on their necks and every joint and incapacitate them. Strike off their heads and cut off each of their fingers and toes. Fight and kill the disbelievers wherver you find them, take them captive,torture them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war."
The call for jihad by allah to all muslims according to the prophet.

That's not even a verse, it's two verses - the above is 8:12 and parts of the aforementioned 9:5 mashed together. You just admitted you know nothing about those verses, and don't even care to learn. You know nothing about who spoke those particular verses, when they spoke them, why they spoke them, who they were speaking to, or what else they said at the same time.

Given your complete and utter ignorance about...well, pretty much everything regarding these verses, why should anyone trust what you say about them, especially regarding their interpretation? Or, rather, what some crackpot website has told you about them, since I seriously doubt you've ever seen an actual Qu'ran, much less read it for yourself.
 
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Having read this is enough for my education of what a vile religion islam really is.

" Your lord inspired the angels with the message: "
I will terrorize the unbelievers [infidels]. Therefore smite them on their necks and every joint and incapacitate them. Strike off their heads and cut off each of their fingers and toes. Fight and kill the disbelievers wherver you find them, take them captive,torture them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war."
The call for jihad by allah to all muslims according to the prophet.


It's amazing how people believe a few sentences taken out of context sum up an entire religion, its holy text, its billions of followers, and its thousands of years of history, where numerous changes in culture and tradition have occurred.

But of course, no other religion has ever had a history of attacking people who were different than them. Totally unique to Islam, yup.
 
Having read this is enough for my education of what a vile religion islam really is.

" Your lord inspired the angels with the message: "
I will terrorize the unbelievers [infidels]. Therefore smite them on their necks and every joint and incapacitate them. Strike off their heads and cut off each of their fingers and toes. Fight and kill the disbelievers wherver you find them, take them captive,torture them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war."
The call for jihad by allah to all muslims according to the prophet.

so you are essentially saying, all the peaceful Muslims all over the world are not practicing their religion correctly? the fast majority is not on a killing streak to kill off the infidels. It are fringe groups that, according to the fast majority of Muslims, is abusing the Koran to justify their violence. and not the other way around, the fast majority does it wrong, only Osama and co are real Muslims, unless you agree with Osama , that the others are not real Muslims.
 
There are over six thousand verses in the Qu'ran, amb. There are 114 Suras.

You quote a passage that is one verse mixed with part (just part) of another verse that comes from an entirely different Sura, knowing absolutely nothing about who spoke them, when they spoke them, why they spoke them, who they were speaking to, or what happened immediately before, during, and after they were spoken.

And from that, you say, you've learned everything you need to know about (as nchammer326 put it) an entire religion, its holy text, its billions of followers, and its thousands of years of history, where numerous changes in culture and tradition have occurred.

I'm struggling for some kind of response to that which doesn't involve me slamming my head repeatedly against my desk in sheer astonished frustration.
 
And from that, you say, you've learned everything you need to know about (as nchammer326 put it) an entire religion, its holy text, its billions of followers, and its thousands of years of history, where numerous changes in culture and tradition have occurred.

What arguments like amb's and others are really saying:

islam5.jpg


That more folks are not openly willing to admit such a statement is a good thing. That many of those same folks are still arguing based on that statement is a bad thing.
 
everything i ever needed to know about the US army
i learned on Mai 2004.....
 
There are over six thousand verses in the Qu'ran, amb. There are 114 Suras.

You quote a passage that is one verse mixed with part (just part) of another verse that comes from an entirely different Sura, knowing absolutely nothing about who spoke them, when they spoke them, why they spoke them, who they were speaking to, or what happened immediately before, during, and after they were spoken.

And from that, you say, you've learned everything you need to know about (as nchammer326 put it) an entire religion, its holy text, its billions of followers, and its thousands of years of history, where numerous changes in culture and tradition have occurred.

I'm struggling for some kind of response to that which doesn't involve me slamming my head repeatedly against my desk in sheer astonished frustration.

It's not billions of followers. It's around 1.2 billion. Islam came about not thousands of years ago, but around the seventh century. Invented by a person probably suffering delusions who just happened to be a caravan hijacker in the desert. He died in 632ce in Medina after a life of either grand forgery/con or delusional mental illness. It matters little in what context those verses were uttered. Today radical islam uses just such verses to wreck havoc in the free world not to mention their own world.
 
It's not billions of followers. It's around 1.2 billion. Islam came about not thousands of years ago, but around the seventh century. Invented by a person probably suffering delusions who just happened to be a caravan hijacker in the desert. He died in 632ce in Medina after a life of either grand forgery/con or delusional mental illness. It matters little in what context those verses were uttered. Today radical islam uses just such verses to wreck havoc in the free world not to mention their own world.

1.2 billion means more than a billion, ie. the plural billions

1400 years means more than a thousand, ie. the plural thousands

Picking the most pedantic point and stating exact dates doesn't make you come across as knowledgeable on a subject.
 
It's not billions of followers. It's around 1.2 billion. Islam came about not thousands of years ago, but around the seventh century. Invented by a person probably suffering delusions who just happened to be a caravan hijacker in the desert. He died in 632ce in Medina after a life of either grand forgery/con or delusional mental illness. It matters little in what context those verses were uttered. Today radical islam uses just such verses to wreck havoc in the free world not to mention their own world.

and that has to do what exactly with the fast majority of muslims? the fast majority of muslims are the potential victims of those extremists, just like we are, that is why those extremists must be fought. But blaming the fast majority for the abuse of old verses by a fringe group is surely not the way to go.

Do you blame your catholic neighbors for the Child abuse by some priests?
 
The context of those verses are thus: where believers were driven from their lands, the qu'ran sanctions violence against unbelievers. This is jihad as sanctioned by the pedophile.

Muslim scholars are divided as to the precise nature of jihad, its limits and against whom it may be waged. This is where various interpretations can occur. This is used by radicals to blow themselves and whoever is unlucky enough to be in range up.
 
and that has to do what exactly with the fast majority of muslims? the fast majority of muslims are the potential victims of those extremists, just like we are, that is why those extremists must be fought. But blaming the fast majority for the abuse of old verses by a fringe group is surely not the way to go.

Do you blame your catholic neighbors for the Child abuse by some priests?

If they turned a blind eye to it, yes!
 
The context of those verses are thus: where believers were driven from their lands, the qu'ran sanctions violence against unbelievers. This is jihad as sanctioned by the pedophile.

That leaves out some pretty important details, like what specific unbelievers are being referred to, why they were being driven out, from where they were being driven, and when.

Those two verses you mashed together were not brought down from on high as general instructions, like Moses bringing the Commandments down from Mount Sinai. They were spoken to address specific situations at a specific time. And they weren't even spoken by the same person.

Muslim scholars are divided as to the precise nature of jihad, its limits and against whom it may be waged. This is where various interpretations can occur. This is used by radicals to blow themselves and whoever is unlucky enough to be in range up.

Hey, very good. You got something right for once.

Now all you need to do is figure out how the above means your blanket claims about "Islam" are so oversimplified as to be effectively meaningless as a statement regarding Muslims.
 
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Let me try to explain it to you this way, amb.

See, the first verse you quoted in that mashup of yours, “When thy Lord inspired the angels, (saying): I am with you. So make those who believe stand firm. I will throw fear into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Then smite the necks and smite of them each finger. ” is Sura VIII, Verse 12. It's not a command to Muslims. It was describing what Allah told his angels to do, to help Muslims in a particular battle.

And what battle was that? The Battle of Badr, fought in 624 AD. And to know what that battle was all about, why it was fought, and who fought it, a little history lesson is in order.

Muhammad ibn Abdullah was born in Mecca around 570 AD. At the time, Mecca was ruled by the Quraysh, one of the many polytheistic, pagan pre-Islamic tribes that inhabited the Arabian Peninsula. The Quraysh tribe itself was broken up into many clans. Muhammad's clan, the Banu Hashim, was considered a noble clan because of their hereditary duty to manage the pilgrims who would come to visit the holy site of the Kaabah, the sacred site where many idols of the pagan Arabians were kept.

Muhammad's father died before he was born, and his mother died not long after. Muhammad was taken in and raised by his uncle, Abu Talib, a powerful figure in the noble Banu Hashim clan. In about 613 AD, Muhammad started preaching about the visions from Allah he said he'd started to receive starting three years before. He gained a few followers, the first Muslims, but both they and he were roundly mocked and abused by the pagan polytheists of Mecca. The abuse worsened as Muhammad's following grew, until even the other Quraysh clans started to see him as a threat, especially once he started preaching against the old idol worship.

As the years passed, the abuse got even more severe, with several of his followers killed. The political influence of Muhammad's powerful uncle protected Muhammad himself, but things got so bad for his followers that Muhammad sent several of them away, to live in what is now Ethiopia, under the protection of the Christian emperor there. In 619, though, Muhammad's uncle died, leaving him without any protection against the other Quraysh clans. By 622, things had gotten so bad that many of the early Muslims had been killed, and Muhammad decided to flee with them when word spread that he was going to be assassinated. This was the Hijra, the date from which years in the Muslim calendar (After Hijra, or AH), are counted.

Muhammad and his band of early Muslims made their way to Yathrib, a nearby city now known as Medina. At the time they arrived, Yathrib was stricken by intertribal fighting, and troubles with the sizable Jewish minority. Muhammad brokered peace among the groups contending with each other, under the Constitution of Medina. Under the Constitution, each clan of Medina would be bound to the others under a single government, and established Jews as a protected community.

The latter is especially notable, in light of your “Islam says kill the unbelievers” clam. Muhammad's Constitution says, explicitly, “Those Jews who follow [the leadership of] the Believers will be helped and will be treated with equality. (Social, legal and economic equality is promised to all loyal citizens of the State)”, “No Jew will be wronged for being a Jew,” , “The enemies of the Jews who follow us will not be helped,” and “The Jews of [all the clans] will be treated as one community with the Believers. The Jews have their religion. This will also apply to their freedmen. The exception will be those who act unjustly and sinfully. By so doing they wrong themselves and their families.”

It also, and this important for the battle of Badr, pretty much established the Quraysh of Mecca as the sworn enemies of Medina and all its united clans and peoples under Muhammad.

For the next couple of years, Mecca and Medina were in a sort of cold war. Occasionally raiding expeditions would be sent by one side or the other, but there was never any true fighting despite there being plenty of animosity. All this simmered until 624 (AH 2), when a certain Meccan trade caravan was returning from Syria.

The commander of the caravan, Abu Sufyan, was convinced that the Medinans would raid him, and before he reached Mecca he demanded an army for protection. The Quraysh saw this as a good opportunity to finally crush the Muslims of Medina once and for all, and assembled a large (for the time and place) force, and set out towards Medina. When Muhammad heard about this, he assembled his own force, but it was far smaller, numbering only about 300, and set out to meet the approaching army.

At Badr (a location of water wells used by various trade caravans passing through the desert), the scouts of the Muslim Medina army encountered some Meccan troops. At first, the Muslims thought they'd encountered scouts from the caravan at the heart of this mess. The caravan, though, was safely behind the Meccan army. Despite having been told of this and that the entire "protect the caravan" justification for sending out the army was now moot, only a few Quraysh (including members of Muhammad's own clan, the Banu Hashim) returned to Mecca. The rest, about 1000 strong, continued on, determined to crush the Muslims of Medina.

And unfortunately for Muhammad's army of 300, it was the scouts of this force of 1000 that they encountered at Badr, not the lightly-defended caravan. Despite being outnumbered by more than three to one, however, the Muslim army of Medina handed the Quraysh army of Mecca a resounding defeat. Practically overnight, Muhammad went from an exiled religious kook with a ragtag army to the powerful leader of a major force in the area, having proven it could not just take on but defeat the armies of such major powers as Mecca.

In the aftermath of the battle, the astonished Muslims couldn't quite believe that their tiny force had defeated the Meccan army, and so decisively too. Muhammad's resulting speech to them in that aftermath, explaining how Allah had been responsible for their victory, is what became the 8th Sura of the Qu'ran. That twelfth verse you quoted, the one that you think demands of Muslims that they cut the heads and fingers off of all unbelievers, was actually from Muhammad's description of how Allah sent angels to bolster the Muslim army fighting against the Meccan army. It's those angels who were hacking off fingers and heads, not Muslims, and Muhammad was describing what had been done, not what to do.

Emphasizing this is the fact that a number of Quraysh prisoners were taken in the aftermath of the battle. The leaders of the army were executed, but the Muslim war council could not agree about how to treat the regular soldiers that had been taken captive. Some argued that they should all be executed, while others said they should be released and sent back to Mecca unharmed. Muhammad himself made the final decision regarding the fate of the prisoners of war from the battle of Badr.

The prisoners were released and sent home.
 
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amb,

Look - you can, if you like, say that the horrible violent parts of the Bible are not relevant because modern Christians aren't horrible violent people. Or words to that effect. But if you're going to do that, you can't use the Koran (especially your remix of it) to prove that Muslims are violent.

You have to pick: is scripture a good indication of whether religious adherents are violent, as you said in post #1222? If so, Christians are just as bad. Or, is it better to judge religious adherents by how they actually behave, as you imply in post #1221? If so, you don't strengthen your point by quoting the Koran. Also in that case, you'd have to concede that the vast majority of both Christians and Muslims are non-violent, and all you have left is to compare a tiny minority of violent Christian extremists with a tiny minority of violent Muslim extremists. And though the tiny Muslim minority might be larger than the tiny Christian minority, there are a lot of explanations for that that don't relate to the intrinsic nature of the religions themselves.
 

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