DNA Code...Proof of a Divine Creator?

OK, I see from reading your subsequent posts, GIBHOR, that you've chosen some poor sources of actual scientific information. You are getting stuff second hand from people trying to prove their Adam and Eve story is supported by real tangible evidence.

I suggest you go with the 'Bible as metaphor' and leave the science to the scientists.
 
I also wonder how many of those primitive chemical reactions got eaten by other, more efficient chemical reactions, resulting in the apparent universality of DNA we see today. How many different ways of representing life are we missing in modern biology simply because those alternatives to DNA just happened to taste like bacon?
This paragraph from the link in the abiogenesis thread, The Origin of Life - A case is made for the descent of electrons suggests an explanation:
…The important pattern to appreciate is that the primordial cycle provides the stability and starting materials that make an age of selection possible. We think it was at the transition to this stage that geochemistry began to take on the features of replication and selection recognized by Darwin as distinctive of life. After such an age has begun, it can maintain the complexity and diversity needed to explore for refinements—in efficiency, in adaptation to the geological environment or in specialized division of labor within communal systems. The same pattern repeated itself when the environment was changed by the accumulation of a destructive toxin—oxygen—that was produced by primordial organisms as a waste product. As they adapted, organisms did not abandon the reductive citric acid cycle, which we believe was the unique foundation for biosynthesis. Instead they acquired the ability to run the cycle in reverse, extracting energy from the breakdown of molecules similar to those the cycle formerly produced.
The article points out that chemical reactions are predictable and often go in one direction under certain conditions. Some researchers have hypothesized that in the pre-oxygen atmosphere, predictable chemical reaction directions and the resulting/initiating energy components of the reactions selected certain chemicals and molecule replication.
 
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The reason that you can say for certain that over a billion years hydrogen and oxygen will combine to form water is that it is entirely possible to observe them doing so over and over again in a relatively short period of time. Again, we have a sample size of 1 with life's formation. Claiming a probability (whether quantitative or qualitative) based on that single data point is as wrongheaded for a naturalist as it is for a creationist, and your personal confidence in life's inevitability is not a compelling argument.

Well sorry Jason, I understand where you are headed here but the probability for any event that has occurred regardless of sample size is 1.

The possibility of life arising given different variable is another figure, but it is 1 for life having arisen here.

And actually the reactions that are likely in the chain of life in abiogenesis are visible all the time and happen frequently.

We can observe them doing so over and over again in a relatively short period of time. Any likely link in the chain of an abiogenesis event is able to be observed whenever you want.
 
I figured you might be unable to understand the concept because it requires some thinking. The example shows that as Hydrogen and Oxygen will inevitably meet to form water, the necessary chemicals for life will inevitably meet and form life (perhaps many times). Just for the hell of it, why don't you list the relative abundance of chemical elements present in the universe, the atmosphere and the Earth and compare them to the ones necessary for life as we know it then please tell me how it wasn't inevitable and do so without using an appeal to emotion or uncommon sense.

Indeed, I apparently am incapable of thought. Thank you for pointing that out. I have not yet made an appeal to emotion (please show me the quotation where you believe I've done so if you disagree) or uncommon sense (again, quotation please.) I've simply stated that we don't know enough about abiogenesis to assign a solid probability to life arising in a given location.

Your argument is essentially that in any environment where we find a sizeable amount of liquid water that has existed for a reasonably long period of time (say a few billion years) and is not exposed to some strong inhibiting factor (massive radiation as an example) we WILL find life. It's not that we might find life, or that we will usually find life, it's that there is a 100% chance of it. Your own comment is that life is inevitable and that it would be a miracle had it not formed. I'm not taking that out of context in any way. The fact that life is likely to have come to exist because of relatively common reactions does not mean that it must do so.

Well sorry Jason, I understand where you are headed here but the probability for any event that has occurred regardless of sample size is 1.

The possibility of life arising given different variable is another figure, but it is 1 for life having arisen here.

Apologies if I gave the impression I was talking about the probability of life arising on Earth. I guess there is a verb tense that is poorly chosen in one of my posts, but other than that I'm not sure where you would have gotten this idea. In any case we weren't talking about that. Of course that probability is one, because, as you say, it's already happened. What I said is that we can't use a single data point to attempt to assign a probability to life's occurrence elsewhere (or on an alternate Earth or whatever.) That probability may be high or low or who knows what, we just don't know.

Once again, I believe that life is likely a relatively common phenomenon (for reasons that have been posted multiple times now,) but the fact that it likely came to be from a series of steps that were not wildly improbable does not mean that it's inevitable (P = 1 or very nearly so) and that's what my comments were directed toward. I refuse to accept wrongheaded certainty from an atheist just as I do a from a creationist.

I'm honestly baffled why my original comment didn't receive a brief "You're right, I was exaggerating the likelihood for effect" or no response at all.
 
Your argument is essentially that in any environment where we find a sizeable amount of liquid water that has existed for a reasonably long period of time (say a few billion years) and is not exposed to some strong inhibiting factor (massive radiation as an example) we WILL find life. ...
I'm honestly baffled why my original comment didn't receive a brief "You're right, I was exaggerating the likelihood for effect" or no response at all.

This is exactly why your comment wasn't ignored and never would have been. You misrepresented my argument totally and now you have the sheer idiocy to conflate my 'example' with my saying life was an inevitable product of a series of chemical reactions. Until you learn to at least read what was said without misrepresenting it, don't expect a reasonable response from me.
 
How exactly do you get from this:


to this:



Einstein:
sensory experiences vs. concepts and propositions

You:
living systems vs. nonliving systems

Einstein is absolutely not talking about the difference between living and noliving systems, but the difference between sense experience and concepts and propositions. There really are no reasonably accepted values for his words to get them to mean what you attribute to them.

The reason only creationist websites mention the Einstein Gulf, is because they invented the concept out of thin air.


I've started working on a reply to your post, Cavemonster, but I haven't had time to finish it.
I should be able to post it...in the next day or two. :)
 
I've started working on a reply to your post, Cavemonster, but I haven't had time to finish it.
I should be able to post it...in the next day or two. :)


If you need significantly more words to explain what Einstein must have meant than Einstein himself used to clearly explain exactly what he actually meant, then you are probably doing it wrong.
 
This is exactly why your comment wasn't ignored and never would have been. You misrepresented my argument totally and now you have the sheer idiocy to conflate my 'example' with my saying life was an inevitable product of a series of chemical reactions. Until you learn to at least read what was said without misrepresenting it, don't expect a reasonable response from me.

You do realize that what you post persists in time, right?

To put it simply, life was the product of an inevitable series of chemical reactions that themselves were inevitable.

inevitable - impossible to avoid or prevent, sure to happen

I objected to the certainty with which you discussed life coming to exist.

Let's just look at one simple non-organic molecule as an example. Water has the chemical formula H2O. When two atoms of Hydrogen and one atom of oxygen meet, they may or may not form water but over 1 billion years it is inevitable they do (in the same geometric configuration). It would be 'miraculous' had they never met to form water just as it would be 'miraculous' had life never formed.

Your response, in which if you had suggested at this point you meant only that life on Earth had P = 1 we'd have been done. That must not have been your argument, and you make it clear that you're extending this idea to other likely regions (Earthlike environments, to be as hospitable as possible to you.)

miraculous - occurring via an event that appears inexplicable by the laws of nature and so is held to be supernatural in origin

Again, reinforcing the certainty in another way. I object in the exact same way as you haven't addressed what I wrote at all.

I figured you might be unable to understand the concept because it requires some thinking. The example shows that as Hydrogen and Oxygen will inevitably meet to form water, the necessary chemicals for life will inevitably meet and form life (perhaps many times). Just for the hell of it, why don't you list the relative abundance of chemical elements present in the universe, the atmosphere and the Earth and compare them to the ones necessary for life as we know it then please tell me how it wasn't inevitable and do so without using an appeal to emotion or uncommon sense.

Insults and repetition.

There was no misrepresentation of what you said. My objection was perfectly reasonable. I'm also still waiting on the quotations showing that I was appealing to emotion and using uncommon sense.

My argument: Certainty about events with unknown probabilities is no better from an atheist than a creationist.

We don't entirely understand how life came to be on Earth at this point, though we have a plausible mechanism for it. We also only have one case of life's existence to use as an example at this point, so it may or may not have occurred due to unlikely events (or it may have been delayed in its occurrence due to the lack of likely events occurring.) In other words, life may have started much earlier or later than it would have on a similar planet. Because of this uncertainty, saying that life is inevitable is wrongheaded, even though I personally believe that it is likely a relatively common phenomenon in the universe.
 
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Noreligion may be viewing past events from a fatalist point of view. Basically, for any past event that has occurred, there was always a 100% chance that it would occur, even if it is an event that appears unlikely, such as a given individual winning the lottery. In other words, if John Smith won the lottery, what are the odds that he won the lottery? It is an absolute certainty.
 
when some god shows up with the source code to prove its his invention, i am willing to believe him i guess.
 
when some god shows up with the source code to prove its his invention, i am willing to believe him i guess.

He'll need to have the copyrights as well. How do you know he didn't steal it from some other god?
 
Noreligion may be viewing past events from a fatalist point of view. Basically, for any past event that has occurred, there was always a 100% chance that it would occur, even if it is an event that appears unlikely, such as a given individual winning the lottery. In other words, if John Smith won the lottery, what are the odds that he won the lottery? It is an absolute certainty.

Right, but that's not how he responded. As I wrote, if his response to my first post had been that he meant that life arising on Earth was a certainty, I would simply have said "my bad" and been done with it. Instead he wrote about the probability of water forming from oxygen and hydrogen and later linked that to organic molecules forming from common elements (and the processes that likely followed involving said molecules.) It implied that he was talking about life arising in general in friendly environments. Besides, you wouldn't say that life not coming to be would be miraculous if you were referring to something that had already happened.
 
Let's just look at one simple non-organic molecule as an example. Water has the chemical formula H2O. When two atoms of Hydrogen and one atom of oxygen meet, they may or may not form water but over 1 billion years it is inevitable they do (in the same geometric configuration).
Hydrogen formed after the Big Bang, and before the formation of stars. Oxygen was manufactured subsequently in the fusion factories of stars.

It may be unlikely that two atoms of hydrogen will ever meet one atom of oxygen, because the common form of both elements is a 2-atom molecule.

In science class, we used electrolysis to separate water into hydrogen and oxygen. Simply exposing the hydrogen to the oxygen in the air did not produce water. If I mix a billion molecules of hydrogen and a billion molecules of oxygen in a stoppered flask, how many molecules of water will the flask contain at the end of one year?

How do you propose that it is "inevitable" that water forms, simply by piling on years? It often seems to me that "billions of years" is the lazy skeptic's version of Goddidit, frequently invoked to explain anything which has demonstrably happened for which the person invoking it lacks a satisfactory explanation.
 
[...]as Hydrogen and Oxygen will inevitably meet to form water, the necessary chemicals for life will inevitably meet and form life (perhaps many times). Just for the hell of it, why don't you list the relative abundance of chemical elements present in the universe, the atmosphere and the Earth and compare them to the ones necessary for life as we know it then please tell me how it wasn't inevitable and do so without using an appeal to emotion or uncommon sense.
Your dog died last week. Its lifeless body is chock full of "the necessary chemicals for life" -- amino acids, triglycerides, DNA, RNA, ATP, glucose, water, the works. Why doesn't your dog jump and run around? It has membrane-enclosed cells with nuclei and mitochondria by the billions, but not one of those necessary structures packed with all the necessary chemicals is at this moment alive, nor will "billions of years" spark them into life.

Inevitable? Pffft. Life is a rare gift, unique to our planet as far as we know today. I don't understand how it started. You don't understand how it started. Unless she's being perversely coy, no one on earth understands how it started. Lots of very smart people are working on an explanation, but we don't have one yet.

For you to claim that something neither you nor anyone else understands is "inevitable" seems to me to be an unsupportable leap of faith.
 
Hydrogen formed after the Big Bang, and before the formation of stars. Oxygen was manufactured subsequently in the fusion factories of stars.

It may be unlikely that two atoms of hydrogen will ever meet one atom of oxygen, because the common form of both elements is a 2-atom molecule.

In science class, we used electrolysis to separate water into hydrogen and oxygen. Simply exposing the hydrogen to the oxygen in the air did not produce water. If I mix a billion molecules of hydrogen and a billion molecules of oxygen in a stoppered flask, how many molecules of water will the flask contain at the end of one year?

How do you propose that it is "inevitable" that water forms, simply by piling on years? It often seems to me that "billions of years" is the lazy skeptic's version of Goddidit, frequently invoked to explain anything which has demonstrably happened for which the person invoking it lacks a satisfactory explanation.

Do you care to list the relative abundance of the top few elements in the universe then explain how Hydrogen and Oxygen might not ever meet. I was not talking about a specific atom, maybe you are?
 

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