Ed All 43 videos "Second Hit"" [Explosion]at WTC 2: Plane or No Plane?

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Jam asserts a 'blob' or a 'shadowy thing' hit the WTC. What exactly is 'a shadowy thing'?

Greetings Titanic,

Your question is a good one.

As you should know, but might not know, given the 9/11 denial syndrome, there has not ever been an official determination of what happened on 9/11 arrived at through a valid investigation.

That is to say, what happened on 9/11 was never officially reviewed based on standard investigatory process as to whether or not any flying object, let alone a plane, still less a jetliner and most especially still less a Boeing 767 designated United Flight 175, hit the South Tower. None.

Therefore, the shadow thingy seen in one video version of the event after another remains best described on the basis of the visual characteristics of what is seen, described accurately and precisely.

What is seen is a moving object, sometimes reasonably characterized as the image of a jetliner and sometimes too blurry to be so characterized.

That is what is seen and it is folly to claim otherwise.

This should be obvious, but, for some reason isn't. For example, separate and apart from whether one seeks to place any reliance on, say, the 9/11 Commission Report, that commission was not even formed until 2004, far too long after the event to be a proper investigation. The Commission did not have any evidence, to speak of, to go on that was not already totally tainted by actual destruction, passage of time, undue influence by propaganda; and, most especially, by the commencement of a freakin' war that mandated adherence to the common storyline, standing alone.

There was no way in hades for an actual investigation of 9/11, let alone for questioning of the common storyline, to take place while the USA was bankrupting itself bombing the beejeezus out of Iraq and Afghanistan.

Remember the bombing of Afghanistan started on 10/7/01 while the WTC was still smoldering, to be sure, but no investigation was necessary.

Teevee rules.

And, remember, the impetus for an investigation came from VICTIMS FAMILIES who knew, first hand and full well that there had not been any official determination of what happened to their loved ones up to the formation, amid great fanfare, of that commission.

Despite all the supposed sympathy for victims families, their request for investigation was stonewalled, successfully, for nearly 3 years.

And, even when a commission finally did get underway, it was hamstrung from the outset and did not carryout any real investigation and almost no one, except, perhaps, proponents of propaganda even pretend otherwise.

Think about that in terms of time alone. 9/11/01 was investigation in 2004 pursuant to a haphazard, politically rigged "commission."

The first substitute for the commission is, apparently, the Moussaoui trial exhibits which were not the product of an investigation, but rather, were a grab bag compilation of what the US Attorney could get Zacharias Moussaoui to sign off on. And that wasn't done until 2006, even later than the so-called commission.

Investigations are done as soon after an event as possible, while the evidence is still fresh.

That did not happen in re 9/11. First up in the sham investigatory process was FEMA. They acknowledge that as they were investigating, evidence was being removed, tampered with and otherwise made unavailable to them, irrespective of their limited investigatory mandate. FEMA made no finding as to what happened precisely because they could not do so because the evidence was tampered with.

I don't think I need to reiterate the NIST limitations contained in their report issued in late 2005.

Hello. Is anyone at home?

What passes for proof of 9/11 centers almost exclusively on accepting what was seen on teevee and said by commentators, again, on teevee. From that starting point, all other elements of the common storyline of 9/11 have been drummed into the public consicousness via propaganda, in furtherance of the deadly and gruesomely destructive, shock and awe psyop carried out on 9/11 by persons and entities unknown.

Propaganda remains the key element in the dogged determination of some to further the common storyline of 9/11. Some appear to not care that they are relying on propaganda.

However, it is no longer possible for anyone viewing this thread to pretend that the common storyline of 9/11 is maintained any other way than by the spread and the repetition of propaganda, pure and simple.

Compus continues to try to buttress the claim a Boeing 767, designated Flight 175 hit the South Tower by posting up any human interest story, any memorial eulogy and any photograph of a person said, but not proven, to have been onboard Flight 175, as posted on any DOD or SAIC shadow website, that Compus can scrape up.

Compus is posting up shameless exploitation of victims and of persons who are interested in knowing what happened on 9/11. The exploitation of victims is obvious. I do wish a family member would post up here.

The exploitation of posters and lurkers by Compus is a bit more subtle. The expoitation factor there consists in the necessary subtext of Compus' posting.

That subtext is that anyone who calls attention to the fact there exists no official determination of what happened on 9/11 is not paying proper homage to the victims.

That is shameless exploitation of victims in at least two different ways.

Shame on Compus for posting like that.
 
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Considering the historical record of US govt, its agencies and military, to lie, mislead, cover up and obfuscate, and their capabilities to do so, how certain are you about the nature of the stuff that emerges from your rear? Or anything else at all? Ever heard the name "Truman"?

Look, first you need to study and acknowledge the historical record and the post WWII period is probably the most important one (Power of Nightmares, Secrets of the CIA, Confessions of the Economic Hitman, War Made Easy etc.). Those who are not in denial of this know that to gobble up the official line every single time is not the smartest thing to do.

Then you can look at the recent Washington Post report Top Secret America. US is quite possibly the most secretive country in the world, with biggest number of fulltime jobs dedicated to some unseen agenda. What is not flat out secret is often buried and obstacled by arguably the biggest red tape in the world. What the damn for anyway and, more importatnly, what's truly off-limits in this environment?
And by the way, what's the best breeding ground for CTs? That's right, the secrets of the state. And so, no wonder, US has the biggest number of CTs brewing as well.

Maybe you approve of the most recent wars, Patriot Act and the Homeland Security legislation but it's still not the work of any terrorist. The govt does all the work. Besides, IMHO the old Jefferson's quote still holds:
"People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both."

And all this is just a _premise_, the background knowledge to consider when dealing with CTs. Or it is for me. Another way to deal with the cognitive dissonance is to muffle it behind faith, patriotism or, oddly enough, alleged lack of evidence. Other than that you can call me a truman all you wish...
 
What happened to Ed Felt, J? This question needs an answer from you; not handwaving, not dodging, not word salad that uses 2,000 words to say nothing at all, not silence. What happened to Ed Felt?
 
Posters interested in Ed Felt,

I think we can all agree that Ed Felt is claimed to have been a passenger aboard what was claimed to have been Flight 93.

I think we can also all agree that Wally Miller was and may still be the coroner of Somerset County PA, where Shanksville is located and where alleged Flight 93 is said, but not proven, to have crashed.

I think we can also agree that whataboutEdFelt is being put forward in this thread as a variation on the whataboutthepassengers fallacy, used rhetorically to prove the common storyline of 9/11.

We should also be able to agree that this sub-forum has two relatively recent threads dealing with Flight 93:

Flight 93

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=167169

930 posts
-----------------------------------------------x

Plymouth Wheelcover...

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=169344

676 posts

We should also be able to figure out that if posters want to discuss Felt, Miller, Moussaoui trial exhibits re Shanksville, Flight 93 DNA (or lack thereof), Flight 93 remains (or lack thereof), Flight 93 crash site (or lack thereof), Flight 93 plane debris (or lack thereof), Flight 93 victims (and family concerns), Flight 93 witnesses (and hush money), then the proper place to do so is in one or the other of the existing threads.

Another reasonable, non-derailing possibility is to start a new one dealing with those subjects.

This is my last word on Ed Felt or on anything else having to do with alleged Flight 93 in this thread.

thanks
 
Cognitive dissonance, strawmen and pure speculation in every single sentence.

Look, first you need to study and acknowledge the historical record and the post WWII period is probably the most important one (Power of Nightmares, Secrets of the CIA, Confessions of the Economic Hitman, War Made Easy etc.).

You mistake films and autobiographies for "the historical record". This is little better than the typical truther-approach of proof by youtube.


Those who are not in denial of this

You surely do not mean me? I am not denying any historical record here. I am denying that anyone, least of all you, has provide any credible hint that connects 9/11 with whatever anecdotes from "the historical record" you personally find especially spiteful.


know that to gobble up the official line every single time is not the smartest thing to do.

Strawman. You don't know what I gobble up; this is not a claim made by anyone.

Then you can look at the recent Washington Post report Top Secret America. US is quite possibly the most secretive country in the world,

Typical vain US-centrism. China and Russia come to mind very quickly. Might mention North Korea too.

with biggest number of fulltime jobs dedicated to some unseen agenda.

Not exactly. By far the largest chunk of what Top Secret America documents there is efforts for the regular armed forces. As the USA alone has a bigger military budget than the rest of the world combined (last time I checked anyway), it should come as no small wonder that you find a large apparatus that is subject to some levels of confidentiality. I am not saying I approve of this, but the numbers alone are in no way indicative of any criminal acts against one's own country. There is simply no cognitive consonance there.


What is not flat out secret is often buried and obstacled by arguably the biggest red tape in the world.

Again, China and Russia come to mind.


What the damn for anyway and, more importatnly, what's truly off-limits in this environment?

JAQing off much? Poisoning the well.


And by the way, what's the best breeding ground for CTs? That's right, the secrets of the state. And so, no wonder, US has the biggest number of CTs brewing as well.

Oh I can go along with that, even without evidence. Which doesn't mean a thing. It plain words, you are saying: "In the absence of evidence, I can spit out any fantasy I like". And that is precisely what you do.


Maybe you approve of the most recent wars, Patriot Act and the Homeland Security legislation

Strawman and poisoning the well. I do not approve of many of the political decisions taken after 9/11. But you have to show how these decisions are incriminating anyone with regards to "who did 9/11". You'd have to show that if the "OCT" was true after all, policy would have been different.

but it's still not the work of any terrorist.

Strawman. Nobody claims US policy after 9/11 was the work of anyone but the US government. That however has no logical connection to the actual claim that islamic terrorists carried out 9/11.


The govt does all the work.

Of governing, yes.


Besides, IMHO the old Jefferson's quote still holds:
"People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both."

I applaude Jefferson for his wisdom and pity the American population for re-electing Bush in 2004. So?
You might also consider the old quote commonly (albeit I think erroneously) attributed to Benjamin Franklin: "Three men can keep a secret if two of them are dead". Which I think is far more applicable to any and all CT's, including the OCT.


And all this is just a _premise_, the background knowledge to consider when dealing with CTs.

This is by far not all the background you need. A good background of facts pertaining to the specific case at hand is a far more valuable tool, and one which you seem to be largely lacking.


Or it is for me.

Maybe. Cherry-pick some of the more spectacular claims on the fringe, ignore the relevant evidence, and imagine away.


Another way to deal with the cognitive dissonance is to muffle it behind faith,

It is faith if you assume in the absence of knowledge of reality, and without relevant evidence. Which is what you do, not us.


patriotism

I am not even American, thank you.


or, oddly enough, alleged lack of evidence.

You have not brought any evidence to the table to prove your assumptions about the speific case at hand, which is 9/11.
This forum on the other hand is more than full to the brim with evidence that the OCT is trustworthy to a large degree, as it explains pretty much all obeservations with evidence and needs only few and reasonable assumptions. I think no one here would claim that every aspect of 9/11 is known to 100%. But there is little wiggle room left, as is most poignantly illustrated by the fact that there doesn't even exist a full alternative theory.


Other than that you can call me a truman all you wish...

Wrong. I am not calling you a Truman. I am calling you someone who posits that the world is a Truman Show in which the all-powerful government can create fake reality at will. You kiking us to Truman, with you being one of the few who see through the show.
 
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Besides, IMHO the old Jefferson's quote still holds:
"People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both."
.
Even if Jefferson never said it, since it is a paraphrase of something Ben Franklin wrote?

This is the way you "research" everything you post, isn't it?
.
 
Posters interested in Ed Felt,

...

Another word salad with links to more word salads that do everything except explain what you and your theory can say about the fate of Ed Felt. If you DID have anything to say, you could do it in 9 words at the most, as the following alternatives enumerate the possibilites completely:

- Ed felt died in a plane crash on 9/11 (9 words)
- Ed Felt died on 9/11 by other means (8 words)
- Ed Felt never existed (4 words)
- Ed felt died before 9/11 (5 words)
- Ed Felt lived after 9/11 (5 words)

Please, jammonius. 9 words or less: What about Ed Felt?
 
1) What do you make of the quote? "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" ?

Here's what I make of it: It applies equally to the person who responds to what is said.

2) Would you agree that to "write off" a person cca 214 times basically about the same thing in the same derisive or insulting manner won't likely make them to stop?

I'll get back to you when I finish parsing that sentence. Shouldn't be more than a few days.

3) What kind of claims do you expect to find in Conspiracy theories forum anyway?

The only difference between my absurd example (everyone removes their intestines at night) and jammonius' absurd claim (there were no planes on 9/11) is that my claim is not based on some ideological belief. As far as credibility goes, they are on the same level -- clearly untrue from the viewpoint of any sane person.

So, to answer your question...on a conspiracy theories forum, I expect to see claims that are based on the overactive imagination of someone with an axe to grind, rather than reality.

I sometimes find this highly entertaining, sometimes very, very sad.
 
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I again smile at ideologues claiming that those who disagree with his views must simply be swallowing the government "party line" without question.

What a flippin' cop out.
 
Greetings Titanic,

Your question is a good one.
Words Salad, blah blah blah, handwave, dismiss, dodge, blah blah blah.

Amazing. What were those FBI, NTSB, ATF, State police, and local police, doing around the ara on 9/11, and throught the next 6 months or more? Were they hanging out with strippers and boozing it up? Nope.

The investigation into the events of 9/11 started on, I'd guess, about 10 am that morning.

http://www.fbi.gov/pressrel/pressrel01/092701hjpic.htm

http://www.fbi.gov/pressrel/penttbom/penttbomb.htm
 
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Posters interested in Ed Felt,

I think we can all agree that Ed Felt is claimed to have been a passenger aboard what was claimed to have been Flight 93.


We don't know what Jam says about how Ed's DNA wound up in the debris of Flight 93 in Shanksville. The link Jam provides is just another dodge on Jam's part.

How did Ed's DNA wind up in Shanksville?
 
We should also be able to figure out that if posters want to discuss Felt, Miller, Moussaoui trial exhibits re Shanksville, Flight 93 DNA (or lack thereof), Flight 93 remains (or lack thereof), Flight 93 crash site (or lack thereof), Flight 93 plane debris (or lack thereof), Flight 93 victims (and family concerns), Flight 93 witnesses (and hush money), then the proper place to do so is in one or the other of the existing threads.

When this becomes the the Jammonius Reverse Education Forum, then I'll give a flying fig about what can be posted and until then, those questions aren't going away because all of the above cut right to the heart of your delusion.

And you forgot about the thousands of eyewitnesses in Manhattan. Were they paid off too?

That would explain why the US economy tanked - We went broke paying off witnesses. :cool:
 
My responses to Jammy are in bold



Greetings Titanic,

Your question is a good one.

As you should know, but might not know, given the 9/11 denial syndrome, there has not ever been an official determination of what happened on 9/11 arrived at through a valid investigation
.


Incorrect. We know what happened. 4 planes were hijacked on 9/11, killing all those on board. You refuse to accept this, and your theory is backed by zero evidence.





That is to say, what happened on 9/11 was never officially reviewed based on standard investigatory process as to whether or not any flying object, let alone a plane, still less a jetliner and most especially still less a Boeing 767 designated United Flight 175, hit the South Tower. None.



Ridiculous. The flights were tracked by radar, the planes that hit the WTC were filmed, and I know you refuse to accept this, but there were thousands of eye witnesses on site who saw planes hit the towers. Plus debris from the planes and body parts from people on board were blasted all over the area. You have yet to offer solid proof to contradict any of this.






Therefore, the shadow thingy seen in one video version of the event after another remains best described on the basis of the visual characteristics of what is seen, described accurately and precisely.
What is seen is a moving object, sometimes reasonably characterized as the image of a jetliner and sometimes too blurry to be so characterized
.


There were EYE WITNESSES that saw two planes hit the WTC (Witnesses on the ground and INSIDE the Twin Towers). Both crashes were caught on film. Debris from the planes was strewn everywhere. You just choose to ignore reality.




That is what is seen and it is folly to claim otherwise.


Your fondness of illogic and fantasy fascinates me.



This should be obvious, but, for some reason isn't. For example, separate and apart from whether one seeks to place any reliance on, say, the 9/11 Commission Report, that commission was not even formed until 2004, far too long after the event to be a proper investigation. The Commission did not have any evidence, to speak of, to go on that was not already totally tainted by actual destruction, passage of time, undue influence by propaganda; and, most especially, by the commencement of a freakin' war that mandated adherence to the common storyline, standing alone.



I'll say it again- both planes that were flown into the WTC were caught on film, there were thousands of eye witnesses who were there, there were calls from the planes, plane debris and pieces of the people on the planes were found at Ground Zero, and the people who boarded the planes haven't been seen alive since 9/11. Again, you have offered zero proof to back your no-planer theory.

Your simply not believing there were planes is not 'proof'- just as a Creationist not beliving in Evolution doesn't disprove Evolution.





There was no way in hades for an actual investigation of 9/11, let alone for questioning of the common storyline, to take place while the USA was bankrupting itself bombing the beejeezus out of Iraq and Afghanistan.


Could this be your underlying agenda- a hatred of America because of it's foreign policy in the Middle East, and thus a distrust in the US government?



Remember the bombing of Afghanistan started on 10/7/01 while the WTC was still smoldering, to be sure, but no investigation was necessary.



How on earth does that support your 'no-planer' deslusion?
You have the habit of making many conclusions wiothout any evidence whatsoever.





Teevee rules.


Do you think all the video footage taken of the planes hitting the towers are fakes? if so, what is your proof?



And, remember, the impetus for an investigation came from VICTIMS FAMILIES who knew, first hand and full well that there had not been any official determination of what happened to their loved ones up to the formation, amid great fanfare, of that commission.



You presume to speak for the families? What about Ed Felt's family? You don't seem to think he existed at all.




Despite all the supposed sympathy for victims families, their request for investigation was stonewalled, successfully, for nearly 3 years.


Again, you do not speak for the families- you have shown a callious disregard for the families.


And, even when a commission finally did get underway, it was hamstrung from the outset and did not carryout any real investigation and almost no one, except, perhaps, proponents of propaganda even pretend otherwise.



Prove that there was any propaganda. In your eyes, the fact that planes hit the WTC was propaganda.PROVE IT!



Think about that in terms of time alone. 9/11/01 was investigation in 2004 pursuant to a haphazard, politically rigged "commission."



And your proof would be...? Sorry, this is your deluded *opinion", one which is wrong.




The first substitute for the commission is, apparently, the Moussaoui trial exhibits which were not the product of an investigation, but rather, were a grab bag compilation of what the US Attorney could get Zacharias Moussaoui to sign off on. And that wasn't done until 2006, even later than the so-called commission.


More opinion...*sigh*




Investigations are done as soon after an event as possible, while the evidence is still fresh. That did not happen in re 9/11. First up in the sham investigatory process was FEMA.


Wrong again. How was it a sham? PROVE IT.





They acknowledge that as they were investigating, evidence was being removed, tampered with and otherwise made unavailable to them, irrespective of their limited investigatory mandate.


You have NO PROOF of tampering or removal, again, like all Trutherbots, all you have is paranoia fueled speculation.


FEMA made no finding as to what happened precisely because they could not do so because the evidence was tampered with.



What is your proof of this? You have ZERO evidence to back this claim.
Jammy, you fail to see that the burden is on YOU to back your claims, and to date, you've failed miserably
.



Hello. Is anyone at home?


I'll ask you the same question. You post many pages, yet say nothing You offer wild allegations, but have nothing to back up you claims, save for strawmen and paranoia.



What passes for proof of 9/11 centers almost exclusively on accepting what was seen on teevee and said by commentators, again, on teevee.


The video footage from different angles of the planes hitting the towers, which you dismiss as fake (without proof of course). You also dismiss eye witness accounts, as you seem to think only 12 people live in New York City.





From that starting point, all other elements of the common storyline of 9/11 have been drummed into the public consicousness via propaganda, in furtherance of the deadly and gruesomely destructive, shock and awe psyop carried out on 9/11 by persons and entities unknown.

Tinfoil hat, paranoid drivel. Again, you have zero proof



Propaganda remains the key element in the dogged determination of some to further the common storyline of 9/11. Some appear to not care that they are relying on propaganda.

And your proof would be???


However, it is no longer possible for anyone viewing this thread to pretend that the common storyline of 9/11 is maintained any other way than by the spread and the repetition of propaganda, pure and simple.

More paranoid drivel.


Compus continues to try to buttress the claim a Boeing 767, designated Flight 175 hit the South Tower by posting up any human interest story, any memorial eulogy and any photograph of a person said, but not proven, to have been onboard Flight 175, as posted on any DOD or SAIC shadow website, that Compus can scrape up.


You don't need to remind us that you care nothing for the people who were killed on 9/11 (or their families), you have made that crystal clear.
Compus reagards the people who died as human beings, that had lives and loved ones, his postes reflect that. You are the one who question of those people even existed.

What is your proof that people like Ed Felt and Betty Ong were not killed on 9/11? These people were far more than mere 'human interest stories', but i wouldn't expect you to understand that.



Compus is posting up shameless exploitation of victims and of persons who are interested in knowing what happened on 9/11. The exploitation of victims is obvious. I do wish a family member would post up here.


Most 9/11 family members would see you as a ghoul, one so deeply wrapped up in insane paranoid conspiracy theories, they would suggest you seek psychiatric help. You have not once given a direct answer to what you think happened to all the people who were on the planes that crashed on 9/11. You doubt the planes crashed- so where are the people? You have implied you don't think they died at all- that calls the 9/11 families liars. I don't think they would appreciate that.


The exploitation of posters and lurkers by Compus is a bit more subtle. The expoitation factor there consists in the necessary subtext of Compus' posting.


The only exploitation here is being done by you, in exploiting the memories of those who died on the planes (by denying they really died) to promote your no-planer theory.


That subtext is that anyone who calls attention to the fact there exists no official determination of what happened on 9/11 is not paying proper homage to the victims.

Nice projection. You have questioned if there were any victims in the first place. What happened to Betty Ong?


That is shameless exploitation of victims in at least two different ways.

Shame on Compus for posting like that
.


Shame on you for being an apologist for the 19 Islamic hijackers, and for questioning if the people who were killed when the 4 planes that were hijacked and deliberatly crashed ever existed.

Jammy, you are like a trainwreck that never stops- I have never seen someone who offers such lengthy postes about a crackpot theory, yet is so evasive in answering questions, and so unable to provide proof to back their theories.
 
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The crew and passengers of United Airlines Flight 175

On the morning of September 11 2001, United Airlines Flight 175 was flying to Los Angeles from Boston, and was hijacked by Islamic terrorists. Shortly after taking off it was deliberately flown into the South Tower of the World Trade Centre, New York.

59 passengers and crew were on board (not counting the hijackers).

All were killed.


UNITED AIRLINES FLIGHT 175 PASSENGERS

Graham Andrew Berkeley, 37, was a passenger on Flight 175. He lived in Provincetown, Massachusetts. He was born Worksop, Nottinghamshie, UK, but settled in the US and was granted permanent resident staus in June 2001. He worked as a director of e-commerce solutions for Compuware Corp. Graham was a talented musician, he played violin and viola and had studied at the Royal College of Music.

He left behind his mother and father Pauline and Charles Berkeley and brothers Chris and John.

At the memorial service for Graham held in New York during October 2001, his brother Chris said, "Graham brought us great joy. As a baby, his sweet nature and beaming smile lit up our lives. As he grew up we marveled at his determination to excel in all he did and gloried in his love for and prowess at music making. His violin playing brought wonderful music into our lives and we hold it in our memories of him.....To us Graham was our ‘lark’, he soared high and made beautiful music".


344914c51956f0c601.jpg



Source:- HERE HERE HERE


Immutable facts. Unassailable reason.


Compus
 
On the morning of September 11 2001, United Airlines Flight 175 was flying to Los Angeles from Boston, and was hijacked by Islamic terrorists. Shortly after taking off it was deliberately flown into the South Tower of the World Trade Centre, New York.

59 passengers and crew were on board (not counting the hijackers).

All were killed.


UNITED AIRLINES FLIGHT 175 PASSENGERS

Graham Andrew Berkeley, 37, was a passenger on Flight 175. He lived in Provincetown, Massachusetts. He was born Worksop, Nottinghamshie, UK, but settled in the US and was granted permanent resident staus in June 2001. He worked as a director of e-commerce solutions for Compuware Corp. Graham was a talented musician, he played violin and viola and had studied at the Royal College of Music.

He left behind his mother and father Pauline and Charles Berkeley and brothers Chris and John.

At the memorial service for Graham held in New York during October 2001, his brother Chris said, "Graham brought us great joy. As a baby, his sweet nature and beaming smile lit up our lives. As he grew up we marveled at his determination to excel in all he did and gloried in his love for and prowess at music making. His violin playing brought wonderful music into our lives and we hold it in our memories of him.....To us Graham was our ‘lark’, he soared high and made beautiful music".


[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/344914c51956f0c601.jpg[/qimg]


Source:- HERE HERE HERE


Immutable facts. Unassailable reason.


Compus

Thank you for posting details about some of the victims, in particular their pictures. Jammy thinks this is propaganda, but i think your postes are important as they show the people killed on 9/11 had lives, and are still missed by those left behind.
 
Greetings Titanic,

Your question is a good one.

As you should know, but might not know, given the 9/11 denial syndrome, there has not ever been an official determination of what happened on 9/11 arrived at through a valid investigation.

That is to say, what happened on 9/11 was never officially reviewed based on standard investigatory process as to whether or not any flying object, let alone a plane, still less a jetliner and most especially still less a Boeing 767 designated United Flight 175, hit the South Tower. None.

Therefore, the shadow thingy seen in one video version of the event after another remains best described on the basis of the visual characteristics of what is seen, described accurately and precisely.

What is seen is a moving object, sometimes reasonably characterized as the image of a jetliner and sometimes too blurry to be so characterized.

That is what is seen and it is folly to claim otherwise.

This should be obvious, but, for some reason isn't. For example, separate and apart from whether one seeks to place any reliance on, say, the 9/11 Commission Report, that commission was not even formed until 2004, far too long after the event to be a proper investigation. The Commission did not have any evidence, to speak of, to go on that was not already totally tainted by actual destruction, passage of time, undue influence by propaganda; and, most especially, by the commencement of a freakin' war that mandated adherence to the common storyline, standing alone.

There was no way in hades for an actual investigation of 9/11, let alone for questioning of the common storyline, to take place while the USA was bankrupting itself bombing the beejeezus out of Iraq and Afghanistan.

Remember the bombing of Afghanistan started on 10/7/01 while the WTC was still smoldering, to be sure, but no investigation was necessary.

Teevee rules.

And, remember, the impetus for an investigation came from VICTIMS FAMILIES who knew, first hand and full well that there had not been any official determination of what happened to their loved ones up to the formation, amid great fanfare, of that commission.

Despite all the supposed sympathy for victims families, their request for investigation was stonewalled, successfully, for nearly 3 years.

And, even when a commission finally did get underway, it was hamstrung from the outset and did not carryout any real investigation and almost no one, except, perhaps, proponents of propaganda even pretend otherwise.

Think about that in terms of time alone. 9/11/01 was investigation in 2004 pursuant to a haphazard, politically rigged "commission."

The first substitute for the commission is, apparently, the Moussaoui trial exhibits which were not the product of an investigation, but rather, were a grab bag compilation of what the US Attorney could get Zacharias Moussaoui to sign off on. And that wasn't done until 2006, even later than the so-called commission.

Investigations are done as soon after an event as possible, while the evidence is still fresh.

That did not happen in re 9/11. First up in the sham investigatory process was FEMA. They acknowledge that as they were investigating, evidence was being removed, tampered with and otherwise made unavailable to them, irrespective of their limited investigatory mandate. FEMA made no finding as to what happened precisely because they could not do so because the evidence was tampered with.

I don't think I need to reiterate the NIST limitations contained in their report issued in late 2005.

Hello. Is anyone at home?

What passes for proof of 9/11 centers almost exclusively on accepting what was seen on teevee and said by commentators, again, on teevee. From that starting point, all other elements of the common storyline of 9/11 have been drummed into the public consicousness via propaganda, in furtherance of the deadly and gruesomely destructive, shock and awe psyop carried out on 9/11 by persons and entities unknown.

Propaganda remains the key element in the dogged determination of some to further the common storyline of 9/11. Some appear to not care that they are relying on propaganda.

However, it is no longer possible for anyone viewing this thread to pretend that the common storyline of 9/11 is maintained any other way than by the spread and the repetition of propaganda, pure and simple.

Compus continues to try to buttress the claim a Boeing 767, designated Flight 175 hit the South Tower by posting up any human interest story, any memorial eulogy and any photograph of a person said, but not proven, to have been onboard Flight 175, as posted on any DOD or SAIC shadow website, that Compus can scrape up.

Compus is posting up shameless exploitation of victims and of persons who are interested in knowing what happened on 9/11. The exploitation of victims is obvious. I do wish a family member would post up here.

The exploitation of posters and lurkers by Compus is a bit more subtle. The expoitation factor there consists in the necessary subtext of Compus' posting.

That subtext is that anyone who calls attention to the fact there exists no official determination of what happened on 9/11 is not paying proper homage to the victims.

That is shameless exploitation of victims in at least two different ways.

Shame on Compus for posting like that.

If there were no planes then there were no victims.
 
These arguments are all based on unverifiable assumptions. If the insurers had documented their identification of the plane parts, for example, you might have a hint of some evidence.

I must admit that this kind of argument is odd. If it wasn't because the evidence was pretty much incontrovertible, why exactly do YOU think the insurers paid their claims? Do you think the insurance companies were 'in on it'?
 
Cognitive dissonance, strawmen and pure speculation in every single sentence. <snip>

What a dissection you made there. But hey, I chose my wording carefully to not address your particular beliefs or opinions I couldn't have known in advance. I spoke about general trends that correspond with my experience and knowledge. If you have found yourself in them, that's another matter. I am also not aware I was poisoning the well. I have by no means implied that the historical record I spoke of and the management of secrets in US was the grounds to lump everything together and come up with some kind of black-and-white picture. My point was to introduce the realm of possibilities based on past evidence and current modus operandi. Though it may sound trivial to you, I've met many people who were completely unaware of these contexts when backing up the govt one way or another.

By the way what _do_ you count in the historical record? Your words sound like the sole reliance on some "official" sources (and I'd gladly be wrong in that).

This forum on the other hand is more than full to the brim with evidence that the OCT is trustworthy to a large degree, as it explains pretty much all obeservations with evidence and needs only few and reasonable assumptions. I think no one here would claim that every aspect of 9/11 is known to 100%. But there is little wiggle room left, as is most poignantly illustrated by the fact that there doesn't even exist a full alternative theory.

Thank you for this. It's been a long time a "non-truther" used the term 'OCT'
in my presence. But mind you, OCT is by no means complete, NIST didn't cover the progression of the towers' fall and there's virtually nothing about WTC7 in the 9/11 omission report, just to name a couple of examples. Sometimes when no question is asked, there's no need to answer it, right? As much as my time allows me, I try to learn to what extent the OCT and other theories are lacking or wrong . The whole 9/11 aftermath picked my interest...

Finally, you're welcome to comment on my points which are still unresolved any time you see fit.

aggle-rithm said:
Here's what I make of it: It applies equally to the person who responds to what is said.

Bottom line being, if a poster is not insulting you directly, it shouldn't be your business to "correct" them by the means of insults, right? I don't mean you in particular...

I'll get back to you when I finish parsing that sentence. Shouldn't be more than a few days.

:rolleyes: Is my English that bad today? Let me rephrase: it doesn't do anyone any good if the same people come back and post their derisive and sneering comments over and over again as a response to someone's extraordinary claims. Now, would you agree?
 
Posters interested in Ed Felt,

I think we can all agree that Ed Felt is claimed to have been a passenger aboard what was claimed to have been Flight 93.

I think we can also all agree that Wally Miller was and may still be the coroner of Somerset County PA, where Shanksville is located and where alleged Flight 93 is said, but not proven, to have crashed.

I think we can also agree that whataboutEdFelt is being put forward in this thread as a variation on the whataboutthepassengers fallacy, used rhetorically to prove the common storyline of 9/11.

We should also be able to agree that this sub-forum has two relatively recent threads dealing with Flight 93:

Flight 93

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=167169

930 posts
-----------------------------------------------x

Plymouth Wheelcover...

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=169344

676 posts

We should also be able to figure out that if posters want to discuss Felt, Miller, Moussaoui trial exhibits re Shanksville, Flight 93 DNA (or lack thereof), Flight 93 remains (or lack thereof), Flight 93 crash site (or lack thereof), Flight 93 plane debris (or lack thereof), Flight 93 victims (and family concerns), Flight 93 witnesses (and hush money), then the proper place to do so is in one or the other of the existing threads.

Another reasonable, non-derailing possibility is to start a new one dealing with those subjects.

This is my last word on Ed Felt or on anything else having to do with alleged Flight 93 in this thread.

thanks

Why don't you contact Ed's family?
 
Yes, why should WE contact Ed's family? We don't disagree with them. Jammonius is the one who has a problem. In his mind these people are lying.
 
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