dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
Edited by LashL:
Yawn. Same Old S---.
Last edited by a moderator:
-
Security incident: ISF was recently accessed by intruders. Please change your password, and change it anywhere else you used it. Read more
Roll Call: What do you think happened on 9/11, and why?
- Thread starter Oystein
- Start date
Yawn. Same Old S---.
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
We tried "non Intervention" ie, Isolationism in the past. It did'nt work.
Oystein
Penultimate Amazing
- Joined
- Dec 9, 2009
- Messages
- 18,941
tl;dr
I did not mean for all of you to present all of your evidence in one awfully long post. It would have been nice if you had just stated: Who did what, how and why on (and before) 9/11? Specifically leaving out all of the reasons why you believe that story. I just wanted to know what your story is!
Can you please restate that in a briefer posting? Browsing trough your tl;dr, it seems you believe it was a group of Arab hijackers, but that some US agencies and persons (who?) either let it happen, or made it happen, and some (other?) agencies helped to cover up. Is that about the drift of it?
re Summary of post on what happened on 9/11
The US intelligence agencies, the FBI HQ and the CIA knew when Midhar and Hazmi were found inside of the US on August 22, 2001. that they were here to take part in a massive al Qaeda attack that would kill thousands of Americans.
These same agencies had been keeping secret since November 2000, the fact that Mihdhar and Hazmi had been at the Kuala Lumpur al Qaeda planning meeting in January 2000, planning the Cole bombing with Walid Bin Attash, mastermind of the Cole bombing.
All of the terrorists at that meeting had been photographed by Malaysian intelligence and most identified as long time al Qaeda terrorists, and this information sent to the CIA, including Black and Tenet. The CIA was horrified when Bin Attash, mastermind of the Cole bombing was positively identified on January 4, 2001 from the photograph of him at this Kuala Lumpur meeting, actually planning the Cole bombing with Mihdhar and Hazmi. This clearly meant that the CIA was culpable in the Cole bombing attack.
When FBI Agent Steve Bongardt accidentally found out that Mihdhar and Hazmi were inside of the US, on August 28, 2001, and knew they were here to take part in a massive al Qaeda attack that the CIA and FBI HQ had been warned about since April 2001, FBI HQ Agent Dina Corsi shut down his investigation with the excuse, that the NSA information the Cole bombing investigators would need had not been approved to be shared with FBI criminal investigators. But a request for Dina Corsi had been approved the day before by the NSA, to provide the information from the Kuala Lumpur meeting to Steve Bongardt and his team.
When Bongardt protested and requested that Corsi get a legal ruling from the FBI NSLU, to see if he could take part in an investigation for Mihdhar and Hazmi, he was told by Corsi on August 29, 2001 that NSLU had ruled that he and his team could have no part in any investigation for Mihdhar and Hazmi. But in the 9/11 Commission report we are told that Sherry Sabol, the NSLU attorney, had ruled that Bongardt could take part in any investigation for Mihdhar and Hazmi.
Corsi emailed Bongardt on August 29, 2001 and said “If at such time information is developed indicating the existence of a substantial Federal crime, that information will be passed over the wall according to procedures."
But not only did Corsi know, as well as the CIA and FBI HQ, that Mihdhar and Hazmi had taken part in the planning of the Cole bombing, and they also knew that Mihdhar and Hazmi were long time al Qaeda terrorists connected to the east Africa bombings, and that Bin Laden had already been indicted for the east Africa bombings. Since these were crimes, there was no legitimate reason for Corsi, her boss Rod Middleton, and FBI HQ to shut down Bongardt’s investigation of Mihdhar and Hazmi.
It is clear that Corsi was working under the direction of CIA officer Tom Wilshire, and that Wilshire had been denied twice in July 2001 from getting permission from his CIA managers, Blee, Black and Tenet, to turn the information on Kuala Lumpur over to the FBI Cole bombing investigators. Wilshire had sent email to these same CIA managers with his request on July 23, 2001 indicating that Mihdhar and by association Hazmi would be found at the next al Qaeda attack.
On August 23, 2001, CIA managers Blee, Black and Tenet were notified that Mihdhar and Hazmi were inside of the US. It is clear they knew that these terrorists were inside of the US in order to take part in a massive al Qaeda attack that would kill thousands of Americans. So it is clear that when FBI HQ/CIA shut down Bongardt’s investigation of Mihdhar and Hazmi, many of the people at the CIA and FBI HQ , knew the result would be the murder of thousands of Americas in a huge al Qaeda attack as a direct result of their actions in shutting down Bongardt’s investigation of Mihdhar and Hazmi.
On September 11, 2001 Khalid al-Mihdhar, Nawaf al-Hazmi and Salem al-Hazmi were on AA 77 that hit the Pentagon. It is also known that 10 tickets for the 9/11 hijackers were purchased with Mihdhar’s credit card. Given the connection between Mihdhar and many of the al Qaeda terrorists who took part in the attacks on 9/11 it is inconceivable that Bongardt and his team could not have prevented the attacks on 9/11 had their investigation not been shut down.
The US intelligence agencies, the FBI HQ and the CIA knew when Midhar and Hazmi were found inside of the US on August 22, 2001. that they were here to take part in a massive al Qaeda attack that would kill thousands of Americans.
These same agencies had been keeping secret since November 2000, the fact that Mihdhar and Hazmi had been at the Kuala Lumpur al Qaeda planning meeting in January 2000, planning the Cole bombing with Walid Bin Attash, mastermind of the Cole bombing.
All of the terrorists at that meeting had been photographed by Malaysian intelligence and most identified as long time al Qaeda terrorists, and this information sent to the CIA, including Black and Tenet. The CIA was horrified when Bin Attash, mastermind of the Cole bombing was positively identified on January 4, 2001 from the photograph of him at this Kuala Lumpur meeting, actually planning the Cole bombing with Mihdhar and Hazmi. This clearly meant that the CIA was culpable in the Cole bombing attack.
When FBI Agent Steve Bongardt accidentally found out that Mihdhar and Hazmi were inside of the US, on August 28, 2001, and knew they were here to take part in a massive al Qaeda attack that the CIA and FBI HQ had been warned about since April 2001, FBI HQ Agent Dina Corsi shut down his investigation with the excuse, that the NSA information the Cole bombing investigators would need had not been approved to be shared with FBI criminal investigators. But a request for Dina Corsi had been approved the day before by the NSA, to provide the information from the Kuala Lumpur meeting to Steve Bongardt and his team.
When Bongardt protested and requested that Corsi get a legal ruling from the FBI NSLU, to see if he could take part in an investigation for Mihdhar and Hazmi, he was told by Corsi on August 29, 2001 that NSLU had ruled that he and his team could have no part in any investigation for Mihdhar and Hazmi. But in the 9/11 Commission report we are told that Sherry Sabol, the NSLU attorney, had ruled that Bongardt could take part in any investigation for Mihdhar and Hazmi.
Corsi emailed Bongardt on August 29, 2001 and said “If at such time information is developed indicating the existence of a substantial Federal crime, that information will be passed over the wall according to procedures."
But not only did Corsi know, as well as the CIA and FBI HQ, that Mihdhar and Hazmi had taken part in the planning of the Cole bombing, and they also knew that Mihdhar and Hazmi were long time al Qaeda terrorists connected to the east Africa bombings, and that Bin Laden had already been indicted for the east Africa bombings. Since these were crimes, there was no legitimate reason for Corsi, her boss Rod Middleton, and FBI HQ to shut down Bongardt’s investigation of Mihdhar and Hazmi.
It is clear that Corsi was working under the direction of CIA officer Tom Wilshire, and that Wilshire had been denied twice in July 2001 from getting permission from his CIA managers, Blee, Black and Tenet, to turn the information on Kuala Lumpur over to the FBI Cole bombing investigators. Wilshire had sent email to these same CIA managers with his request on July 23, 2001 indicating that Mihdhar and by association Hazmi would be found at the next al Qaeda attack.
On August 23, 2001, CIA managers Blee, Black and Tenet were notified that Mihdhar and Hazmi were inside of the US. It is clear they knew that these terrorists were inside of the US in order to take part in a massive al Qaeda attack that would kill thousands of Americans. So it is clear that when FBI HQ/CIA shut down Bongardt’s investigation of Mihdhar and Hazmi, many of the people at the CIA and FBI HQ , knew the result would be the murder of thousands of Americas in a huge al Qaeda attack as a direct result of their actions in shutting down Bongardt’s investigation of Mihdhar and Hazmi.
On September 11, 2001 Khalid al-Mihdhar, Nawaf al-Hazmi and Salem al-Hazmi were on AA 77 that hit the Pentagon. It is also known that 10 tickets for the 9/11 hijackers were purchased with Mihdhar’s credit card. Given the connection between Mihdhar and many of the al Qaeda terrorists who took part in the attacks on 9/11 it is inconceivable that Bongardt and his team could not have prevented the attacks on 9/11 had their investigation not been shut down.
Last edited:
uke2se
Penultimate Amazing
- Joined
- Jan 4, 2010
- Messages
- 14,424
So, what happened on 9/11?
Oystein
Penultimate Amazing
- Joined
- Dec 9, 2009
- Messages
- 18,941
Thanks for replying, and boiling your story down.
For clarity, may I ask if the following is a fair representation of your story? You seem to focus very much on those who did not prevent the attack und very little on those who carried them out. So:
You think that Al Quaeda operatives hijacked 4 planes, flew them into 3 buildings and 1 field, caused the destruction of the WTC complex thusly (impacts and fires leading to collapses), and did all this to kill as many Americans as possible to ... further whatever objectives they may have had. So far the story most of us subscribe to, right?
In addition, you believe that senior CIA managers, including Blee, Black and Tenet, obstructed CIA and FBI investigations into past Al Quaeda terror attacks and planning meetings, despite having information that they were probably planning attacks inside the USA. This prevented the arrest and/or closer investigation of two of the 19 hijackers. Had they been apprehended in time, the 9/11 attacks would likely have been prevented.
Correct?
Hokulele
Deleterious Slab of Damnation
4 airplanes were hijacked by terrorists ultimately funded by Al Qaeda. 3 of these crashed into buildings, 2 of which resulted in catastrophic failures, and 1 was deliberately crashed into a field.
Why? Although there most likely were influences caused by certain US policy decisions in the middle east, most of it was due to the fact that Osama bin Laden is the south end of a northbound skunk who should have been drowned at birth.
Why? Although there most likely were influences caused by certain US policy decisions in the middle east, most of it was due to the fact that Osama bin Laden is the south end of a northbound skunk who should have been drowned at birth.
SezMe
post-pre-born
My only mod.
Yes you are absolutely correct. There was no real legitimate reason the attacks on 9/11 were not prevented. In fact after putting all of this information together from every single report on 9/11 I could find, I actually came to the conclusion that they did not just let in happen they did everything they could to "MAKE SURE" it would happen. At first I thought the FBI HQ blocked Bongardt's investigation to keep themselves and the CIA officers who had criminally obstructed Bongardt’s investigation out of prison. But what then explains why Corsi sabotaged Robert Fullers investigation for Mihdhar. When Fuller called Corsi and told her he was getting nowhere in his search for Mihdhar even after searching the FBI data base, Choicepoint, and requested permission to contact Saudi Arabian Airlines to get Mihdhar's credit card number and use that with the FBI data base, she denied him permission to contact Saudi Arabian Airlines, she knew this would doom his investigation for Mihdhar and Hazmi, and it turns out she was right, Fuller had gotten nowhere by the time the attacks on 9/11 took place.
This one fact alone is a complete MONSTER! I can see absolutely no legitimate reason Corsi would deny Fuller permission to call Saudi Arabian Airlines in order to get Mihdhar’s credit card number! I can come to no other conclusion other than at that point Corsi, Middleton, Wilshire, FBI HQ and the CIA were doing everything they could to insure that these attacks took place.
If anyone can come up with any other examination for Corsi's action, please feel free to explain these actions here.
Too simple... we need to complicate this beyond the ridiculous...
Oystein
Penultimate Amazing
- Joined
- Dec 9, 2009
- Messages
- 18,941
Ok, cool! Thanks for your detailed story!
@ Everybody: Please be respectful to everyone who relates his or her working hypothesis of 9/11. If you want to discuss any claims and issues brought up here, please do so in an appropriate other thread. I feel that ridiculing any contribution might inhibit further contributions.
I really only want to get a clear picture of what you guys and gals have as your baseline when I discuss individual topics.
I wish jammonius, Bill Smith, RedIbis, bio, MirageMemories, christopher7 and others would post their stories, too. If they do, then all others please reign in your urge to do the usual slamming!
You also failed Reading Comprehension 101.
It asks what happened and "WHY?"
It also says "Rule 1: No discussion, please!"
Last edited:
Oystein
Penultimate Amazing
- Joined
- Dec 9, 2009
- Messages
- 18,941
JihadJane, you said earlier "I don't know".
That's fair. In a sense, nobody knows
But don't you have a working hypothesis? A most likely scenario? A frontrunner? I find it hard to believe that anybody would remain clueless and totally undecided 9 years after!
That's fair. In a sense, nobody knows
But don't you have a working hypothesis? A most likely scenario? A frontrunner? I find it hard to believe that anybody would remain clueless and totally undecided 9 years after!
I Ratant
Penultimate Amazing
- Joined
- Apr 8, 2008
- Messages
- 19,258
.
I was thinking of posting nasty grams here yesterday to the loonies, but had to clean my fingernails, which was more important.
Speaking of loonies, 19 of them flew airplanes into buildings that day.
I Ratant
Penultimate Amazing
- Joined
- Apr 8, 2008
- Messages
- 19,258
.
My sister called to tell me a light plane had flown into one of the WTC towers.
Not outside my experience, as we had seen the hole left in the Empire State building the day after the B-25 flew into it. My aunt lived just blocks from there.
Then the other planes got involved.
After the collapses, took a drive to get some air, and the entire town was shut down.
Went home.
Despaired (and still do) about the stupidities religions create.
RE: How did I get to my theory on 9/11.
I actually spent time a huge amount of time putting the account of 9/11 back together again. It took several years using every single government investigation and report I could find, plus other documents I could confirm as correct, for example, Bob Woodward’s book States of Denial, which describes the urgent meeting in the White House between Blee, Black, Tenet, and Rice and Clarke, where Tenet tells Rice a huge al Qaeda attack will take place shortly inside of the US and kill thousands of Americans, Lawrence Wright's book Looming Tower on FBI Agent Ali Soufan, and the documents actually entered into the Moussaoui trial.
Since much of the information had been left out or deliberately obscured, I had to build very detailed times lines and then figure out who knew what, when they knew it, where did they get this information and did they act like a prudent person would act, once they had this information in order to prevent the attacks on 9/11 or did they intentionally hide the information they had even though they knew it might lead to FBI criminal investigators being unable to prevent the attacks on 9/11.
When documents were in conflict with one another, I had to figure out who or what document was telling the truth. At first this was very hard, but as I worked through the conflicting accounts I found that it became easier to figure out the real account. I used several techniques to do this.
I used what is called consistency to figure out which account matched information that was already available in the rest of the account on 9/11, and almost all of that information had not differed at all even in different accounts of 9/11. Since as this process went on I got more and more information, it was easier to see what information was consistent with what I already had and what information was not consistent with what was already available.
I also determined which account had the most credible information, and in general it was the account that actually had the most detail instead of the account where no one could remember what was said. I also lined up what people actually said with what government documents showed that they actually knew.
For example, the account of the meeting between FBI Agent Dina Corsi and attorney Sherry Sabol, in the DOJ IG report it said no one could remember what took place that this meeting. (NOTE: discovering that the DOJ IG report had intentionally modified a portion of their report to hide Corsi's criminal culpability in allowing the attacks on 9/11 to take place was perhaps understandable but disappointing since in general the DOJ IG report had the most complete picture of what had taken place). Corsi in her email to Liguori and Bongardt says Sabol ruled Bongardt could have nothing to do with any investigation of Mihdhar and Hazmi. But on page 538 of 9/11 Commission report it says, in testimony given to the DOJ IG investigators on November 7, 2002, Sabol says she told Corsi that Bongardt could take part in any investigation of Midhar since the NSA information had no connection to any FISA warrant. Now we know when one testifies to DOJ IG investigators this testimony is written down much like any other legal proceeding.
The 9/11 Commission report accurately put this written account in the 9/11 Commission report but buried it at the back of the report in the foot notes, which shows that even though they had the correct information, they were deliberately burying this information so no one could go back and see the entire picture. The DOJ IG report actually says no one can remember what went on at this meeting when it is clear that was this testimony was not only written down, but was already part of the final the 9/11 Commission report.
Since the 9/11 Commission report came out before the DOJ IG report, it is clear that the DOJ IG inspector could have just read the 9/11 Commission report to know that he was deliberately putting in his report, information that was patently wrong, this in fact is a crime. How stupid does the DOJ IG think the American people were when his account differs from an account that is already in the public domain? Did the DOJ IG think no one would go back to see if parts of his report had been deliberately fabricated and were contrary to information that was already available.
HOW GOD DAMN DUMB CAN YOU GET!
Another example, in the letter to Liguori, Corsi says that the information about Mihdhar and Hazmi cannot be given to FBI criminal investigators because it has not been approved by the NSA to be sent to these investigators. This is fine except for the fact that the written NSA approval is now available in the Moussaoui trail defense exhibit documents and says that this approval was actually granted on August 27, 2001, two days before Corsi tells Liguori and Bongardt that Bongardt cannot have this information because she does not have the NSA approval.
Corsi then really does herself no favors when she emailed Bongardt on August 29, 2001 and said “If at such time information is developed indicating the existence of a substantial Federal crime, that information will be passed over the wall according to procedures."
But not only did Corsi know, she admits this right on page 302 of the DOJ IG report, but the CIA and FBI HQ also knew, that Mihdhar and Hazmi had taken part in the planning of the Cole bombing. They also knew that Mihdhar and Hazmi were long time al Qaeda terrorists connected to the east Africa bombings, and that Bin Laden had already been indicted for the east Africa bombings. Since these were horrific and heinous crimes, there was absolutely no legitimate or legal reason Corsi, her boss Rod Middleton, the CIA officer directing Corsi's obstruction of the Cole bombing investigation, Tom Wilshire, the FBI HQ and the CIA to shut down Bongardt’s investigation of Mihdhar and Hazmi. The DOJ IG report actually came to this same conclusion.
In the end I found much to my surprise that the entire story is actually all there.
It was a huge, long, and difficult process to put it all back together again, so in the end the American people could see the real and complete account of what actually took place on 9/11, an account that is sadly significantly different then what they got from the 9/11 Commission report and the main stream news media, even other books on 9/11 that had not gone to the time and effort to aggregate all of the known official government accounts of 9/11, even though they were available and in the public domain.
There is in fact at least one book with the entire account of 9/11 already on the internet.
I actually spent time a huge amount of time putting the account of 9/11 back together again. It took several years using every single government investigation and report I could find, plus other documents I could confirm as correct, for example, Bob Woodward’s book States of Denial, which describes the urgent meeting in the White House between Blee, Black, Tenet, and Rice and Clarke, where Tenet tells Rice a huge al Qaeda attack will take place shortly inside of the US and kill thousands of Americans, Lawrence Wright's book Looming Tower on FBI Agent Ali Soufan, and the documents actually entered into the Moussaoui trial.
Since much of the information had been left out or deliberately obscured, I had to build very detailed times lines and then figure out who knew what, when they knew it, where did they get this information and did they act like a prudent person would act, once they had this information in order to prevent the attacks on 9/11 or did they intentionally hide the information they had even though they knew it might lead to FBI criminal investigators being unable to prevent the attacks on 9/11.
When documents were in conflict with one another, I had to figure out who or what document was telling the truth. At first this was very hard, but as I worked through the conflicting accounts I found that it became easier to figure out the real account. I used several techniques to do this.
I used what is called consistency to figure out which account matched information that was already available in the rest of the account on 9/11, and almost all of that information had not differed at all even in different accounts of 9/11. Since as this process went on I got more and more information, it was easier to see what information was consistent with what I already had and what information was not consistent with what was already available.
I also determined which account had the most credible information, and in general it was the account that actually had the most detail instead of the account where no one could remember what was said. I also lined up what people actually said with what government documents showed that they actually knew.
For example, the account of the meeting between FBI Agent Dina Corsi and attorney Sherry Sabol, in the DOJ IG report it said no one could remember what took place that this meeting. (NOTE: discovering that the DOJ IG report had intentionally modified a portion of their report to hide Corsi's criminal culpability in allowing the attacks on 9/11 to take place was perhaps understandable but disappointing since in general the DOJ IG report had the most complete picture of what had taken place). Corsi in her email to Liguori and Bongardt says Sabol ruled Bongardt could have nothing to do with any investigation of Mihdhar and Hazmi. But on page 538 of 9/11 Commission report it says, in testimony given to the DOJ IG investigators on November 7, 2002, Sabol says she told Corsi that Bongardt could take part in any investigation of Midhar since the NSA information had no connection to any FISA warrant. Now we know when one testifies to DOJ IG investigators this testimony is written down much like any other legal proceeding.
The 9/11 Commission report accurately put this written account in the 9/11 Commission report but buried it at the back of the report in the foot notes, which shows that even though they had the correct information, they were deliberately burying this information so no one could go back and see the entire picture. The DOJ IG report actually says no one can remember what went on at this meeting when it is clear that was this testimony was not only written down, but was already part of the final the 9/11 Commission report.
Since the 9/11 Commission report came out before the DOJ IG report, it is clear that the DOJ IG inspector could have just read the 9/11 Commission report to know that he was deliberately putting in his report, information that was patently wrong, this in fact is a crime. How stupid does the DOJ IG think the American people were when his account differs from an account that is already in the public domain? Did the DOJ IG think no one would go back to see if parts of his report had been deliberately fabricated and were contrary to information that was already available.
HOW GOD DAMN DUMB CAN YOU GET!
Another example, in the letter to Liguori, Corsi says that the information about Mihdhar and Hazmi cannot be given to FBI criminal investigators because it has not been approved by the NSA to be sent to these investigators. This is fine except for the fact that the written NSA approval is now available in the Moussaoui trail defense exhibit documents and says that this approval was actually granted on August 27, 2001, two days before Corsi tells Liguori and Bongardt that Bongardt cannot have this information because she does not have the NSA approval.
Corsi then really does herself no favors when she emailed Bongardt on August 29, 2001 and said “If at such time information is developed indicating the existence of a substantial Federal crime, that information will be passed over the wall according to procedures."
But not only did Corsi know, she admits this right on page 302 of the DOJ IG report, but the CIA and FBI HQ also knew, that Mihdhar and Hazmi had taken part in the planning of the Cole bombing. They also knew that Mihdhar and Hazmi were long time al Qaeda terrorists connected to the east Africa bombings, and that Bin Laden had already been indicted for the east Africa bombings. Since these were horrific and heinous crimes, there was absolutely no legitimate or legal reason Corsi, her boss Rod Middleton, the CIA officer directing Corsi's obstruction of the Cole bombing investigation, Tom Wilshire, the FBI HQ and the CIA to shut down Bongardt’s investigation of Mihdhar and Hazmi. The DOJ IG report actually came to this same conclusion.
In the end I found much to my surprise that the entire story is actually all there.
It was a huge, long, and difficult process to put it all back together again, so in the end the American people could see the real and complete account of what actually took place on 9/11, an account that is sadly significantly different then what they got from the 9/11 Commission report and the main stream news media, even other books on 9/11 that had not gone to the time and effort to aggregate all of the known official government accounts of 9/11, even though they were available and in the public domain.
There is in fact at least one book with the entire account of 9/11 already on the internet.
Last edited:
Sword_Of_Truth
Penultimate Amazing
- Joined
- May 8, 2006
- Messages
- 11,494
You misspelled "DAMN".
Oystein
Penultimate Amazing
- Joined
- Dec 9, 2009
- Messages
- 18,941
Hey Paloalto,
thanks for pushing me thread!
I think many people might miss your story, when you put it in the "Roll call", because they might not be interested in the roll call (any longer).
Why don't you open a new thread, give it a crisp title, and write an inviting opening post (OP)?
That way, you would encourage actual discussion,. which is strongly discourage in my thread
thanks for pushing me thread!
I think many people might miss your story, when you put it in the "Roll call", because they might not be interested in the roll call (any longer).
Why don't you open a new thread, give it a crisp title, and write an inviting opening post (OP)?
That way, you would encourage actual discussion,. which is strongly discourage in my thread