Why do people insist AA is not religious?/Efficacy of AA & other treatment programs

[Nanny Ogg]

Why do people insist AA is not religious?/Efficacy of AA & other treatment programs

I'm dealing with a spouse who has alcohol issues. His first therapist (social worker) told him to go to a Beginner's AA meeting, and to "Keep An Open Mind."

He went, and was instantly uncomfortable. Not only was Jesus Christ mentioned constantly as the Savior, but the meeting ended with, "The Lord's Prayer."

He related this to the social worker, who berated him for not going to a Beginner's meeting. (Which it WAS listed as.) And then told him that, "The Lord's Prayer" is not really religious, anyway.

My husband now sees a psychologist who specializes in cognitive behavior and doesn't push AA.

Now I'm furious that MY new therapist is telling me that AA would be a good resource for my husband. "It's not religious, it's spiritual," and "Your higher power can be anything at all, the ocean, even yourself."

I'm not confrontational, and I tried to remember some of the advice I've received here about debating. I told her that I had done research on AA, that it had a 5% success rate, and that the Supreme Court had ruled that it was religious. Then I started to get emotional and told her that it was all based on a Buchmanite group designed to get people to accept Christ as the Savior, and that the Higher Power stuff was nonsense, since sure, it starts out as, "the ocean," but ends up referring to God. And the "higher power" definitely CANNOT be yourself, since it has to be some outside force. As Henry Ford said of his cars, you can have any color you want so long as it's black. Well, you can have any Higher Power you want so long as it's God.

As former Catholics, my husband and I tend to get a bit touchy when religion is sold to us. It is very difficult to get away from, "Magical Thinking," and I've been working so hard to restructure my thoughts, to think more critically, to learn about logic, and to question things. And it took a lot for me to "talk back" to my therapist about this, and I still feel guilty, like I should just accept it as good advice. Such is the mark that being a good little Catholic girl leaves on person.

I feel so angry that the majority of people don't question AA at all.

 

[Cainkane1]

Youd be right. Its a religious group for the reasons you mentioned. How could it not be?

 

[Complexity]

AA is religious.

'Spiritual' is a woo word. It often is used as cover for religion. Even when there is no apparent religious aspects to 'spiritual' thought, there are always woo aspects.

I had a therapist that I really liked, but he asserted that I was spiritual even though I wasn't religious. I assured him that I was not.

 

[JihadJane]

"Woo" is a bit of a silly word, too.

 

[Complexity]

"Woo" is a bit of a silly word, too.

Nonsense.

'Woo' is a nearly perfect word.

Woo beliefs, people, and behavior are the problem.

 

[Mirrorglass]

But not as silly as 'wee-wee'.

 

[CynicalSkeptic]

To those who say it's not religious (and specifically Christian), read Chapter 4 of The Big Book, and explain.

I love how it says that it's God of your understanding, but it's also God (not "a" god) with a capital G and references to Him use the capital H.

 

[GrandMasterFox]

Ummm... The answer to the title is quite simple:

There is a notion of "freedom of religion" so therefore, nobody can force you to go to church. But if you don't call it "religion" then it's perfectly okay.

It's the same reason why they try to force "creationisim" as science when it's really religion.

In other words, it's another dishonest BS tactics used to brainwash the masses to follow the few individual who wish to control them.

 

[Rasmus]

Now I'm furious that MY new therapist is telling me that AA would be a good resource for my husband. "It's not religious, it's spiritual," and "Your higher power can be anything at all, the ocean, even yourself."

Your new therapist is an incompetent idiot. Get a new therapist. Problem solved.

...

And you are right. And if he doesn't see that, your new therapist is an idiot. (Which in my eyes is enough to label him incompetent as well. How can anyone who's not capable of following two or three steps of logic be competent to analyse a human mind?

As former Catholics, my husband and I tend to get a bit touchy when religion is sold to us. It is very difficult to get away from, "Magical Thinking," and I've been working so hard to restructure my thoughts, to think more critically, to learn about logic, and to question things. And it took a lot for me to "talk back" to my therapist about this, and I still feel guilty, like I should just accept it as good advice. Such is the mark that being a good little Catholic girl leaves on person.

I would want a therapist who I cam trust at least a little further than I can spit. Hard to find, I'm sure but it should be worth the effort. (How much is a therapist worth who makes you feel guilty, actively or not; consciously or not.)

I feel so angry that the majority of people don't question AA at all.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

While the original 12 step program was a religious program, there are individual AA groups who don't include religion in their version. Find another group.

AA is a useful tool for many people trying to maintain sobriety. Not everyone needs this kind of support. People are successful in their abstinence via different means and it isn't clear why one method works for some and another method works best for someone else.

The success of AA groups depend on the quality of the group, the quality of the leadership and whether the particular group one attends 'fits' with that individual. I used to work in the substance abuse field and I've seen many different AA groups in action. Some are not very supportive and people show up high, many attending because they had a DUI and the court has ordered them to go.

Other groups are very religiously oriented.

But there are also many AA groups which just leave out the 'turn your life over to a higher power' step. They mouth the words in the "give me the power" mantra but it isn't really part of the program. They support each other effectively, religion is just left up to the individual.

Someone really should revise the 12 steps and develop a non-religious program, but for some mysterious reason it hasn't happened yet.

 

[CynicalSkeptic]

Someone really should revise the 12 steps and develop a non-religious program, but for some mysterious reason it hasn't happened yet.

Those do exist, but they're hard to find. Several only exist behind bars (for those ordered to attend a 12-step program but have a hard time with the religious aspect).

 

[Uncle Otto]

Those do exist, but they're hard to find. Several only exist behind bars (for those ordered to attend a 12-step program but have a hard time with the religious aspect).

And this is a big reason AA continues to have such high visibility, despite it's dismal failure rate. Judges often will sentence people to this program because there is no alternative available to them than just sending the individual to jail for 30 days. And even when there is an alternative, the courts are unaware of it.

Someone mentioned that AA has only about a 5% success rate. I wonder how that compares to people who just quit on their own? As an aside though, I have a friend who went to AA and he's about as religious as a door knob. He put up with the "higher power" thing vaguely and it did work. But he himself admitted that it was a good group. He's still clean after a lot of years. He was one of the lucky few for whom it worked.

 

[ShowerComic]

For those interested in a non-religious alternative to AA -- Check out --
Rational Recovery, and Jack Trimpy. Also Secular Organizations for Sobriety.

SMART Recovery (which stands for Self-Managment and Recovery Training) is another option.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

And this is a big reason AA continues to have such high visibility, despite it's dismal failure rate. ....

All alcoholism treatment programs have a high failure rate, but most are equally effective when compared to each other. That includes comparing treatment to 'no treatment', but in this case, 'no treatment' quitting only works for a select group of people, just like AA only works for a select group of people. And we have no tests that predict which treatment is best for which individuals. People truly interested in recovery typically find the program that best fits their needs after trial and error.

AA groups are so varied, one also has a hard time in research determining whether the program or the group variables are reflected in the outcomes.

Judges sentence people to attend AA because there are so few alternatives.

Inpatient treatment is expensive, and not easy to accomplish if one has a job. That further restricts judges' choices.

 

[MG1962]

Someone mentioned that AA has only about a 5% success rate. I wonder how that compares to people who just quit on their own?

I know someone reasonably high up in AA and he suggested their success rate is closer to 13% I would suggest no other programs are doing significantly better. My AA contact said it often takes at least 3 tries before a person does manage to get and stay sober

I'm also a little suprised at the outrage over the religious side of the program, it was started by a religious group back in the 30's. On Wiki they show you the original 12 steps and what they use today. Only two of the steps have any real religious relevence anymore.

 

[MG1962]

Inpatient treatment is expensive, and not easy to accomplish if one has a job. That further restricts judges' choices.

A work mate recently went through a 30 day in house program. Although he has never given a specific amount, the way he talks it cost between 10 and 13k for the treatment

 

[Complexity]

I'm also a little suprised at the outrage over the religious side of the program, it was started by a religious group back in the 30's. On Wiki they show you the original 12 steps and what they use today. Only two of the steps have any real religious relevence anymore.

I don't think there is outrage at AA being religious.

I think some people, myself included, are pissed off that many advocates of AA state that AA is not religious when this it is.

 

[Dymanic]

Even when there is no apparent religious aspects to 'spiritual' thought, there are always woo aspects.

I've often had people tell me that they were "spiritual, but not religious" -- but beyond defining "spiritual" as "not religious", I've never gotten a coherent answer to the question, "what is spirituality?"

You seem to have this all rather carefully worked out. Would you care to share your definitions for these terms?

I had a therapist that I really liked, but he asserted that I was spiritual even though I wasn't religious. I assured him that I was not.

Jung (whom you no doubt regard as a prince of woos) once said: "Mental health is characterized by flexibility". Maybe your therapist was just trying to way to find a way to say that he saw in you a healthy mental flexibility -- of the sort, perhaps, that enables you to like people even though they demonstrate a propensity for using what you consider to be 'woo' words in a professional setting.

 

[Vermonter]

There are secular sobriety programs that your spouse can be referred to, I believe.

 

[marplots]

The higher power thing is an important emotional 'hook'. There are others, of course. I was quite moved to hear stories from other people who had 'been there'.

The problem with any particular hook is that it doesn't catch every species of fish. So far, there is no medical treatment for alcoholism that does it either. None of this is surprising -- it's what happens when you use a cookie cutter formulation.

Best is if he can find a 'home group' or one that doesn't hammer Jesus. I've seen shopping happen a lot. People shop for AA groups where they feel comfortable and connect with the other people there.

For me, it was hugely about age. Some groups were entirely old farts and others were mostly youngsters. I can put up with more old-fartery than young know-it-all-ness. It does help to have a selection which means a major/minor city or a long drive.

Just let him know there is enough variation in groups that he is likely to find somewhere he can get some benefits. That said, I haven't been in about eight years, so even the best of them gets old.

Oh, and I'm a hardcore atheist, if that matters.