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OOS Collapse Propagation Model

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The big question about the initial collapse is surely "demolition assistance or not?" and nobody with half a brain in 2010 would be supporting demolition.

Actually, that's the question for collapse progression, not initiation. I don't think many would care to dispute that the impact zone might fail, causing the upper block of floors to crunch down. What's in dispute for honest and intelligent people is that this partial failure in the upper storeys of a structural steel highrise would cause instantaneous, smooth, and rapid disintegration in exactly the same manner, in both towers. Nobody with half a brain today or in 2001 would consider this to be a normal response to partial, localized, upper floor damage.
 
Actually, that's the question for collapse progression, not initiation. I don't think many would care to dispute that the impact zone might fail, causing the upper block of floors to crunch down. What's in dispute for honest and intelligent people is that this partial failure in the upper storeys of a structural steel highrise would cause instantaneous, smooth, and rapid disintegration in exactly the same manner, in both towers. Nobody with half a brain today or in 2001 would consider this to be a normal response to partial, localized, upper floor damage.

No. The whole point of this thread is that Major Tom has a theory that the collapse would progress naturally once started but that there may be some nefarious dealings at work regarding initiation.
 
... Nobody with half a brain today or in 2001 would consider this to be a normal response to partial, localized, upper floor damage.
Sure - until they spent a few minutes looking at the tube in tube design and identifying its critical weakness to "OOS" floor stripping. It took me a couple of weeks on and off discussion with a friend who is an absolute conspiracy nut before I worked it out. That was about August 2007.

Once you realise how it actually progressed - the two easy bits being:

1) to recognise that the outer tube columns were stripped off and played very little part in resisting collapse; AND
2) The floors were set for "pancaking" with a 20 to 50 times static overload hitting them with dynamic impact on top of static.

The hard bit is understanding the core. The key to that is to recognise that, once the initial collapse started, there was no significant axial "top bit of columns" on "bottom bit of columns". (Cannot be - the top bit is dropping - amazing how many miss that simple point. :) ) So the contacts will be mainly beam on beam with an order of magnitude less strength than the original axially loaded columns.

From there it is plain sailing to understand why "global collapse was inevitable" to (roughly) quote one authority.
 
The hard bit is understanding the core. The key to that is to recognise that, once the initial collapse started, there was no significant axial "top bit of columns" on "bottom bit of columns". (Cannot be - the top bit is dropping - amazing how many miss that simple point. :) ) So the contacts will be mainly beam on beam with an order of magnitude less strength than the original axially loaded columns.

Good luck with that. I think a theory that has as its premise that the disintegration of the Twin Towers resembles natural gravitational collapse is already seriously flawed, and I'm disappointed that one of the few posters here who agrees that crush-down is not possible in theory or in reality would be indulging in this kind of speculation.

At least we can all agree now that "truthers" are correct in their criticisms about NIST. That the theory proposed is complete hogwash. Right?
 
Good luck with that. I think a theory that has as its premise that the disintegration of the Twin Towers resembles natural gravitational collapse is already seriously flawed, and I'm disappointed that one of the few posters here who agrees that crush-down is not possible in theory or in reality would be indulging in this kind of speculation.

At least we can all agree now that "truthers" are correct in their criticisms about NIST. That the theory proposed is complete hogwash. Right?

I won't grace that bit of "verballing" with a response.

(In case "veballing" is not known to any members it refers to "The putting of damaging remarks into the mouths of suspects during police interrogation" (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/verballing) hence ergo attributing to me, by implication, statements I did not make.)
 
So the contacts will be mainly beam on beam with an order of magnitude less strength than the original axially loaded columns.

And the beams in the core of the upper block would have much less strength than the beams in the core of the lower block.
 
Good luck with that. I think a theory that has as its premise that the disintegration of the Twin Towers resembles natural gravitational collapse is already seriously flawed, and I'm disappointed that one of the few posters here who agrees that crush-down is not possible in theory or in reality would be indulging in this kind of speculation.

At least we can all agree now that "truthers" are correct in their criticisms about NIST. That the theory proposed is complete hogwash. Right?
Impacts, fires started by 66,000 pounds of jet fuel, the largest office fires in history, and gravity collapse. Too complex for 911 truth to grasp, they can't even figure out kill pilots fly planes into buildings, largest buildings around.

I have never seen a group as dumb as 911 truth. They can't take action, they can't get past nonsense and delusional claims.

Don't need NIST to figure out impacts and fires destroyed the WTC towers, and millions of dollars of impact damage from WTC towers collapse caused the start of massive fires in WTC7.

The model from the OP is being used so Major Tom can say small amounts of explosives, or thermite can be used to cause a gravity collapse. So Major Tom is saying gravity collapse is possible with minimum effort. The heat energy of jet fuel injected at 500 mph into the WTC had the energy in each tower of 315 TONS of TNT, the office fires burned hot and had similar energy release. MUCH more energy in jet fuel and office fires than any explosives used to bring down any building! Major Tom is making your can't be a gravity collapse, a failed claim. But Major Tom agrees with your moronic CD delusions.

The number one expert on the WTC towers says Major Tom's CD delusion is nonsense. 9 years of failure begins tomorrow. It is like you and Major Tom are in a cult spewing the party line based on nothing. Got evidence?
 
Ozeco, we have been looking at WTC1 collapse initiation features for the last 15 pages or so. A bit off topic but it is the next place to look once the OOS model is generally accepted.

A summary of what we have learned so far regarding the initial failure sequence:

Just as Bazant divides the WTC1 collapse into 5 stages in BZ, I do the same but reword the stages slightly:

stage 1) Airplane damage, fuel and fires

stage 2) Visible deformations leading into initial buckling sequence, especially inward bowing (IB) of the south face.

stage 3) Initial buckling sequence (initial lateral propagation of column failure and trajectory over the first 12 ft.

stage 4) Initial collision and resulting trajectory and behavior through subsequent collisions until the conditions necessary for runaway destruction in local OOS regions.

stage 5) Runaway collapse propagation (ROOSD)


We know that stages 2 and 3 are the most important places to look for evidence of CD and they may be the only times where a CD is distinguishable from a natural collapse.

We also know that the NIST did not do any analysis of stage 3, the initial buckling sequence. Their only descriptions of the WTC1 collapse initiation sequence are incorrect:


1-6D, p 312:

Table 5–1. Summary of main events that led to the collapse of WTC 1.
Event Number........ Event
1 .......................Aircraft impact
2 .......................Unloading of core
3 .......................Sagging of floors and floor/wall disconnections
4........................Bowing of the south wall
5 .......................Buckling of south wall and collapse initiation




1-6D, pg 314:

Bowing of South Wall

The exterior columns on the south wall bowed inward as they were subjected to high temperatures, pull-in forces from the floors beginning at 80 min, and additional gravity loads redistributed from the core. Figure 5–6 shows the observed and the estimated inward bowing of the south wall at 97 min after impact (10:23 a.m.). Since no bowing was observed on the south wall at 69 min (9:55 a.m.), as shown in Table 5–2, it is estimated that the south wall began to bow inward at around 80 min when the floors on the south side began to substantially sag. The inward bowing of the south wall increased with time due to
continuing floor sagging and increased temperatures on the south wall as shown in Figs. 4–42 and 5–7. At 97 min (10:23 a.m.), the maximum bowing observed was about 55 in. (see Fig. 5–6).

Buckling of South Wall and Collapse Initiation

With continuously increased bowing, as more columns buckled, the entire width of the south wall buckled inward. Instability started at the center of the south wall and rapidly progressed horizontally toward the sides. As a result of the buckling of the south wall, the south wall significantly unloaded (Fig. 5–3),
redistributing its load to the softened core through the hat truss and to the south side of the east and west walls through the spandrels. The onset of this load redistribution can be found in the total column loads in the WTC 1 global model at 100 min in the bottom line of Table 5–3. At 100 min, the north, east, and
west walls at Floor 98 carried about 7 percent, 35 percent, and 30 percent more gravity loads than the state after impact, and the south wall and the core carried about 7 percent and 20 percent less loads, respectively. The section of the building above the impact zone tilted to the south (observed at about 8°,
Table 5–2) as column instability progressed rapidly from the south wall along the adjacent east and west walls (see Fig. 5–8), resulting in increased gravity load on the core columns. The release of potential energy due to downward movement of building mass above the buckled columns exceeded the strain
energy that could be absorbed by the structure. Global collapse ensued.





1-6draft, p 288, Table 9-5 titled "Observations for WTC1", fifth entry:
and
1-6D, p 312, Table 5-2, last entry

Tower began to collapse – first exterior sign of collapse was at
Floor 98. Rotation of at least 8 degrees to the south occurred before
the building section began to fall vertically under gravity.



1-6draft p 290, figure 9-8 on probable collapse initiation sequence for WTC1:

3. Collapse Initiation
• The inward bowing of the south wall induced column instability, which progressed rapidly horizontally across the entire south face.
• The south wall unloaded and tried to redistribute the loads via the hat truss to the thermally weakened core and via the spandrels to the adjacent east and west walls.
• The entire section of the building above the impact zone began tilting as a rigid block (all four faces; not only the bowed and buckled south face) to the south (at least about 8º) as column instability progressed rapidly from the south wall along the adjacent east and west walls.
• The change in potential energy due to downward movement of building mass above the buckled columns exceeded the strain energy that could be absorbed by the structure. Global collapse then ensued.



1-6draft, p 294:

Buckling of South Wall and Collapse Initiation

The inward bowing of the south wall increased as the post-buckling strength of bowed columns continued to reduce. The bowed columns increased the loads on the unbuckled columns on the south wall by shear transfer through the spandrels. Consequently instability progressed horizontally, and when it engulfed the entire south wall, it progressed along the east and west walls. Moreover, the unloading of the south wall resulted in further redistribution of gravity loads on the south wall to the east and west walls and to the thermally weakened core via the hat truss. At 100 min, the north, the east, and the west walls at Floor 98 carried about 7 percent, 35 percent, and 30 percent more gravity loads than the state after impact, and the south wall and the core carried about 7 percent and 20 percent less loads, respectively. The section of the building above the impact zone began tilting to the south at least about 8° as column instability progressed rapidly from the south wall along the adjacent east and west walls, as shown in Fig. 9–13. The change in potential energy due to downward movement of building mass above the buckled columns exceeded the strain energy that could have been absorbed by the structure. Global collapse ensued.




1-6draft, p 317:

Finding 26: The WTC 1 building section above the impact and fire area tilted to the south as the structural collapse initiated. The tilt was toward the side of the building that had the long span floors. Video records taken from east and west viewpoints showed that the upper building section tilted to the south. Video records taken from a north viewpoint showed no discernable east or west component in the tilt. A tilt to the south of at least 8 degrees occurred before dust clouds obscured the view and the building section began to fall downwards.



In reality...

1) building features like the antenna and north wall tilted less than 1 degree during the inital failure sequence.

2) all 60+ columns in the west wall failed within a 0.5 second interval. (which makes no sense if the building moved as the NIST described above)

3) forceful ejections appeared out of the 98th floor windows before any point on the west wall or the antenna began to fall downwards.
http://img690.imageshack.us/img690/9109/femrnew.gif

4) all 47 colre columns have bolted splice connections along the 98th floor about 3 ft above the floor level.

5) overpressure is detected at the 77th floor during the 98th floor column failure sequence as can be seen here:
http://www.youtube.com/user/achimspok?&MMN_position=313:313#p/u/19/acTcwA_YHuA

Just the tip of the iceberg, but a fair summary so far.
 
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Ozeco writes in post 1103: "The big question about the initial collapse is surely "demolition assistance or not?" and nobody with half a brain in 2010 would be supporting demolition."

GIven the information available to me, I cannot support 8 years of murder and theft considering how many questionable, unexplained collapse initiation and pre-initiation features exist for all 3 buildings.
 
Ozeco writes in post 1103: "The big question about the initial collapse is surely "demolition assistance or not?" and nobody with half a brain in 2010 would be supporting demolition."

GIven the information available to me, I cannot support 8 years of murder and theft considering how many questionable, unexplained collapse initiation and pre-initiation features exist for all 3 buildings.

The highlighted portion is a non-sequitur. It "does not follow" from the first part. Where do you get "demolition" from again?
 
Ozeco writes in post 1103: "The big question about the initial collapse is surely "demolition assistance or not?" and nobody with half a brain in 2010 would be supporting demolition."

GIven the information available to me, I cannot support 8 years of murder and theft considering how many questionable, unexplained collapse initiation and pre-initiation features exist for all 3 buildings.

I think you should go back and read that post again, try to get it right this time.
Even if you got it right, it would beg the question, just how much of a brain do you have left?
 
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GIven the information available to me, I cannot support 8 years of murder and theft considering how many questionable, unexplained collapse initiation and pre-initiation features exist for all 3 buildings.
You got information? When will you release it?
 
Has anyone read anything pertaining to at what time in the sequence of events the hat truss failed? If so, what, if anything, did the failure contribute to the collapse?
 
Ozeco, we have been looking at WTC1 collapse initiation features for the last 15 pages or so. A bit off topic but it is the next place to look once the OOS model is generally accepted.

A summary of what we have learned so far regarding the initial failure sequence:

Just as Bazant divides the WTC1 collapse into 5 stages in BZ, I do the same but reword the stages slightly:

stage 1) Airplane damage, fuel and fires

stage 2) Visible deformations leading into initial buckling sequence, especially inward bowing (IB) of the south face.

stage 3) Initial buckling sequence (initial lateral propagation of column failure and trajectory over the first 12 ft.

stage 4) Initial collision and resulting trajectory and behavior through subsequent collisions until the conditions necessary for runaway destruction in local OOS regions.

stage 5) Runaway collapse propagation (ROOSD)


We know that stages 2 and 3 are the most important places to look for evidence of CD and they may be the only times where a CD is distinguishable from a natural collapse.

We also know that the NIST did not do any analysis of stage 3, the initial buckling sequence. Their only descriptions of the WTC1 collapse initiation sequence are incorrect:
...
I have some difficulty with aspects of your particular style of posting. For example who is "we" - is it a royal plural? :) An attempt to incorporate the readers into the expressed viewpoint? :(

However my position is as follows:
I usually divide the collapse sequence for the Twin Towers into five stages:
  1. Impact;
  2. Unfought fires accumulating damage;
  3. Initial Collapse defined as "Top Block moves downwards";
    ___(I sometimes interpose a transition here);
  4. Global collapse;
  5. Aftermath]

In legitimate serious debate - not swamped by "truther" v "debunker" name calling - I endeavour to leave open my opponents options when I have not addressed them in the debate. So, arguing "no demolition", I would make statements such as "...the top block started to fall, showing that the structure in the impact zone had been compromised. Whether by demolition or "natural causes" is still to be addressed..."

In addition my objective is nearly always on the primary technical question - "demolition or not" at WTC. I rarely join debate which is aimed at proving authorities such as NIST wrong - whether that is my opponents primary objective, part of a mixed objective that does not distinguish "no demolition" from "NIST is wrong" OR purely derail/disrupt red herring tactics intended to frustrate debate of the primary question.

Hence those parts of your post targeting "NIST is wrong" are of little interest to me and only serve to obscure what to me is the prime objective. Your objective could be legitimately different to mine BTW. And I have near zero interest in ad homery in whatever forms it takes so the current climate on this sub forum has, for me, high noise to signal ratio.

Now, with all that out of the way, my position on possibilities of CD.

I maintain that there are only two places in the sequence where it could happen:
1) Assisting the impact damage and accumulating fire damage in my stage 3 - your stages 2 & 3 - of the initial collapse stage; AND/OR
2) In the global collapse.

Also that if there was any CD it must have been in the "initial collapse" whether or not it was in the "global collapse".

I recognise that both those statements are trivial logic but often necessary when dealing with opponents who display limited logical kills.

I am committed to what you call "ROOSD" and have been since I first thought the collapses through and published my own explanations late 2007. So I have explanations as to why demolition was not needed for the "global collapse" - the mass falling inside the outer tube - your "ROOSD" - plus understanding of how the core was probably stripped. So I have technical assurance of "no need for demolition" plus I rely on the "impossibility" of demolition on logistic and security grounds to satisfy me that there was actually "no demolition" in the global collapse phase.

As for the initial collapse I understand the various types of mechanisms required to cause a cascade failure to start the initial collapse phase. I cannot quantify those mechanisms to "prove" that there were enough of them without demolition so I rely on the logistic impossibility argument to outweigh demolition in that initial collapse stage.

I regard the whole concept of demolition to assist impact damage accumulating fire damage as not probable - to put it mildly. :) However the tradition is to bend over backwards by debating "truthers" on the ground of their choosing (poor military tactics ;) ) and in one extended debate with a committed conspiracy theorist we identified thermxte cutting of floor joist lower chords as one demolition mechanism which could mimic the type of collapse initiation which happened on 9/11. The logistic improbabilities of that method are pretty obvious. As they are for most others - either pre placed and proofed against early blast off then cook off. Or place after impact by invisible fire suited suicide squads - whilst the fires rage.

We now come to two distinctly different approaches to analysing WTC events of 9/11:
A) One which has many followers who take the detailed science path. Two sub-camps - those who concentrate on calculations of energy and momentum AND those who concentrate on detailed measurement. WHILST
B) I adopt a different approach.

I seek to ask "what were the mechanisms which actually did happen - or could happen and I can assign ball park probabilities. So, noting that the global collapse occurred with the falling mass inside the outer tube, the outer tube columns taking little significant load. I conclude "ten (or twenty) floors landing on one floor is overwhelming overload" and that is all I need to do. I understand that others may be interested in working out the energy etc but it is not needed for my purposes answering the primary question. In that case "no demolition needed". (And that does not preclude "demolition used even though not needed - recall my earlier comments).

So all the metrication and stuff oriented to prove "NIST wrong" does not interest me. Neither do "prove Bazant wrong" or (apologies Ryan) "prove Mackey wrong." Unless the findings of those authorities are raised to counter one of my explanations I am content to "let sleeping dogs lie".
 
Ozeco, a few clarifications first.

1) I am totally bored with the debate about the Bazant papers. Anonymity is good here but I'll cross that line once with a tiny bit of personal info. I have undergraduate and graduate degrees in physics and I am comfortable discussing equations of motion and mathematical derivations. I mentioned something that is pretty obvious to me in the study in the OP, that BV equations 12 and 17 cannot be applied to WTC1 the way Bazant does in BLGB. The crush down, then crush up concept in BV and justified to apply to WTC1 in BL and BLGB is also wrong.

This is not hard to see, yet the same denial continues in the "application" thread to this day. To some, Bazant must remain as unblemished perfection no matter what. Boring.

2) As for the NIST, I was told near the beginning of this thread that the NIST "proved" stage 3, the collapse initiation sequence, was natural. In reality, their descriptions of WTC1 collapse initiation shows they didn't look at it carefully at all. They know nothing about the correct order and timing of collapse initiation events and their scant, incorrect descriptions prove this.

Once again, I run into a blanket of denial from many posters here whose best defense of the NIST seems to be that their description of stage 3 is so ambiguous that it is unclear whether they are wrong.

Sentences by the NIST such as

"The entire section of the building above the impact zone began tilting as a rigid block (all four faces; not only the bowed and buckled south face) to the south (at least about 8º) as column instability progressed rapidly from the south wall along the adjacent east and west walls."

and

"Tower began to collapse – first exterior sign of collapse was at
Floor 98. Rotation of at least 8 degrees to the south occurred before
the building section began to fall vertically under gravity."

are not ambiguous, they are wrong. Once again, pure denial.

This is why points that can be made over a few days require months to make in this forum. Boring. Not my fault or wish.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.

Ozeco post 1117: "I maintain that there are only two places in the sequence where it could happen:
1) Assisting the impact damage and accumulating fire damage in my stage 3 - your stages 2 & 3 - of the initial collapse stage; AND/OR
2) In the global collapse."

I agree except for "and/or". I would write "and possibly".


Ozeco: "Also that if there was any CD it must have been in the "initial collapse" whether or not it was in the "global collapse"."

I agree.

Ozeco: "Hence those parts of your post targeting "NIST is wrong" are of little interest to me and only serve to obscure what to me is the prime objective. Your objective could be legitimately different to mine BTW. And I have near zero interest in ad homery in whatever forms it takes so the current climate on this sub forum has, for me, high noise to signal ratio."

I wish other posters were as reasonable as you. I could have done that part in just a few pages and moved on to the core of the debate, collapse initiation and the events leading to it. I am not the one who needs perfection from Bazant or the NIST. It is best to look past them to the actual events themselves and use ones own eyes. I was just trying to point out the obvious and move on.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.


Anyway, let's look at two features of WTC1 collapse initiation:

We can detect pressurization on the 77th floor during the collapse initiation sequence 20 floors above.
http://www.youtube.com/user/achimspok?&MMN_position=313:313#p/u/19/acTcwA_YHuA

We also see a row of forceful ejections along the west face which line up with the core even before we see drop movement along the SW corner
http://img690.imageshack.us/img690/9109/femrnew.gif

The core is just 37 ft inside the west wall. If if the overpressurization is coming from the core, it is happening at least 1 second before downward drop motion of the antenna or of any point on the west wall.

Pretty strange for a supposed south to north failure by tilting south over 8 degrees.

This is just the tip of the iceberg of things the NIST overlooked.
 
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...
This is just the tip of the iceberg of things the NIST overlooked.
Your model has what to do with NIST. You can't get past this NIST stuff. Does your model stand by itself or do you need to expose your ignorance on NIST again?

Prove it. List the iceberg of things overlooked by NIST. Will it take 9 years for you to list these things. Your CD delusion is lacking evidence. Your last post shows a gravity collapse, your failed claims are cute. (in a new, iceberg of things by you thread, or here in what was your model thread but is now your failed claims against NIST thread)

NIST can be wrong, and the building fell due to impacts and fire. Your CD deal is nonsense and evidence free. A delusion. Better concentrate on your model, not wasting time with NIST.

forceful ejections
Is this the code word for explosives? Sorry, the blast effects are not there. And thermite was made up by Jones, it is a lie. Leaves you with gravity collapse, based solely on your evidence, or the fact you have no evidence to support your failed CD claim. When will you publish any of this stuff to put NIST in their place!?
 
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Ozeco, a few clarifications first...
I'm with you on that.
...1) I am totally bored with the debate about the Bazant papers. ... I mentioned something that is pretty obvious to me ...denial continues in the "application" thread ...To some, Bazant must remain as unblemished perfection no matter what. Boring.
I understand your position and agree with these points. The difference being that I completely walk away from using Bazant as any sort of authority OTHER THAN the "global energy claim" of BZ which I sometimes reference.
...2) As for the NIST,....I run into a blanket of denial from many posters here whose best defense of the NIST seems to be that their description of stage 3 is so ambiguous that it is unclear whether they are wrong....
Agreed - and refer to my comments above re Bazant. Early in my involvement with Internet debate of 9/11 WTC matters I decided to stand aside from use of the authorities NIST, FEMA, Bazant. The reason at that time being that many of those I was debating had a confused objective of "prove NIST wrong" when my objective - and their claimed objective - was "answer the question demolition or not?" So, whether by intent or lack of clear thinking skills, the validity of NIST et al became a red herring to derail and delay debate.
...This is why points that can be made over a few days require months to make in this forum. Boring. Not my fault or wish.
...this forum and the present polarised climate is probably not the place for debates about the boundaries of validity of any of the accepted authorities - whether institutional or prominent individuals.
Ozeco post 1117: "I maintain that there are only two places in the sequence where it could happen:
1) Assisting the impact damage and accumulating fire damage in my stage 3 - your stages 2 & 3 - of the initial collapse stage; AND/OR
2) In the global collapse."

I agree except for "and/or". I would write "and possibly"....
Understood. You are jumping one step ahead of my pedantic step by step logic. It is "and/or" until we pass my next step which is:
...Ozeco: "Also that if there was any CD it must have been in the "initial collapse" whether or not it was in the "global collapse"."

I agree...
...now "and/or" becomes your preferred "possibly". :)
... I am not the one who needs perfection from Bazant or the NIST. It is best to look past them to the actual events themselves and use ones own eyes. I was just trying to point out the obvious and move on....
Which is my policy HOWEVER we approach it from different starting points.

I habitually work from the macro and descend as far as necessary towards the micro. I may as well spell out that macro here. Given the question "Demolition or not at WTC?" coming from "top" down I would identify the "layers" and status (in my opinion) as something like the following:
  • The top level strategic question - "Why?" i.e. why would anyone want to add a complex demolition scenario onto an aircraft crash scenario and do it covertly? My opinion in brief is "Nobody would." Note that "nobody" includes all - US or other nationalities.
  • At the second level - which therefore presumes that somebody wants this demolition despite the previous point - "How?" How would you achieve these demolitions? And keep them secret? At this level my opinion is "nobody could achieve the technical task and maintain secrecy." There are two scenarios for each of the three towers. Scenario One - demolition devices are pre-installed before the aircraft crash. For all reasonable purposes this is impossible on logistic and security grounds. Scenario Two - post installed. Leads to a ludicrous reductio - requiring fire suited suicide teams to install demolition devices inside a burning building without being detected.
  • At the third level - which presumes we have satisfied that someone wants to do it AND has a logistic and security plan which can achieve it undetected we have "How in Detail?" Which bits of structure do you cut and in what sequencing/timing so the demolition is lost as part of the damage resulting from impact and unfought fires. This is the upper limit of much Internet debate I am not aware of even a single "truther side" claim which fulfils the requirements at this level. And it is the highest level that most debate reaches and that only rarely.
  • At the fourth level we have the "technical bits devoid of hypothesis or context" - eg "there was molten metal in the basement - you prove it wasn't from demolition". Discussion of these "bits" is meaningless in the absence of a contextual setting. AND
  • Finally a possible fifth level - bits by innuendo - "There was thermxte residue found on ground zero." Whether there was or not the response is "so what?"

And the debate tends to be biased pro-truther for several reasons. The debunkers are expected to provide explanations generally at the third level of complete technical hypotheses. Truthers operate at levels four or five and try every trick to force the debate down to those levels AND to reverse the burden of proof. :rolleyes:
 
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