OOS Collapse Propagation Model

[beachnut]

I'd love to know your point. Are you saying the perps unbolted the connections on two different levels (two towers) just for ****'s and giggles?

Delusions (illusions in the case of flying high performance jets) are hard to break, they need to take a peak at the big blue marble when they are under the curtain. We used a curtain to simulate flying in the clouds on instruments; these guys are on purpose using a curtain (ignorance) to simulate flying in the weather but they are not using their instruments.

They have failed for 8 years and the papers are coming out trying to be so engineering like but then they include delusions of CD in their conclusion to support their delusion of CD. UBL an engineer, a better engineer than all 911 truth can put up to bat.

Now we have the "unknown dolts stealing bolts" scenario. A produce of a group which prides itself for not having evidence and using delusional logic to connect their lack of evidence idiotic conclusion.

What would the chief structural engineer for the WTC say? "Nonsense"

Is there anyone out there who thinks Major Tom's paper is good for anything to help his moronic CD ideas on 911?

Is there anyone out there who finds it ironic the steel photos Major Tom prides himself on posting prove his conclusions are fantasies?

Do these guys have any engineering backgrounds to add more irony to their efforts?

Happy fourth! Thank goodness for wifi... you can taste wine in the square and read delusions from Major Tom and femr2, celebrate the 4th out doors and read great posts from 911 truth; the only movement which tries harder to fail, and they do it well. When will the paper be published. Have a great end of the weekend fellow revolutionaries.

 

[Major_Tom]

There are a few points, some of which will become apparent later.

1) You do not know how the core completely failed within 1 degree of tilt.

2) The NIST is not even aware that the whole core failed within 1 degree of tilt. They somehow came up with 8 degrees of tilt over which all columns failed.

3) Nobody seems aware that the whole core failed within 1 degree of tilt along along a seam where all columns have bolted connections.


This is only a start but it is enough to show how little is actually known about the actual initial column failure sequence by both the NIST and yourselves.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

It is very important to map the earliest movement of WTC1 carefully. You may find that the collective failure of the south perimeter which "pulls down" the core is not what initiated collapse.

Up until now, the mappings of the earliest movements of WTC1 have been pretty crappy as you can see.

 

[Toke]

Wait a minute, the columns were 3 stories high, how can they all have bolted connections on the same floor?
Should it not be every 1/3 floor?

 

[carlitos]

Does anyone disagree that all 47 core columns had connections at the same elevations?

yes?

Wait a minute, the columns were 3 stories high, how can they all have bolted connections on the same floor?
Should it not be every 1/3 floor?

 

[Myriad]

Of course the core failed within one degree of tilt. It has to have failed for that one degree of tilt to have occurred. One degree of tilt is not a small amount.

One degree of tilt, hinged at a perimeter wall, means that some sufficient combination of:

(1) upper sections of core columns moved having already displaced downward

and/or

(2) the connections between floor trusses and the core in the upper block having collectively failed sufficiently for the floors to displace downward relative to the core columns they had previously been attached to

...must have already occurred.

If (1) alone occurred, then the upper part of every core column must have already descended by between 1 foot (for the columns closest to the hinge) and 2 feet. This means substantial buckling of those columns.

If (2) alone occurred, then the floor connections to the core must have broken or distorted sufficiently to allow multiple floors to descend between 1 foot and 2 feet relative to the core. This means a large if not total reduction in the ability of the core to support those floors.

In neither case does the position of the bolted connections between column segments make much difference. Nor does the amount of additional tilt that occurred after that.

Under which of these scenarios, or what combination of the two scenarios, would you expect the core to retain any significant ability to continue to support the upper block floors?

Loss of ability to support the loads that existed = failure.

Respectfully,
Myriad

 

[femr2]

Wait a minute, the columns were 3 stories high, how can they all have bolted connections on the same floor?
Should it not be every 1/3 floor?

The core columns were not staggered.

Perimeter panels, yes. Core columns, no.

Additionally, the details posted earlier by MT very strongly suggest that at floor 98, in addition to the normal in-step arrangement, the core column connections were bolted.

Core columns were in three floor heights, so connections only occur every three floors.

Clear ?

 

[beachnut]

The core columns were not staggered.

Perimeter panels, yes. Core columns, no.

...
Clear ?

Really? Have you dropped your CD delusions yet? Has Major Tom got an engineering degree yet? Do you? When will Major Tom's findings be published so you can break the news, the CD delusion has failed?

 

[Major_Tom]

Here is a picture of a typical bolted splice connection along a typical H beam.

In this case the plates are welded to the lower column section, For WTC1 they were bolted.

If a demo team had access to such connections it would be rather dumb of them not to exploit them.

Why nuke the building or attack it with space beams if you can just knock the top H beam sections off the bottom ones in the collapse initiation region?

Why cut steel when you don't have to?

How many simple ways can you think of to knock the top column section off the bottom one with minimal force? Why not just remove a few bolts with a wrench? Why not all of them?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

My point is that it doesn't require a genius to figure out how to initiate the WTC1 collapse. No nukes or space beams required.

All core column bolted connections in the collapse initiation zone are on floors 89, 92, 95, 98, 101, 104 about 3 feet above the flooring. These are the natural targets so it is important to carefully look for unusual activity on these floors during the 30 minutes leading up to collapse.

 

[carlitos]

H

If a demo team had access to such connections it would be rather dumb of them not to exploit them.

I thought you were trying to do engineering. Now you are talking about a demolition team? Who was this? What evidence do you have of a demolition team accessing parts of the WTC?

 

[DGM]

Here is a picture of a typical bolted splice connection along a typical H beam.

[qimg]http://www.sharpprintinginc.com/911/images/photoalbum/13/bolted_splice.jpg[/qimg]

In this case the plates are welded to the lower column section, For WTC1 they were bolted.

If a demo team had access to such connections it would be rather dumb of them not to exploit them.

Why nuke the building or attack it with space beams if you can just knock the top H beam sections off the bottom ones in the collapse initiation region?

Why cut steel when you don't have to?

How many simple ways can you think of to knock the top column section off the bottom one with minimal force? Why not just remove a few bolts with a wrench? Why not all of them?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

My point is that it doesn't require a genius to figure out how to initiate the WTC1 collapse. No nukes or space beams required.

All core column bolted connections in the collapse initiation zone are on floors 89, 92, 95, 98, 101, 104 about 3 feet above the flooring. These are the natural targets so it is important to carefully look for unusual activity on these floors during the 30 minutes leading up to collapse.

Have you lost it?

Why not just let the planes and the fires (plus gravity) do it?

Maybe you should start with proving the "official" explanation can't work before coming up with ways you think it could be done.

 

[ElMondoHummus]

All core column bolted connections in the collapse initiation zone are on floors 89, 92, 95, 98, 101, 104 about 3 feet above the flooring. These are the natural targets so it is important to carefully look for unusual activity on these floors during the 30 minutes leading up to collapse.

Or you can look at NCSTAR 1-3C and see for yourself the damage modes the columns and their connection points suffered. You can see the images of the various elements, such as Figure 4-9 which shows a channel that had suffered both fracture and a seat being torn away, leaving only the remains of a welded connection, all of this indicating that they were still intact at the time of the collapse and not purposefully severed beforehand. Or, Figure 4-5, showing fractures and weld separations, again caused by mechanical force and indicating that they were in fact still connected (else they wouldn't have distorted the way they did). In short, instead of presuming conspiratorial narratives, you can look at how the recovered steel was distorted, note that the failure modes indicate that connections were still intact during collapse and failed due to the forces from the collapse, and use that as evidence to form your conclusions.

But "look for unusual activity on those floors"? After a jetliner impact? Really? How is that supposed to be separated from the general panic?

In sum:

1. Damage modes do not indicate puposeful separation/disconnection of core columns. In fact, they suggest the opposite.
2. Looking for "unusual activity" after a jet has impacted a building is like looking for North Pole snow planted on Antarctica: It's a dumb exercise who's fantasy premise is already falsified through another channel.

 

[femr2]

Or you can look at NCSTAR 1-3C and see for yourself the damage modes the columns and their connection points suffered. You can see the images of the various elements, such as Figure 4-9 which shows a channel that had suffered both fracture and a seat being torn away, leaving only the remains of a welded connection, all of this indicating that they were still intact at the time of the collapse and not purposefully severed beforehand. Or, Figure 4-5, showing fractures and weld separations, again caused by mechanical force and indicating that they were in fact still connected (else they wouldn't have distorted the way they did).

Are you suggesting that the figures show CC's from the region MT mentioned ?

 

[ElMondoHummus]

Are you suggesting that the figures show CC's from the region MT mentioned ?

Take a look at Figure 4-5 as one example: That shows core column 605A, which spanned the 98th through the 100th floor in WTC1. Which was exactly the tower and range Tom enumerated:

My point is that it doesn't require a genius to figure out how to initiate the WTC1 collapse...

All core column bolted connections in the collapse initiation zone are on floors 89, 92, 95, 98, 101, 104 about 3 feet above the flooring...

NCSTAR 1-3C shows more than the recovered core columns, by the way; it shows many other structural elements, including channels, spandrels, etc.

 

[femr2]

Take a look at Figure 4-5 as one example: That shows core column 605A, which spanned the 98th through the 100th floor in WTC1. Which was exactly the tower and range Tom enumerated

Okay.

Looking at the image on the LHS, the upper end (100) is quite mangled. The column length is buckled in the ~middle.

The bolted end (98) is fairly intact.

Can you think of any reason why that bolted end would not be as similarly mangled as the upper end (100) ?

 

[ElMondoHummus]

Okay.

Looking at the image on the LHS, the upper end (100) is quite mangled. The column length is buckled in the ~middle.

The bolted end (98) is fairly intact.

Can you think of any reason why that bolted end would not be as similarly mangled as the upper end (100) ?

Fairly intact? Yes, even including the fact that the bolts were still there:

How many simple ways can you think of to knock the top column section off the bottom one with minimal force? Why not just remove a few bolts with a wrench? Why not all of them?

...All core column bolted connections in the collapse initiation zone are on floors 89, 92, 95, 98, 101, 104 about 3 feet above the flooring...

... and you were even the one to point that one element refuting MT's thesis. So now that that's settled, you can move on to notice the obvious distortion on that very end you were noting was "fairly intact". I don't think the wide flange column was designed that way, so what might have happened to have distorted it like that?

-----

Regardless, what does any nitpicks like the ones you bring up matter? The point is that the failure modes suggests connectivity to other structural elements was present. If you're trying to defend Tom's thesis that someone would have undone the bolts on a column, then you need to do better than trying to advocate for the notion that a column connection on a fire floor was manually undone by some nefarious schemer involved in some plot to destroy the towers.

You really need to drop this. Major_Tom retailed an utterly ignorant narrative, and there's no point in you trying to defend it. All you do is damage your own credibility by doing so.

 

[femr2]

Fairly intact? Yes, even including the fact that the bolts were still there

(I can never see the qimg embeds by the way)

... and you were even the one to point that one element refuting MT's thesis.

That's one thing I think is far too common around here...jumping to conclusions. It's rife.

Perhaps MT has a certain set of columns in mind, rather than all of them ?

The horseshoe shape of the plate tear is curious. I'll have a think about it.

notice the obvious distortion on that very end you were noting was "fairly intact". I don't think the wide flange column was designed that way, so what might have happened to have distorted it like that?

That's the question I asked. Any thoughts ? My query is relative to the utterly mashed up upper end. They are very different, yes ?

There's also the question of how it buckled in the middle of the column, given that it's a three floor length, and each floor has cross-bracing which has all been stripped. Shall have a look at the bracing connections for that column.

Regardless, what does any nitpicks like the ones you bring up matter?

If it helps to understand the initiation process, it's worth my time.

 

[Sam.I.Am]

Looking At your image I see the perimeter of the core columns at the same height as each other but I don't see any of the core columns closer to the center of the core at the same height. It does look like there are more core columns one and two floors down from the top of the cores perimeter columns as you move inwards from the outside of the core.

 

[Newtons Bit]

It looks like the connection plates failed by tension yielding there. That's not something that a demolition team can do to cause a collapse. The collapse itself causes it.

 

[Major_Tom]

ElMondoHummus writes: "NCSTAR 1-3C shows more than the recovered core columns, by the way; it shows many other structural elements, including channels, spandrels, etc."


How many core column pieces were recovered from the collapse initiation zone of WTC2?

One.

How many core column pieces were recovered from the collapse initiation zone of WTC1?

Two. The piece labeled HH shown in the last few posts and another piece labeled C-80 is column 603 from floors 92-93.

Of the 94 (47x2) column sections which pass through the crucial 98th floor of WTC1, NIST managed to recover only one and you are looking at it:

This column is interesting but it is the absence of the other 93 pieces from the investigation which is much, much more interesting.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

It is pretty obvious to most of us that careful examination of the 47 column sections spanning floors 98 to 101 and the 47 column sections spanning floors 98 to 95 would show us all we need to know. For example, if these columns were pretty straight on the whole, lacking significant signs of visco-plastic creep and buckle hinges, that would tell us there was no collective core buckling.

Instead, we get to look at only one piece of one column.

 

[carlitos]

The same amount of proof has been offered for:
- explosives
- bolt removal
- mothra

Pathetic.