Examples of U.S. Soverign Citizen (Freeman on the Land) Failures

[jsfisher]

It doesn't need that kind of help, does it?

Nope.

 

[tsig]

So I was only wrong on the toll road? That is hardly agreeing with my critics.

Also not paying a toll is NOT theft, there is no damaged or stolen road. It is a fee which is legal by the consent of using the road.

you made no mention of using the road and not paying the toll, which is what i think you meant.

Originally Posted by Ladewig View Post
I asked these questions because I thought that the posters accusing you of selectively choosing which laws to follow were being unfair. You had clearly stated that crimes that have victims are mala in se so there was a bright line defining your distinction.

Now I have to agree with your critics. Using a toll road and not paying the toll is stealing from the road's owner. There is clear harm and a clear victim. Theft of services is still theft.


Seems like he did mention it.

 

[Bluekush623]

How can questions related to a government's jurisdiction be off-topic or inappropriate in a thread in which the last three pages have been devoted to government having or not having a right to pass laws and levy taxes. The whole thread hinges on this issue? Why won't you answer?


ETA: thanks for answering all the other questions

Because what a sales tax should for "used for" is not about jurisdiction.

 

[tsig]

Unless you don't consent to being locked up. Then it's okay.

Maybe I'll try being a Freeman on the Forum. I just won't consent to warnings or yellow cards.

This should turn out well.


Are there any Freewomen on the Land? If not this movement is doomed.

 

[Bluekush623]

I love it when he does this to himself.

You just agreed that everyone should be paying their taxes, since failing to do so would make you in violation of a mala in se, which you said everyone should follow. By not paying your taxes and taking advantage of government benefits - like roads and fire protection - you are stealing from a public agency.

Thanks for playing, come again!

Hold on now.

Stealing something is different then benefiting from something you didn't pay for especially when you DID NOT ask for the service or attempt to obtain it by fraudulent purposes.

Like I said LID you mend words and situations only to benefit your argument
In his question.

Try again.

 

[JimBenArm]

Because what a sales tax should for "used for" is not about jurisdiction.

As usual, a one-sentence "answer" devoid of any real information, just assertion.
You fail to realize that just stating something is so is just your (un)informed opinion, and carries less weight than virtually anyone else's, due to your lack of any factual information, nonsensically formed sentences, and reliance on websites posted by greedy hucksters and morons.

So, instead of just coming out and saying what it is about, and what it should be used for, you post this pathetic nonsense.

But pathetic nonsense is all you have. How (ahem) pathetic!

 

[Bluekush623]

That is because they have removed themselves from the geographical jurisdiction of the Crown. I think there was some little incident back in the 1770s.

If you want to ignore the laws of a particular country, you need to leave that country's jurisdiction, whether by emigration or (if you can get enough pals involved) secession. If you want to stay in the jurisdiction but not obey the laws, then you will need to get those laws repealed.

some failed propaganda.

 

[Bluekush623]

But it's not 100 years ago.

You maintain that Freemen can co-exist with the current US government.

I ask "how could you do this unless it's off the land in the wilderness?"

Your response is that you don't have to "buy anything."

Please elaborate - how could one live in a populated area without buying anything? To start, where would you live?

many scenarios.

point is, it is not impossible.

 

[Elizabeth I]

Oh jeez, talk about grasping at air. Im not even going to reply to that scenario.

So you have no answer? Or was the example too long for your limited attention span? Or is the blue haze screwing with your comprehension?

If it wasnt for "this society" people could live off the land just like 100 years ago.

When will you be ceasing your internet use, then?

many scenarios.

Let's see one of those scenarios, since you couldn't follow mine.

Put an end to the speculation then. Do you have an income? Do you pay taxes?

Well, see, he's at a real disadvantage with this question - if he admits he pays taxes then he's just spit all over his FOTL principles. If he admits he doesn't have a job and doesn't pay taxes, he proves what the rest of us have been saying this whole time.

 

[Architect]

knob and tube wiring

You know, in the UK and Antipodes, we'd assume you were talking about something rude.

 

[Architect]

Hold on now.
Stealing something is different then benefiting from something you didn't pay for especially when you DID NOT ask for the service or attempt to obtain it by fraudulent purposes.

Actually, no, it's not. The legal term is "Theft by Taking".

 

[Bluekush623]

I can answer that one. I forgot about common law because in your post you said, "However they need your consent to claim jurisdiction over a you." You did not say, excepting Common Law, a government needs consent. Furthermore, at no point in this thread have you you have ever said local, state, or federal governments have the right and jurisdiction to enforce any laws at all. In addition, you have not acknowledged that local, state, or federal governments have the right to tax people in order to fund a police force.

Feel free to clear that up right now. Can taxes(of any sort) be used to hire police forces to arrest violent criminals?

Because under common law there is no nothing to consent to. You consent to the common law when you commit the criminal act.

because they dont have the right to enforce all laws. one has to consent to both common law (by committing the act) and to legality (by accepting the contract) to be bound by jurisdiction.

Yes taxes can be collected but they need your consent.

If you guys actually read your arguments you would realize how fascist/communistic/socialistic you make America out to be. America is not ruled by "Divine Right of the King/People or Government/ it is consent of the governed.

 

[Bluekush623]

Because it is absurd to think that freeman can privately pay for a security force that can protect the U.S. from invasion. A publicly-funded army is the only workable solution.

Please understand no matter what the organization it is it is still private even if it is a government service because only its citizens/customers are entitled to its benefits.

there is no institution that is public in the sense of the matter as earth (water/oxygen/soil).

We again have people mis understanding ideas due to jumping to conclusions.

What Im asking is why cant a freeman pay privately to the United States Corporation for services such as fire protection/security, instead of having to pay publicly through taxes?

Also to say private companies only fail compared too publicly (government) ran services is a fallacy in itself.

 

[kerikiwi]

Hold on now.

Stealing something is different then benefiting from something you didn't pay for especially when you DID NOT ask for the service or attempt to obtain it by fraudulent purposes.

Like I said LID you mend words and situations only to benefit your argument
In his question.

Stealing something is, indeed different from stealing a service. But stealing it still is.
By using the service you are implying a request for the service. If you don't want it, don't use it.
And I would have to agree that by stealing the service you are not being fraudulent, just as it is not fraud to steal a car.

The last sentence is nonsensical.

 

[kerikiwi]

many scenarios.

point is, it is not impossible.

Well of course it is not impossible. You can steal from others.

 

[kerikiwi]

Please understand no matter what the organization it is it is still private even if it is a government service because only its citizens/customers are entitled to its benefits.

there is no institution that is public in the sense of the matter as earth (water/oxygen/soil).

We again have people mis understanding ideas due to jumping to conclusions.

What Im asking is why cant a freeman pay privately to the United States Corporation for services such as fire protection/security, instead of having to pay publicly through taxes?

Also to say private companies only fail compared too publicly (government) ran services is a fallacy in itself.

Perhaps you could come back when you have come down.
Your posts are incoherent.

 

[Elizabeth I]

What Im asking is why cant a freeman pay privately to the United States Corporation for services such as fire protection/security, instead of having to pay publicly through taxes?

The answer to this is simplicity itself. Please try to follow along:

Because if paying for these services were private and voluntary, not enough people would pay to make it possible to provide them.

 

[Ladewig]

t.

If you guys actually read your arguments you would realize how fascist/communistic/socialistic you make America out to be. America is not ruled by "Divine Right of the King/People or Government/ it is consent of the governed.

Excuse me while I roll my eyes. I suggest that taxes be levied against everyone to pay for a police force that arrests murderers and you label that philosophy as fascist. Do you even understand what that word means? I am going to have to agree with the other posters: freeloaders on the land is the most accurate description. You want the benefit of being protected against violent crimes without paying any contributions.

Thank you for answering all my questions. I will not be asking any more because I now have a complete picture of your version of FOTL. It is a laughable and foolish political system that is inherently unsupportable. In the General Politics subforum there is a thread advocating anarchism. I can see no difference between your flavor of FOTL and the anarchism described in that thread.



________________________________________
ETA: I just want to add one more government supplied benefit that the FOTL enjoy but don't want to pay for: A widely-accepted currency that is hard to counterfeit but is accepted by foreigners.

 

[jsfisher]

What Im asking is why cant a freeman pay privately to the United States Corporation for services such as fire protection/security, instead of having to pay publicly through taxes?

You have already answered that question yourself. The system doesn't work that way. Even though you'd like it to be otherwise, and you claim the moral high-ground in the process, the system doesn't recognize your theory of law and order.

What is it you expect to gain by bucking the system you already admitted was de facto in charge?

 

[tsig]

Because under common law there is no nothing to consent to. You consent to the common law when you commit the criminal act.

because they dont have the right to enforce all laws. one has to consent to both common law (by committing the act) and to legality (by accepting the contract) to be bound by jurisdiction.

Yes taxes can be collected but they need your consent.

If you guys actually read your arguments you would realize how fascist/communistic/socialistic you make America out to be. America is not ruled by "Divine Right of the King/People or Government/ it is consent of the governed.

You give your consent by remaining in America.