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Wow, this is just dishonest. You wanted "evidence" that the band was being intentionally stupid so I give you a quote that shows unequivocally they "planned all this out" and you ignore it and comment on the latter part. Nice derail. Not only that but you clearly show your disinterest in talking about the elephant in the room, their entire act is satire. But try to focus on one song in a catalog of thousands, that makes sense
And you've been played by 2 dumb clowns. This "magnet for ignorance" is a well played out stereotype. It's a direct result of the "We don't give a ****" attitude the group has had since day one.
Let's face it their music sucks. It isn't particularly intelligent, it's vulgar, it's offensive, it's everything bad that music can be while being only the slightest bit funny if you happen to have a dark sense of humour.
Despite being voted "The worst band in history" and having the honour of "The worst song ever" they continue to make money and entertain people. Why? Because every time someone comes up with one of these negative reviews they sell more records and make even more money by widening their fan base.
So what does ICP do? They get even stupider and each time say "We don't give a **** what you think". Works every time because some people just don't get that they are being played out as haters. Sound familiar?
(By the way, I saw an interview of Violent J speaking "openly," his words, to his fans at the Gathering where he said they are "broke." Maybe Violent J is lying to his fans or not too smart with money?)
Wow, this is just dishonest. You wanted "evidence" that the band was being intentionally stupid so I give you a quote that shows unequivocally they "planned all this out" and you ignore it and comment on the latter part.
Your response to my post that shows you took my words out of context and misattributed words is to call me dishonest? Four points:
1) My response, "Are we talking about their silly western movie? No. We are talking about a song, particular song they claim is 'meaningful'." Was made to your statement, "For you information Big Money Rustlas is also a satire." You then called me a "troll" and said it was a "dodge". I replied, "Well, if you consider sticking to the topic of the thread and of this discussion, ie 'Miracles,' a dodge so be it." Then you quoted that last part to say "this is just dishonest" and I "ignored" you. (Your statement doesn't even make logical sense given what you ignored in the rest of my posts, but the next three points show why your claim is so asinine and wrong.)
2) The quote you think is supposed to prove that ICP are intentionally/pretending to be dumb is Violent J saying, "I know this sounds crazy, but I’m being as honest as I can: We planned all this out." It does sound crazy. It sounds like the words of someone who has been widely ridiculed and wants to put a positive spin on something after an event happened. That claim doesn't prove intention and certainly doesn't "show unequivocally" anything.
In 1993-1994 a few friends of mine had a band and they recorded at The Disc in Detroit. I met Joseph Bruce and Joseph Utsler several times and they were average guys (big boisterous American, Detroit dudes). I didn't know they were ICP until my buddy told me. I didn't even listen to their music until several years later when another buddy introduced me to them. It was one of those "Who's this?" "ICP" "Seriously?, I met these guys" and the novelty of having met them kind of stuck with me.
ICP, Violent J and Shaggy 2 Dope are all fake.Nothing they say should be taken seriously. Unless you see a quote directly attributed to Joseph Bruce or Joseph Utsler it should be taken with a grain of salt and put in the context of having come from a persona. Even then you need to make sure they don't have their face paint on and they're not just fronting the band and the author just used their real names.
Maybe you don't remember saying that or making that same claim several times? Your own argument demands you dismiss that quote as "evidence" without even critically analyzing the quote. If your argument was logical then maybe you might have realized this several posts earlier instead of throwing those untrue personal attacks.
(Also people here noticed you took my quote out of context to ignore me pointing out your misattribution. You are the one who made a big deal about the "difference" between Joesph Bruce and Violent J.)
You could have said, "Yes, thanks for pointing out that error." But you ignored that point TWICE, which makes me think what you did was intentional. For some reason, you failed to make the connection between your own logic and the Violent J quote, when I wrote: "You quoting it shows you again admit what he says can't always in be dismissed as fictional, contrary to your above claims." Had you replied to that point even once, quoted it or followed along with the discussion, you might have understood why using a Violent J quote was not compatible with your reasoning. You didn't bother to admit that nor correct it. Yet, in the above post you still seem to take Violent J's line as proof for your case, which you cannot if you want to argue Violent J is a fictional character, who in your words "is fake" and says whatever to sell records.
Let's face it their music sucks. It isn't particularly intelligent, it's vulgar, it's offensive, it's everything bad that music can be while being only the slightest bit funny if you happen to have a dark sense of humour.
I'm done responding to anymore misrepresentations, misquotes or logical contradictions.
The original article about ICP:
Insane Clown Posse: a magnet for ignorance The Guardian
By Louis Pattison
August 18, 2010
Fascinated by miracles such as, er, magnets, Insane Clown Posse should be a laughing stock. But their fans – the Juggalos – symbolise a growing reactionary culture in America, in which ignorance is seen as a virtue.
...
Earlier this year, however, the pair further elaborated on their worldview with the single Miracles, a quasi-mystical number about all the wonders of the natural universe that Insane Clown Posse don't – but more importantly, don't want to – understand. The widely circulated highlight finds Shaggy 2 Dope pondering "F**kin' magnets – how do they work?" before announcing his question was effectively rhetorical, because all scientists are "lying m*therf**kers" (Saturday Night Live took this anti-science angle up and ran with it, in style).
But Juggalo culture is no freak of nature. Indeed, one can see it as part of a reactionary groundswell of American culture that sees ignorance of science and book-learnin' not as a weakness, but as a virtue. It's the presidency of George W Bush (famously not really "a details guy"), Tea Party tub-thumpers convinced Obama is a Muslim socialist because Glenn Beck was just thinking it out loud, and creationists disproving evolution by pointing out no one ever found life in a jar of peanut butter.
This is a mindset that knows what it knows thanks to what the US comedian Stephen Colbert called "truthiness" etc etc – defined by Colbert as "a 'truth' that a person claims to know intuitively, from the gut, without regard to evidence, logic, intellectual examination or facts". And it stubbornly refuses to be enlightened. In this TV interview, filmed shortly after the Miracles video went viral, the host presents Insane Clown Posse with a book called The Way Things Work, featuring a chapter on exactly how magnets work. They do not, it's fair to say, look particularly happy.
"It's a lot funner being the dumb guy, because then you get to appreciate the beautiful things like all the miracles we talk about," says Violent J.
"Science can be real exciting," concedes Shaggy 2 Dope. "But I'd rather get what we call p**sy. Know what I'm saying?" Well, quite.
It sounds like the words of someone who has been widely ridiculed and wants to put a positive spin on something after an event happened. That claim doesn't prove intention and certainly doesn't "show unequivocally" anything.
Which is exactly why you continue to ignore a 20 year history of acting like fools, getting a public reaction ie. publicity, thereby widening their fan base. If you want to ignore a pattern of behaviour that's been established for over 2 decades that's your own folly. It's been established unequivocally this is exactly what they do and will continue to do to generate publicity.
You could have said, "Yes, thanks for pointing out that error." But you ignored that point TWICE, which makes me think what you did was intentional. For some reason, you failed to make the connection between your own logic and the Violent J quote, when I wrote: "You quoting it shows you again admit what he says can't always in be dismissed as fictional, contrary to your above claims." Had you replied to that point even once, quoted it or followed along with the discussion, you might have understood why using that a Violent J quote was not compatible with your reasoning. You didn't bother to admit nor correct it. Yet, in the above post you still seem to take Violent J's line as proof for your case, which you cannot if you want to argue Violent J is a fictional character "who says whatever".
Wow, a blogger from the UK presents his interpretation and you take that for fact in place of what the actual artist says? Unbelievable.
"Juggalo culture is what happens when hip-hop settles in the poverty-stricken cities and suburbs of America's rust belt."
Really? So this guys been to a show or the gathering right? I mean he has firsthand knowledge of what's what?
What a bunch of BS. He's just another know nothing reacting to what he thinks he knows. It's all second hand, he's ignored actual quotes from the band to the contrary, and he's obviously never talked to the band. Nice piece of journalism.
If this is the type of garbage you read there's no wonder you are confused. We've discussed everything of journalistic merit in that article, the authors "opinion" as I've pointed out is worthless except perhaps to demonstrate what I've said all along; people like to talk trash without having any real evidence or first hand knowledge.
In this TV interview, filmed shortly after the Miracles video went viral, the host presents Insane Clown Posse with a book called The Way Things Work, featuring a chapter on exactly how magnets work. They do not, it's fair to say, look particularly happy.
lol,what a crock. Violent J literally hugs the book and thanks the interviewer for the gift. Did you even watch the video? You're just recycling a lie, that's pretty sad.
As for the interview itself it's pretty typical of ICP. They're in character and pandering to the audience. They say that the Academy loves the Miracles video, everybody loves the Miracles video. I suppose you believe that too?
The Clown character is really throwing you for a loop isn't it? You don't seem to be able to differentiate them from the actual people. Granted it can be a little confusing, but you aren't even trying because it serves your purpose.
Everything done on stage and in the albums is done in character. They're fictional characters. Granted it's a persona, but a fictional character none the less.
In interviews they fall in and out of character. Most of the time you get the Insane Clowns, but occasionally there's a moment of clarity and they admit to things like "Yah, obviously we know how magnets work, but we're talking about the sense of wonderment a child has at the world and we miss that, we'd rather be starry eyed kids than jaded old scientists that know how everything works and just don't care anymore"
Then it's back into character and "I'd rather get laid, know what I'm saying?"
If you can't discern what they are saying I'd suggest you avoid their music altogether. If you think they "promote" ignorance you'd be terrified at what else they "promote". Scary stuff.
Not that it matters to you, but this point is for others here. I don't want them to be misinformed by you any further.
The author of The Guardian article is Louis Pattison who was an editor for Plan B magazine, a music magazine that closed in 2009. To discover that merely requires clicking on a link. Or to learn that he has extensive history reviewing music, might require more energy such as a google search.
Not that it matters to you, but this point is for others here. I don't want them to be misinformed by you any further.
The author of The Guardian article is Louis Pattison who was an editor for Plan B magazine, a music magazine that closed in 2009. To discover that merely requires clicking on a link. Or to learn that he has extensive history reviewing music, might require more energy such as a google search.
It's no wonder the magazine went under if they were employing journalists with no journalistic skills. There is no supported original content in the that entire article. Obviously the present circumstances don't afford him the opportunity to travel and attend the concerts or meet the bands he's critiquing, but that's no excuse for lazy journalism.
What? Old ICP was just a watered down version of what ICe Cube and others had already done mixed Vanilla Ice. Are you talking about the horror/violence gimmick? Also, are you saying you have absolutely no problem with a band being a huge joke and trying to trick you? Seems pretty hard to respect a disingenuous and gimmicky group like that.
And I guess that most of their fans don't "get it", since it appears that juggalos are a pretty ignorant and degenerate bunch
Despite being voted "The worst band in history" and having the honour of "The worst song ever" they continue to make money and entertain people. Why? Because every time someone comes up with one of these negative reviews they sell more records and make even more money by widening their fan base.
No, actually, they don't. What actually happens is, all the negative reviews prompt people to go watch YouTube videos for free, for which ICP doesn't get paid at all. Then those people laugh, coming to (both consciously and subconsciously) associate ICP with stupidity in all its forms. ICP maintains its current fanbase, who simply buy the new albums as they're released, at the same size. The fanbase convinces itself absent of any actual figures that the publicity over "Miracles" has increased their numbers.
Honestly, in my almost-decade of visiting this website, amongst all the discussion topics I've witnessed from 911 Trutherism to bigfoot and beyond, I have never, ever seen such blatant and shameless slavish fanboyism passed off for rational argument as I've seen coming from you, in this thread. From your multiple contradictory "talking points" to your insistence that the one single magazine article out of the entire set of their interviews that even remotely suggests that they are "just pretending to be stupid" is THE only, authoritative source that anybody should consider, I'm honestly having difficulty imagining that you truly believe anything you're saying in this thread. Look, if you're ICP's number one fan, that's fine; but it almost seems like you're ashamed and thus will strain every nerve to buy into and promote this fairy tale that you and your fanbuddies have concocted that ICP are really comedic geniuses of satire and true fans are the only ones that are really smart enough to understand. It would be hilarious if you also didn't insist on repeatedly insulting our intelligence in the meantime.
Here are some lovely quotes from Shaggy to some kids.
The first one is 12.
"I'm glad you're influenced by us. Do you do any drugs? (the child mumbles no..) ICP- "go home and smoke something."
He then asked the other kid how old he was, and he replied that he was 14.
"Listen, if you're ever going to commit a crime you should do it now because you're still a minor."
Classy bunch. Also, if you want proof of these quotes, they were included in an interview on the O'riley Factor (I don't endorse Bill 'O at all, I'm just saying where you can find those clips.)
Honestly, in my almost-decade of visiting this website, amongst all the discussion topics I've witnessed from 911 Trutherism to bigfoot and beyond, I have never, ever seen such blatant and shameless slavish fanboyism passed off for rational argument as I've seen coming from you, in this thread. From your multiple contradictory "talking points" to your insistence that the one single magazine article out of the entire set of their interviews that even remotely suggests that they are "just pretending to be stupid" is THE only, authoritative source that anybody should consider, I'm honestly having difficulty imagining that you truly believe anything you're saying in this thread. Look, if you're ICP's number one fan, that's fine; but it almost seems like you're ashamed and thus will strain every nerve to buy into and promote this fairy tale that you and your fanbuddies have concocted that ICP are really comedic geniuses of satire and true fans are the only ones that are really smart enough to understand. It would be hilarious if you also didn't insist on repeatedly insulting our intelligence in the meantime.
No, actually, they don't. What actually happens is, all the negative reviews prompt people to go watch YouTube videos for free, for which ICP doesn't get paid at all. Then those people laugh, coming to (both consciously and subconsciously) associate ICP with stupidity in all its forms. ICP maintains its current fanbase, who simply buy the new albums as they're released, at the same size. The fanbase convinces itself absent of any actual figures that the publicity over "Miracles" has increased their numbers.
Their current fanbase was in preschool when they started doing this and they weren't making $10 million a year back then. This is complete rubbish. After Rolling Stone criticized them they sold more records, after Disney caved to the Southern Baptists they went Platinum although the rivalry with Eminem was probably what really pushed them to 1 million units. "Miracles" will no doubt result in a pay off in the form of sales of Big Money Rustlas.
I'd also point out the fact that YouTube has only been around since 2005 and ICP have very few videos. The ones that are on YouTube are censored to death. You're wrong on all accounts.
Honestly, in my almost-decade of visiting this website, amongst all the discussion topics I've witnessed from 911 Trutherism to bigfoot and beyond, I have never, ever seen such blatant and shameless slavish fanboyism passed off for rational argument as I've seen coming from you, in this thread.
From your multiple contradictory "talking points" to your insistence that the one single magazine article out of the entire set of their interviews that even remotely suggests that they are "just pretending to be stupid" is THE only, authoritative source that anybody should consider, I'm honestly having difficulty imagining that you truly believe anything you're saying in this thread.
Strawman, I never once said one magazine article proves they are "just pretending to be stupid". Quite the opposite, I've maintained their entire careers prove they are being intentionally stupid.
Stop using strawmen for your arguments and you won't have difficulty understanding what's being discussed.
Look, if you're ICP's number one fan, that's fine; but it almost seems like you're ashamed and thus will strain every nerve to buy into and promote this fairy tale that you and your fanbuddies have concocted that ICP are really comedic geniuses of satire and true fans are the only ones that are really smart enough to understand. It would be hilarious if you also didn't insist on repeatedly insulting our intelligence in the meantime.
I'm far from being their number one fan and not ashamed by listening to them occasionally. That's complete nonsense. Somehow Gwen Stefani got on my iPod and I haven't deleted it. When it does come on random I don't turn it off. I'm much more ashamed of that. "Hollaback Girl", it's terrible but hilarious
Very few bands have succeeded at being as terrible as ICP for so long. It's a very well orchestrated joke on the part of Joseph Bruce, no doubt as a direct result of his involvement with professional wrestling. I'm sorry but you can't seriously look at their history in it's entirety and come to any other conclusion.
What? Old ICP was just a watered down version of what ICe Cube and others had already done mixed Vanilla Ice. Are you talking about the horror/violence gimmick?
You've come a little late to the show, I'm not going to berate you for it but this has already been discussed. None of this shows causality. It loosely supports the claim that ICP's fanbase is poor inner city kids. We don't know what the exact makeup of the fanbase is, or their IQ's and aptitude scores, but we do know they (poor inner city kids) are more prone to violence and criminal activity.
Unfortunately there's no way to determine any correlation because we don't know the number incidents per capita.
I would just like to go on record as saying I find it very hard to believe that there are currently two threads on this forum about The Insane Clown Posse.
(If this sentiment has already been stated I apologize.)
I would just like to go on record as saying I find it very hard to believe that there are currently two threads on this forum about The Insane Clown Posse.
(If this sentiment has already been stated I apologize.)
Strawman, I never once said one magazine article proves they are "just pretending to be stupid". Quite the opposite, I've maintained their entire careers prove they are being intentionally stupid.
Stop using strawmen for your arguments and you won't have difficulty understanding what's being discussed.
So, they are going out of their way to be dumb and degenerate just for the sake of being stupid. Well, isn't that great. Why should anyone waste their time and kill their braincells by subjecting themselves to this garbage? Last time I checked, trying to be stupid is not constructive in any way. In fact, it just breeds degenerate behavior and anti-intellectualism. Garbage in, garbage out. What you said does not change the fact that their music is worthless. But let me guess, it gives you cheap laughs, so it's all good.
"subhuman"? Is that just Lady Gaga, any 'sufferer' (she doesn't look to be suffering) of an 'admitted' ('disclosed' might have been a better term) narcissistic personality disorder, or does it include any non-neurotypical person human?
Can't recall why I used the word "admitted" there....brainfart on my part, I guess. I apologize. I still think she's scum, though....and an NPD candidate, based on what I've read of her interviews.
She also claims David Bowie as a "major influence" and is unable to name a single one of his songs by title. To some this may well be the greater offense. At least Britney Spears didn't pretend to be anything but stupid. : )
Unless someone is actually advocating censorship, there is no reason to bring the first amendment into this. If someone is criticizing something that has been said, or even arguing that there is a moral imperative not to say something, then as long as they're not actually advocating using the law to prevent a message from being disseminated, the first amendment is irrelevant.
Of course not. And if you do look at their history and come to any other conclusion, it's because you didn't look 'seriously enough'.
I think it's pretty obvious what's going on here and where it will lead. I'm glad you think you're right and every other person here who's looked at the same data is wrong; you seem to be in a very happy place, and I don't think it's worth the effort to take that away from you.
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Their current fanbase was in preschool when they started doing this and they weren't making $10 million a year back then. This is complete rubbish. After Rolling Stone criticized them they sold more records, after Disney caved to the Southern Baptists they went Platinum although the rivalry with Eminem was probably what really pushed them to 1 million units. "Miracles" will no doubt result in a pay off in the form of sales of Big Money Rustlas.
