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What Evidence Would Be Sufficient To Prove Reincarnation?

Illiadus, just to go over this again:

There are two problems with reincarnation, and they are the same two problems that we have with homeopathy, or the flat earth theory, or the healing power of crystals, or dowsing, or a whole range of other nonsense.

One, it's impossible. That is, it contradicts all known science, in such a way that if it were true, things that we know to be true would necessarily be false.

Two, it doesn't happen.

This combination makes evidence hard to come by. If reincarnation were real, the world would be completely different. Babies would be born speaking German and composing symphonies.

Reincarnationists need to show us these babies, and show that the mechanism for this is the perpetuation of the self. The problem they have is that the former don't exist (and are impossible), and the latter doesn't happen (and is impossible).

That's their problem. It is often difficult to establish the truth of counterfactuals.
 
This is the problem: While a few skeptics by their own admission can’t accept reincarnation regardless of what evidence is presented to them (see Impossible To Prove), most agree that some form of anomalous information access should be considered evidence. Great as that sounds, the quotes in the Anomalous Information section reveal that a reconciliation of the far ends of the spectrum is painfully remote.
That’s not a problem. It is a solution. Also, you are misrepresenting the quotes.

The quotes about “Impossible To Prove” are quotes about why reincarnation (or, more precisely, past-life memory) as “impossible”, not quotes about “Impossible To Prove”. These are two different things. Past-life is not possible within our understanding of how things work (and we have a very good understanding of how things work).

It should be obvious that “anomalous information access” would be the proof of past life memory? What else would you expect?

There is the old saying “exceptional claims require exception evidence”. If past-life memory were proven, it would require a radical change of our knowledge. Without any practical or logical mechanism, the possibility for past-life memory is relegated to the realm of what we generally refer to as “impossible” (which actually means very, very, very, etc, improbable).

In order for any evidence supporting past-life memory to become accepted, it must be more plausible than the “impossible” evidence that we currently have. If a three-year-old saying a 20-character code that ends up being a Swiss bank account number to some treasure, the plausibility must be measured.

All of our knowledge, everything that we know, trust, believe and have faith in, is measured in our brains on a scale. Nothing is absolutely true or false. We routinely scale things based on many factors. These factors may result in either true of false beliefs. If we really want to know the truth of something (as best as possible), we use two methods: the logic method and the scientific method.

The logical method allows us to make evaluations (scale of belief) without empirical evidence. In the case of past-life memory, a logical evaluation puts the belief very much in the false category, to the extent that it would be grouped with other beliefs categorized as “impossible”.

The scientific method is an empirical test, ideally where conditions are controlled so that the only possible results are a proof that a belief is either true or false. In many cases, these ideal conditions cannot be achieved. Therefore, the scale of belief is established based on the evidence available from tests based on how uncontrolled the conditions are (how many other plausible competing beliefs exist and their scale value) and in comparison to the scale of belief established by the logical method.

In order for a belief to become accepted, the “scale of belief” for the belief must overcome these. That is, the empirical evidence must be sufficient to outweigh the conclusions reached by the logical method. This means that if the logical method results in a very false conclusion, the empirical evidence must be very strong to over come this as the accepted belief.

The empirical evidence can only overcome a belief based on the logical method, and other evidence, by becoming unquestionable. The only method to make evidence unquestionable, is by using the scientific method to establish a test that decreases (or preferably, eliminates) the possibility of any other belief.

THEREFORE:

Using the logical method, past-life memory is false because it has no logical basis and would contradict current knowledge. So it is not unreasonable that some poster’s would characterize past-life memory as “impossible”.

Using the scientific method, past-life memory is false because it there is not sufficient evidence to overcome the conclusions derived from the logical method. It is actually much more than that. There is not the evidence that we would expect if reincarnation and past-life memory were true (which would be common cases of accurate and verifiable memories of a past life from most, or at least a decent percentage of, the 6 billion people alive on Earth)

Because past-life memory is false by logic and by our expected empirical experience, the evidence that would be required to overcome this belief would be categorized as “extraordinary”, or, as you put it, “painfully remote”.

Proof is possible, but it must be to the extent that it overcomes our current belief, which is well founded in false. Therefore, there must be proof that proves that our logical conclusions are false, that our expected experience if the belief were true are miscalculated, and that the evidence presented has no other more plausible explanation.

A single case would cause us to question the belief. Several cases might lead us to accept the belief as possibly true. Replication of the evidence on demand would result in us believing the belief, but with some uncertainty. We would only really accept the belief as true with overwhelming evidence or a provable, logical explanation that results in information that allows us to make accurate predictions.
 
PixyMisa, let me try to explain my purpose to you as clearly as possible:

There are many skeptics in the world, myself being one of them. We all demand different things as evidence for reincarnation, which, by the way, I do not believe in and am not promoting or researching. What I'm looking for is a precise and specific definition that will satisfy most skeptics if presented to them. The purpose is to then use that material to open a dialog with believers and make them see what their research is missing. If all I do is call their evidence unsubstantiated, unscientific, et c, rather than point out the specific errors, they'll feel that they can rightly ignore what I say.

This is one of the purposes of the JREF, to raise awareness everywhere about what constitutes pseudoscience, including among reincarnation researchers. My way of doing that is to present such researchers with criteria that they can trust would make their research acceptable to the skeptic community if they did what's asked of them.

Now, if you and I are right about past lives being bunk, there's nothing to worry about. If we're wrong, we want to know so, right? Win, win.

You, sir, I take it, are at one extreme end of the spectrum, which is perfectly alright. You will accept no evidence because whatever phenomenon is presented, to you it can never signify reincarnation. That's a fair position and I respect it, but I stand by my compilation of quotes. They show the diversity of views expressed in this thread.

Perhaps it was a mistake to leave out your listed items, but as anyone going back can see, you started a list of criteria and finished it by saying "naah" and I summed up your point of view as saying no criteria would be sufficient, which you've since then verified. If you've changed your mind, I'm listening, but I'm not going back to change my post, because that's how all the trouble started last time (see first few posts).

I hope that clears things up a bit?
 
PixyMisa, let me try to explain my purpose to you as clearly as possible:
I already understand it. The problem is, you are not reading what people are saying to you.

There are many skeptics in the world, myself being one of them. We all demand different things as evidence for reincarnation, which, by the way, I do not believe in and am not promoting or researching. What I'm looking for is a precise and specific definition that will satisfy most skeptics if presented to them.
Well, there's a problem right there. There is no precise definition for reincarnation to begin with, and it's not up to us to provide it.

The purpose is to then use that material to open a dialog with believers and make them see what their research is missing.
Won't work. All you'll get is excuses and the Retreat to Unfalsifiability.

If all I do is call their evidence unsubstantiated, unscientific, et c
All of which is true, of course.

rather than point out the specific errors
Don't let me stop you. Go right ahead and point out all their errors.

they'll feel that they can rightly ignore what I say.
They'll ignore what you say anyway - 99% of the time. It's still important to keep trying for that 1% though.

This is one of the purposes of the JREF, to raise awareness everywhere about what constitutes pseudoscience, including among reincarnation researchers. My way of doing that is to present such researchers with criteria that they can trust would make their research acceptable to the skeptic community if they did what's asked of them.
Sure.

Doesn't work.

Now, if you and I are right about past lives being bunk, there's nothing to worry about.
Except that's not really a hypothetical. We're right; they're wrong.

If we're wrong, we want to know so, right? Win, win.
Correct. If these people actually have evidence that would overturn all scientific knowledge, we want to know that.

They don't, however, and never will, and there is no point in complaining to us that our demands are too stringent.

You, sir, I take it, are at one extreme end of the spectrum
Nope.

which is perfectly alright. You will accept no evidence because whatever phenomenon is presented, to you it can never signify reincarnation.
WRONG.

Try reading what I actually write instead of inventing my position in your head.

Reincarnation is impossible. This is established scientific fact.

Reincarnation doesn't happen. We know this because if it did, the world would be dramatically different to how it is known to be.

Therefore the reincarnationists have exactly the same job cut out for them as the flat-earthers and homeopaths: To establish the truth of their claim, they have to present evidence so strong as to overturn every piece of scientific research on every subject for the last four hundred years.

They can't do this. This is NOT because I won't accept evidence. It's because THERE IS NO EVIDENCE TO BE HAD.

That's a fair position and I respect it
It's not a fair position, it's not worthy of respect, and IT IS NOT MY POSITION NOR THE POSITION OF ANYONE ELSE HERE.

but I stand by my compilation of quotes. They show the diversity of views expressed in this thread.
No, all they show is the false interpretation you have put on those quotes. I'm not the only one pointing this out to you. You are flagrantly misrepresenting my position, and the positions of others, despite repeated and very specific correction.

STOP IT.

Perhaps it was a mistake to leave out your listed items, but as anyone going back can see, you started a list of criteria and finished it by saying "naah"
No.

I said, these are the criteria. Full stop.

I then pointed out that these criteria can never be fulfilled, because reincarnation is impossible and does not happen (which, as I also keep pointing out, are two different statements).

I am not saying, I have never said, no-one here has ever said, that we would not accept the evidence if it were provided. We are saying that the evidence will never be provided.

and I summed up your point of view as saying no criteria would be sufficient, which you've since then verified.
WRONG.

I've corrected you on this several times already. I never said that to begin with. I most definitely never verified it.

If you've changed your mind, I'm listening, but I'm not going back to change my post, because that's how all the trouble started last time (see first few posts).
I haven't changed my mind; you have misrepresented my position from the start.

I hope that clears things up a bit?
Yes. You're wrong.
 
PixyMisa, let me try to explain my purpose to you as clearly as possible:

There are many skeptics in the world, myself being one of them. We all demand different things as evidence for reincarnation, which, by the way, I do not believe in and am not promoting or researching. What I'm looking for is a precise and specific definition that will satisfy most skeptics if presented to them. The purpose is to then use that material to open a dialog with believers and make them see what their research is missing. If all I do is call their evidence unsubstantiated, unscientific, et c, rather than point out the specific errors, they'll feel that they can rightly ignore what I say.

To be able to do that we need a clear definition of what constitutes reincarnation, as pointed out before. Without a clear definition to work with, there can be no "precise and specific definition that will satisfy most skeptics".

This is one of the purposes of the JREF, to raise awareness everywhere about what constitutes pseudoscience, including among reincarnation researchers. My way of doing that is to present such researchers with criteria that they can trust would make their research acceptable to the skeptic community if they did what's asked of them.

Why would you want to help them? There's absolutely no reason to believe there's any kind of afterlife, soul or the likes. The idea has been around for thousands of years.

Research into useless crap is a waste of time. No self-respecting scientist would begin such a "research", unless there's sufficient reason to re-open the case. There is none.

Now, if you and I are right about past lives being bunk, there's nothing to worry about. If we're wrong, we want to know so, right? Win, win.

See? These are the statements that make me believe you're not convinced that there's absolutely no merit to the idea. None whatsoever.

You, sir, I take it, are at one extreme end of the spectrum, which is perfectly alright. You will accept no evidence because whatever phenomenon is presented, to you it can never signify reincarnation. That's a fair position and I respect it, but I stand by my compilation of quotes. They show the diversity of views expressed in this thread.

That's not his position, but your strawman. I don't recall him saying that he won't accept any evidence. His position is that of the majority of skeptics: there is absolutely no supporting evidence, empirical or theoretic, from any branch of science that would justify wasting a single brain cycle on the idea of reincarnation.

Even though I know I'm threading close to the no true scottsman fallacy, I have to say that skepticism is the anathema of the closed-mindedness you're suggesting.

Perhaps it was a mistake to leave out your listed items, but as anyone going back can see, you started a list of criteria and finished it by saying "naah" and I summed up your point of view as saying no criteria would be sufficient, which you've since then verified. If you've changed your mind, I'm listening, but I'm not going back to change my post, because that's how all the trouble started last time (see first few posts).

I assume you're now talking to me...

Yes, I started the list. After the first few lines, I added the ellipses to show that the list could go on. In reference to the difficulties (and failures) for providing evidence for even the first few points, I added jokingly "nah, there's just no way", and a smiley, to emphasize this. I think it was fairly obvious, but here I am, explaining myself...
 
I agree with Iaca's statement that there can be no "precise and specific definition that will satisfy most skeptics" without a clear definition of reincarnation.

Does anyone have a suggestion on how to resolve that issue or is that impossible?
 
I agree with Iaca's statement that there can be no "precise and specific definition that will satisfy most skeptics" without a clear definition of reincarnation.

Does anyone have a suggestion on how to resolve that issue or is that impossible?
It's impossible. Again, this is not me defining anything as impossible or refusing to accept anyone else's definition, it's just history.

If they defined it, you could show that it didn't happen. Then they would immediately and simultaneously (a) redefine it, (b) provide excuses, and (c) blame it all on you.

Most believers understand this at some instinctual level, and are very reluctant to nail anything down. The only time you find this not to be the case is in societies where particular beliefs are never (or almost never) subjected to criticism, such as India (for certain beliefs) or San Francisco (for others).
 
Can't you people read? Why do you come into this thread and throw out general statements about reincarnation when it's not a thread about whether reincarnation is real or not? Who is it for?
Well, where are we? Post 73? I for one am finding your posts more and more confusing....
 
Hi, everybody!

It’s my understanding, now, that in order for the discussion to progress it needs to focus on the suggested necessity of defining reincarnation rather than what would prove it, so if you have any fresh takes on that, please post them.

Anyone joining us today who are interested in a brief summary of yesterday’s answers to the question posed by the thread will find such a summary below:

‘What evidence would be sufficient to prove reincarnation?’


IT’S NOT WORTH PROVING:

“What questions would reincarnation answer? None that I can think of that aren't silly to begin with.”


IT CAN’T BE PROVEN:

“The first thing you need to consider is that reincarnation is impossible. That sets the bar for evidence rather high.”

“It's not a belief. It's established fact. Reincarnation is impossible.”

“[Lists various criteria] Nah, there's just no way...”

“People who believe in reincarnation believe in something that is not true. They will never find solid evidence to support their belief because their belief is not true. We can define what would be acceptible evidence. We have done that. They will never find it. That's not our fault.”

“The whole idea of spirits is a dead paradigm, better explained by consciousness arising out of brains.”


FIRST WE MUST PROVE THERE’S A ‘SOUL’:

“The first thing that you need is evidence for the existence of a soul.”

“Before we can study it, it would have to be proven at the most basic premise: that a human conciousness can be transfered, perhaps many years later, from one body to another. That is a tall order.”

“We really do need a hint of some sort of mechanism by which this could have happen. Unfortunately nothing we know about the world gives us a sniff that such a thing could exist but rather deny such a thing.”


ANOMALOUS INFORMATION CAN PROVE IT:

“Reincarnation can be accepted as a phenomenon if it can predict events with more accuracy than the accepted theories [which] predict that a human will not display accurate information if he has never acquired that information - in this life. If this prediction can be shown to be false, then we can talk about reincarnation.”

“Possession of information which could not have been learned in this lifetime, yet can be verified as accurate (which of course makes it tricky to find, as one condition usually precludes the other).”

“You'd need a huge number of cases where the evidence is completely documented and untainted and reincarnation is the simplest explanation. So the physical similarities stuff is a complete non-starter. Some people look like other people. It happens. Get over it. That leaves memories. You have to establish that these memories are accurate, that the reporting of the memories is accurate, and that there is no plausible mechanism for the subject to have acquired the information. Telling us where the money (or the body) is buried, for example. And even that needs to be weight statistically, because sometimes that will happen.”

“Verifiably displaying knowledge of the past life one could not have acquired via mundane means.”

“People coming up with information that tells us things about the world that we don't already know. The research would also be carried out in a much more rigorous and honest manner than anything I have seen so far.”

“Good evidence would have to be repeated and extraordinary. People being able to help archaeologists with specific information that led to or was backed by physical evidence like artifacts or settlements would be nice. If there was such promise you might then consider giving terminally ill patients information and instructions about how to confirm their rebirth should it occur.”

“One would need to have a very very early kid already speaking long before kid normally speak, when it is physically possible (is that possible from birth or do the throat / tongue and so on ened to develop past a certain stage ?). Or heck even writing long long before kids normally do. Making compelte sentence with for example cubes with the alphabet on it at a few day or week.”

“What would i accept as proof of reincarnation? Well a 4 day old child speaking would be a pretty good indication they had memories of a previous life. And while we are at it, why is that never the case? Why can they seem to remember the details of a plane they were in , but such a simple skill as speaking only comes about when the child has learned to speak? Seriously, if people are being reincarnated the evidence would be obvious. Children within weeks of birth showing such things as the ability to speak, the ability to put together electronics ( if they were someone who could do this. ) or the ability to paint at or above an adult level. Why is it that the proof of reincarnation only comes when it would be possible to teach a kid knowledge, if there is knowledge being passed, it should be obvious from hour one of the kid being born. To boil it all down, my statement on reincarnation is the following " proof for me of reincarnation would be time based. If a child were to show adult level aptitude in within a day or two of being born this would be very solid evidence for reincarnation. Unfortunately after the child is at a reasonable age to process thoughts and communicate, the child is open to manipulation thereby tainting the data. It seems very suspect to me that only when a child already would be able to process data, and receive instruction do signs of reincarnation show."

“A three-year old, say, who could do taxes and calculus, and talk about politics and pop culture across the decades with the experience of somebody who'd truly been there.”

“A hynotized three-year old [that] could have an extended conversation, and answer questions from a variety of people about a wide variety of topics. It can't be a rehearsed speech or a conversation limited to a few talking points which the child could have been forced to memorize.”

“A three-year old in a sweet little lispy voice providing the Swiss bank account number in which we find the trillion dollars he stole in his previous life time.”

“Babies being born with the full knowledge and memories of a deceased adult. They come out of the womb talking and walking and able to explain who they were and how they died, with all the detail you would expect from an adult.”

“If we had newborns popping out speaking German and insisting on finishing their symphonies - or French and seeking a larger margin for their theorems - then that would be fairly convincing, yes.”

“You could hypothetically set up a blinded experiment, but it would take a fearfully long time. You would need a large number of volunteers who agreed that, when they were dying, they would make a deathbed random selection (pick five Zener cards in random order, maybe) show nobody, memorize it and seal it in an envelope. If you had witnesses to attest that they told nobody what they chose, then you have verifiable information which nobody but the dead person ever knew. It would be a preposterous experiment, of course. Expecting a dying person to memorise some cards is unlikely enough without then expecting witnesses to watch over them until they died. Then you'd have to decide who to test to see if they were the reincarnation of that person and you'd have to repeat it a huge number of times to demonstrate a greater than guesswork effect. After all, it's not remotely usual for people to remember where grandma hid the share certificates etc, so you are chasing after an infinitessimal effect if it even existed at all.”


MORAL EVOLUTION WOULD PROVE IT:

“People actually getting better. Assuming that the point of reincarnation is to learn life's lessons shouldn't we see some who have done this?”


Thank you for participating in this debate.
Stay skeptical!
 
Hi, everybody!

It’s my understanding, now, that in order for the discussion to progress it needs to focus on the suggested necessity of defining reincarnation rather than what would prove it, so if you have any fresh takes on that, please post them.

Anyone joining us today who are interested in a brief summary of yesterday’s answers to the question posed by the thread will find such a summary below:

‘What evidence would be sufficient to prove reincarnation?’


IT’S NOT WORTH PROVING:

“What questions would reincarnation answer? None that I can think of that aren't silly to begin with.”


IT CAN’T BE PROVEN:
WRONG.

“The first thing you need to consider is that reincarnation is impossible. That sets the bar for evidence rather high.”
The bar for evidence is high. So what? Not my problem. Simply provide evidence sufficient to overturn all scientific knowledge and replace it with the Theory of Reincarnation.

They can't do it not because we've demanding impossible standards of evidence, but because they have no evidence at all, and that is because reincarnation doesn't happen.

“It's not a belief. It's established fact. Reincarnation is impossible.”
This is perfectly true. Provide evidence so strong that you overturn all of physics and neuroscience (and effectively, all of chemistry and biology and all other sciences as well) and you'll have proved your case.

You can't do that, because reincarnation doesn't happen. It's not a question of "it can't be proven". It's that this is the evidence required, and we know perfectly well that no such evidence exists.


[Lists various criteria] Nah, there's just no way...”
Already addressed by laca, who wrote that bit.

“People who believe in reincarnation believe in something that is not true. They will never find solid evidence to support their belief because their belief is not true. We can define what would be acceptible evidence. We have done that. They will never find it. That's not our fault.”
All perfectly true, and you still don't understand it. I cannot explain it to you any better.

“The whole idea of spirits is a dead paradigm, better explained by consciousness arising out of brains.”
Indeed. This is the single most robust scientific principle we have, better supported than relativity or quantum mechanics - both tested in exquisite detail - better supported than plate tectonics or evolution - both confirmed by literal, and I do mean literal, mountains of evidence - better supported even than the germ theory of disease or the atomic theory of matter, and dammit we can see germs and atoms.

And it flatly contradicts the fundamental precepts of reincarnation. So reincarnation fails, UNLESS they can provide evidence so strong that it can overturn an experiment that has been running longer than recorded history.

Thank you for participating in this debate.
Stay skeptical!
Learn to read.
 
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Hi, everybody!

It’s my understanding, now, that in order for the discussion to progress it needs to focus on the suggested necessity of defining reincarnation rather than what would prove it, so if you have any fresh takes on that, please post them.

Then you're talking to the wrong people.

The person claiming that reincarnation is true needs to define the claim.

Otherwise, it comes down to silliness like this:

I define reincarnation as one person carrying on the identical genetic material of another who was born before them.

If I can show evidence that a person has at least half the genetic material of a person who was born before them, that proves they're the reincarnation of that other person and that reincarnation is real.

Are you with me, skeptics? Think it can be done? Willing to buy into that one?

Here we go: A genetic test of a person, and a genetic test of one of that person's parents. Son of a gun. Reincarnation has been proven.

It's silly but it's a legitimate "proof" of reincarnation, because it defines reincarnation both as something real and something testable. But it's pointless because that's not how people who believe in reincarnation define reincarnation.

Only those who are proposing a hypothesis can decide what hypothesis they want to propose.

They need to state: What is the marker that carries over from a previous life to a current life and that is present in everyone who's been reincarnated? How can one identify the two people involved in a reincarnation and how can one locate that marker in both of them?

Then one can start to discuss tests.
 
My question is:
"What evidence would be sufficient to prove reincarnation?"

I would first need for you to define what you mean by reincarnation before I can answer your question. What is it that allegedly survives to be reborn, a soul? So the first step would be to prove that this "soul" exists. And I don't know what tests could determine that without first defining the soul.
 
Illiadus, please ignore the "you're wrong" insults that dominate this forum (which is why i rarely participate).

To answer your question, i'd have to go with the anomolous info group for a start. Im not familiar with the case, but for example if the person who showed the archaeologist the undiscovered info had been accompanied the whole time by a team of independent skeptics who closely scrutinized the process from start to finish, that would be a small start. There would have to be a bunch of other cases to build on that. I dont think the idea that "this doesnt necessarily prove reincarnation--could be mediumship or remote viewing etc etc" is valid since obvioulsy the person giving the info is not claiming any of those alternative theories. Science is not about 100% completely conclusive evidence because that is the one thing that is not possible! Its about an accumulation of convincing evidence that become accepted.

" I am not saying, I have never said, no-one here has ever said, that we would not accept the evidence if it were provided. We are saying that the evidence will never be provided."

This is not skepticism, it's close-mindedness, pure and simple. Never say Never if you are a true skeptic. I would bet every last penny that reincarnation does not happen, but would not bet my eternal soul (if i had one ;))
 
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Illiadus, since it is you who brought this to the table, it is you who has to provide a definition of what reincarnation is. We might as well be discussing widdlydumps, and how they cannot be falsified.

The point has been made several, well, numerous times, that without a clear definition that is acceptable to all (can you be reincarnated as a cockroach?) then everyone is speaking in generalities, from their personal idea as to what reincarnation really is.

And now you are asking people here to define something that you brought up in the first place. Surely you must have at least a reasonably clear idea in your mind as to what YOU think reincarnation is, but you have not ever bothered to explicitly define it yourself.

So can we at least clear that bit up? What, in your mind, is reincarnation? That would be a good starting point.

Norm
 
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