There is not a single mass grave of holohoax victims.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

When you have come back with your book reports fabrications on Doerner and Longerich, we can resume this discussion.

 

[kerikiwi]

Answer would require honesty or prevarication. Which way you betting?

Outright lying is highly likely.

 

[Saggy]

Edited for breaches of Rule 12 and Rule 0. Stop it already.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: LashL

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Outright lying is highly likely.

Well, his lips were moving.

 

[Uzzy]

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That's right. When thinking is too hard, just bury your head in the sand and issue blind assertions.

 

[kerikiwi]

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Saggy, seriously, what is your difficulty with answering my simple question.
it is a lot shorter than the posts you seem to be reading.

 

[tsig]

You said the Nazis rolled over. No defendant at Nuremberg rolled over. No one admitted anything. Kaltenbrunner testified he learned of the holohoax from allied radio.

Well maybe not 360⁰ more like 180⁰.

 

[tsig]

What a shock ! Kaltenbrunner testified in English. Let's see the original German.

You can read German?

 

[Nick Terry]

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This, dear troll, is what is known as a strawman. This is what I wrote

A leading Nazi (Reichsleiter, Gauleiter or Hitler himself) uttered the words Vernichtung and/or Ausrottung on average once a week during 1942-43 in public statements appearing in the German press, in specific relation to the Jews, often accompanied by further invective that added phrases like 'root and branch' (Kind und Kegel) and 'death sentence'.

See: Bernward Doerner, Die Deutschen und der Holocaust, as well as Peter Longerich, 'Davon haben wir nichts gewusst!' for multiple examples

These speeches were understood by contemporaries, both inside Nazi controlled Europe (we have the diary entries of Germans, Jews and others recording their reactions to the speeches), as well as outside Europe (in Switzerland and Britain, and other place) as meaning extermination in the literal sense.

The Nazi reaction to the UN Declaration of December 1942, which charged Germany with exterminating the Jews, was first to change the subject and witter on about alleged British atrocities, and then from the start of 1943 onwards, to ramp up the exterminatory rhetoric.

Let us take the famous Hitler speech of 30 September 1942 - a speech which came at a point in time when the outside world was quite clear that Jews were being deported en masse from western Europe. Dolfy said:

"If Jewry instigated an international world war for the elimination of the Aryan peoples of Europe, then not the Aryan peoples would be exterminated but Jewry would be. The wire-pullers of the madman in the White House succeeded in dragging one nation after another into world war. But, in the same measure, a wave of anti-Semitism engulfed one people after another and it will further expand and include one state after the next, that joins this war, and each one will turn into an anti-Semitic state over time. The Jews have once laughed at my prophecies, also in Germany. I don't know whether they are still laughing today, or if they have stopped laughing. But I can assure now as well: Everywhere they will stop laughing [Es wird Ihnen das Lachen ueberall vergehen]. And I shall be vindicated in this prophecy"

Commenting on this speech, a Swiss newspaper wrote

A Swiss newspaper, the Thurgauer Zeitung, commented after this speech [on 2 October 1942]
“There is no room for doubt any more: Hitler’s word can be interpreted only in the sense that the extermination of the Jews remains one of the points which will be carried out irrespective of the outcome of the war. Hitler had destroyed all illusions which still existed on the fate of the Jews…”
Laqueur, Terrible Secret, p.44
German:
“Wenn man bisher noch darüber im ungewissen sein konnte, was die nach dem Osten deportierten Juden zu erwarten hätten, so ist heute, nach Hitlers eindeutiger Erklärung, ein Zweifel darüber nicht mehr möglich. Hitlers Worte können nur in dem Sinn interpretiert werden, dass die Ausrottung der Juden einer jener Punkte seines Programms bleibt, die verwirklicht werden, wie auch der Krieg ausgehe”
- cited in Dörner, p.217

while the Manchester Guardian on October 27, 1942 warned its readers not to take Hitler's speech "as just another wild and whirling threat" since Hitler "aims literally at the extermination of the Jews in Europe so far as his hand can reach them".


In Romania, the Jewish diarist Mihail Sebastian noted on October 1 that " ‘The Jews will be exterminated,’ Hitler said in his speech yesterday. He hardly said anything else.”

In Dresden, Victor Klemperer noted,

"“Hitler’s speech at the beginning of the Winter Aid campaign. The same old song mercilessly exaggerated. . . . Merciless threats against England, against the Jews in all the world, who wanted to exterminate the Aryan nations of Europe and whom he is exterminating. . . . The shocking thing is not that a crazy man raves in ever greater frenzy, but that Germany accepts it, for the tenth year now and in the fourth year of the war, and that it [Germany] continues to allow itself to be bled . . .”

Many more such examples could be given. On 17 December 1942, the United Nations declared


'[...] From all the occupied countries Jews are being transported in conditions of appalling horror and brutality to Eastern Europe. In Poland, which has been made the principal Nazi slaughterhouse, the ghettos established by the German invader are being systematically emptied of all Jews except a few highly skilled workers required for war industries. None of those taken away are ever heard of again. The able-bodied are slowly worked to death in labor camps. The infirm are left to die of exposure and starvation or are deliberately massacred in mass executions. The number of victims of these bloody cruelties is reckoned in many hundreds of thousands of entirely innocent men, women and children.'"



There were protest meetings before the declaration, about which Goebbels commented in his diary on December 14 1942

All this won't help the Jews. The Jewish race has prepared this war, it is the spiritual instigator of all this misfortune which came upon the world. Jewry must pay for its crimes, as the Fuehrer prophesied at the time in his Reichstag speech; it means the wiping out [Ausloeschung] of the Jewish race in Europe and possibly in the entire world

Two days before, Goebbels held a conference at the Propaganda Ministry where he was protocolled as saying

Goebbels at Propagandakonferenz of 12 December 1942: “Da die gegnerischen Nachrichten über die angeblichen deutschen Gräueltaten an Juden und Polen immer massiver werden, der Fall aber so liegt, dass wir nicht allzu viel an Gegenbeweisen anzuführen haben, empfiehlt der Minister, entsprechend dem Prinzip, dass der Angriff die beste Parade ist, von jetzt an ganz systematisch – gleichgültig, ob die Engländer etwas zu der Frage sagen oder nicht – unsererseits eine Gräuelpropaganda aufzumachen und unter allerstärkster Betonung über englishce Gräueltaten in Indien, im Nahen Osten, in Iran, Aegypten usw., überall, wo Engländer sitzen, zu berichten. Genau wie die Engländer können auch wir uns dabei auf ganz vage Quellenangaben beziehen, indem etwas gesagt wird: ‘Vertrauenswürdige Männer, die sobene aus Kairo in Lissabon eingetroffen sind, melden, das soundsoviele führende Aegypter erschossen worden sind, usw’. Vor allem in den Auslandssendungen müssen Meldungen dieser Art in grösstem Umfange herausgebracht werden; das Thema muss aber auch in der deutschen Presse behandelt werden, um die Dinge zum Tragen zu bringen. Der Minister ist der Ansicht, dass es auf diese Weise gelingen wird, die Engländer von ihrer Gräuelpropaganda abzubringen und sie in die Defensive zu drängen.”
- cited in Longerich, p.257

In other words, Goebbels had nothing to refute the reports which were piling up in the Allied press since the end of November, so he was going to change the subject and get the Nazi press to play up supposed British atrocities in Egypt.

Yet this still didn't shut Clubfoot up. In May 1943, he wrote an article in Das Reich entitled 'The War and the Jews'

"Kein prophetisches Wort des Fuehrers bewahrheitet sich mit einer so unheimlichen Sicherheit und Zwangslaeufigkeit wie das, wenn das Judentum es fertig bringen werde, einen zweiten Weltkrieg zu provozieren, dieser nicht zur Vernichtung der arischen Menschheit, sondern zur Ausloeschung der juedischen Rasse fuehren werde. Dieser Prozess ist von einer weltgeschichtlichen Bedeutung, und da er vermutlich unabdingbare Folgen mit sich ziehen wird, hat er auch seine Zeit noetig. Aber aufzuhalten is er nicht mehr...

Wir sprechen in dieser Frage ohne jedes Ressentiment. Die Zeit is zu ernst, um naive Rachplaene zu spinnen. Es handelt sich hier um ein Weltproblem erster Ordnung, das von der heute lebenden Generation geloest werden kann und auch geloest werden muss. Hier haben sentimentale Erwaegungen keinen Platz. Wir stehen im Judentum der Verkoerperung des allgemeinen Weltverfalls gegenueber. Entweder brechen wir diese Gefahr, oder die Voelker werden unter ihr zerbrechen... Als sie gegen das deutsche Volk den Plan einer totalen Vernichtung fassten, unterschrieben sie damit ihr eigenes Todesurteil. Auch hier wird die Weltgeschichte ein Weltgericht sein."

So, the Jews signed their own death sentence. Hmmm... I wonder what that could mean.

On 9 October 1943, Goebbels also commented on a speech to the Reichs- and Gauleiter given by Himmler at Posen.

As far as the Jewish question is concerned, he [Himmler] gives a very unvarnished and frank presentation. He is convinced that we can solve the Jewish question throughout Europe by the end of this year. He proposes the harshest and most radical solution: to exterminate the Jews root and branch [Kind und Kegel]. It is certainly a logical solution, even if it is a brutal one. We have to take the responsibility of completely solving this issue in our time. Later generations will certainly not handle this problem with the courage and the ardor that are ours.

On March 14, 1945, Goebbels was even more blunt

The Jews speak up again. Their spokesman is the well-known and notorious Leopold Schwarzschild who now pleads in the American press against any milder treatment of Germany. These Jews should be killed like rats, whenever one gets the possibility to do it. In Germany, thank god, we already took care of it quite seriously. I hope that the world will adopt this as an example.

As I said, this could be repeated for many other weeks and many other Nazi leaders, so it's easier just to point you at Doerner and Longerich.

The Nazis shouted their intentions from the rooftops.

 

[Saggy]

This, dear troll, is what is known as a strawman. This is what I wrote

Are you a complete fool? You can quote as many Zionist flack, or journalists, or historians, or books, as you like. It's just nothing but crap.

The picture at Auschwitz tells the truth. And get the caption... the prisoners are exhausted, so they forgot about being exterminated. The whole of the holohoax is idiotic crap just like this. It is complete nonsense right on its face.

You can dish out 10 pages of idiocy like this. It's easy to refute. I've refuted it twice, with US State Department communications, and with pictures.

Here's another, a classic, completely idiotic 'evidence' from the Jewish Virtual Library ..... the caption 'The Unaware Walk to the Gas Chamber' .... so everyone in the world knew about the hoax except the prisoners right in Auschwitz ....

I'm offended by this obvious crap .... it is beneath contempt. There is only one word for lies like this, can you guess it?

Give us the 'evidence' for this lie.

You can write 10 pages of crap, and this picture, supposedly of people on their way to the 'gas chamber', tells anyone with an iota of sense that the holocaust is a 100% fabrication, a total hoax, that is only supported by .... let's just say persons of no integrity whatsoever. How would you characterize the persons who posted this picture and caption?

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Are you a complete fool? You can quote as many Revisionist flack, or journalists, or historians, or books, as you like. It's just nothing but crap.

Well said!

 

[kerikiwi]

the holocaust is a 100% fabrication, a total hoax, that is only supported by .... let's just say persons of no integrity whatsoever.

And do you Saggy, think it is a good thing or a bad thing that the holocaust didn't happen?

 

[Meadmaker]

Posts like Nick Terry's demonstrate something.

People like Saggy cannot, of course, be convinced that the holocaust was real in any sense. They are beyond rational thought. However, I think there are people, possibly including Dogzilla, who are somewhat different.

I think they have a hard time accepting that there really was a deliberate plan that had no other purpose than extermination. It was not resettlement. It was not ethnic cleansing. Its goal was to kill every darned one of them. That seems impossible to many.

Reading through the easily available reports, then, such as book summaries of best selling books, they are likely to be skeptical, and look for possible weaknesses that would perhaps indicate that the version accepted by historians is based on faulty evidence, eyewitness testimony, biased reporting, or some other evidence that perhaps should not be taken at face value.

However, Nick's information demonstrates that what is summarized in a book like "Judgement at Nuremburg" is just a tip of the iceberg. There are mountains of documentation to back it up. There are train manifests, and engineering documents of gas vans, crematoria builders, and chemists who made different varieties of Zyklon B. There are speeches and diaries and archeological expeditions and forensic analysis and the list goes on and on, and it all points to the same thing. The deaths of the Jews and the Roma wasn't a byproduct of some sort of racist policy; death was the policy. Himmler said it directly in 1943, when he said that it was hard to decide to kill all the women and children, but it had to be done because the women would produce more children, and the children would grow into adults who would seek to avenge their ancestors.

This policy makes a certain perverse sense, in its own way. There was a war going on, and that war was total. Every German citizen was involved in that war, and might be a target. Soldiers were obviously likely to be killed, but civilians were the targets of bomb attacks, and even if they didn't live near someplace worth bombing, there were food shortages predicted. It seems very likely that Jews would not be friendly to the interests of the German army, or the industrial and agricultural complexes that supported it. It seems likely that Jews would be members of the resistance, or would act as spies and saboteurs for hostile powers. Given that simple fact, killing all of the Jews seems like a simple way to protect German lives, and so, that's what they did.

Let's put it this way. If you know that among 1000 Jews there is, somewhere, a member of the resistance who has a gun and will kill a German soldier if he gets the chance, how can you maximize the safety of the German soldiers? Why wouldn't the Nazis take such a simple, expedient, step?

And you might come up with a couple of different ways that you could keep the soldiers safe, but if food shortages were looming due to disruption of agriculture from the war, how can you most easily increase the food supply for the German people?

Does anyone honestly think that Hitler would not order such measures? Really?

 

[Nick Terry]

<plonk>

 

[Saggy]

<plonk>

How would you characterize the persons who posted the picture and caption

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?

 

[Saggy]

Posts like Nick Terry's demonstrate something.

One thing about you offends me, not your idiocy. That's par for the course. But you claim to be Irish. You're LYING.

Now, you tell me, how would you characterize the persons at the Jewish Virtual Library who posted the picture above with the caption?

 

[Uzzy]

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[Corsair 115]

If Saggy can actually think the Holocaust, an event with a huge amount of documentation clearly indicating it took place, is false, I can only wonder what other similarly documented events in human history he must likewise think are false/frauds/hoaxes.

The Apollo moon landings perhaps? 9/11?

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

WWII mass grave found in Slovenia. Gee, I guess there are still some graves to be found, no?

 

[Meadmaker]

One thing about you offends me, not your idiocy. That's par for the course. But you claim to be Irish. You're LYING.

How do you know that? How do you know I am not Irish? Irish people don't talk like me? You may not believe it, but it's true. Ta me Eirannach.

I have no intention of providing proof, but I will provide some more information. My mother was born in Ireland. I was born in the United States, and have lived my life here. Under Irish law, that makes me a citizen of Ireland, automatically. Under US law, the US will recognize dual citizenship if a person, like me, is born with it.

I have an Irish passport, and a US passport. Both are perfectly valid.

As for being Jewish, that's a lot closer to a lie. Neither my mother nor father was Jewish, and I have never converted. However, I am a member of a synagogue, and I might convert someday, if a Reform rabbi will convert an atheist. I think some would. At any rate, tomorrow night I will be in the temple and will wish you all, even you, Saggy, L'shana tovah.

But I like to mix the two cultures.

Cloisigi, a Israel. Is an tiarna ar Dia. Ta an tiarna aon.*


The error of your ways is in somehow assuming that people act a certain way if they are of a certain race. It's stupid, but a lot of people believe it.

ETA: *My guess is this is probably a very bad translation, but my Irish is very weak, and you just can't find the Shema translated into every language just by googling. Someday I'll tackle the Hamozi so that we can say something more appropriate on St. Patrick's Day as we eat our traditional salmon with hazelnut crust.